how much difference does retarding dough make?
just a quick question.
would retarding dough in bulk or proof stage give my bread a more open crumb?
I generally make my sourdough within one day. The night before i make my bread I make a levain and do a pre-mix of flour water and salt. The following day i mix dough and levain, rest for 30 minutes and then start bulk fermentation.
During bulk i do 3 stretch and folds every 30 minutes and then rest for approximately 3.5 - 4 hours in microwave which i use as proofing box (roughly 24C/75F) I then preshape - rest for 30 minutes, shape and then proof in microwave for 1.5 - 2 hours until poke test tells me im ready to bake.
I get a good oven spring, a nice tasting bread but the crumb could be a bit better (although it is improving).
has anyone any thoughts on the matter?
infact let me put it another way. Is retarding dough really just a scheduling issue....I enjoy making in a single day and it fits my schedule as i work from home so am i better off doing just that....?
Retarding the dough is mostly about flavor. However, it is often easier to work with a high hydration dough that comes out of the fridge. So, it may protect an open crumb insofar as it requires less handling and is easier to work with cold. That is the case mostly for the bulk ferment, I find.
What is your hydration and what kind of flour are you using?
Since the autolyse and bulk ferment takes up the majority of my day, I prefer to retard my bread overnight so I can bake it the next day and have it be fresh rather than bake it the night before and eat it the next day. Retarding also elongates the fermentation process which greatly affects the flavor and texture because a slower rise strengthens the dough. Can you describe the crumb or post a picture? Crumb can also have a lot to do with handling (how firm or gentle your folds were and the time between each one). Also what is the hydration level of the bread you usually make? :)
im going to try retarding over the weekend...i dont have any photos but my crumb is good - i dont have very large holes in the crumb but my hydration is only 67% so dont expect a tartine style crumb - having said that my crumb is getting better as im getting into a groove with my own technique....ive been trying so many different ways of doing things im finally settling into a pattern....i think pat of my problem has been baking times as well...i get great spring and colour but am paranoid about gumminess so have been over baking (up to 65 minutes) so am going to work on that next....i tend to do 3 stretch and folds every half hour in first 2 hours of bulk and then rest until its aerated..im careful about moving it onto counter before pre-shape, rest and shape. I get good surface tension so thats all good. i guess im in ap osition where i want to experiment as much as possible but am limited because theres only so much bread you can eat so progress is slow and determined by how long loaf takes to eat.....thats what makes this forum so good....
for me, retarding is primarily about time...creating a baking time-table that works for me (it also provides more flexibility regarding when things need to be dealt with...I can put things off for hours, rather than minutes). It also means dough that is easier to handle and score, as well as adding a bit of flavor development.
I would agree that the effect on crumb may be more about protecting open crumb as much as, or more than, creating it.
thanks for that - yep thought it was mostly about flavour - i use strong bread flour/wholemeal flour (im in ireland so we're same as UK) with protein content of 13+% my sourdoughs range from 67% - 70% hydration but i know that European flours absorb less than american flour so my dough hydration is probably equivalent to 75+% in america.....(i think) my shaping is good with minimum handling. cold shaping with high hydration dough makes sense....i must try retarding though but currently it doesnt suit my scheduling...i did 2 weeks in a bakery and there we mixed 8 kilos of 80% hydration dough at 4am and then retarded it til 2am the following morning, then shaped, proofed and baked it. At home im making bread for my wife and daughter so cant really take that approach :)
All else being equal, a retarded loaf has greater potential for open crumb than a non-retarded loaf. Cold dough has a greater capacity to hold gasses -- it can hold more gas at a lower volume since gasses condense at colder temps. Put another way, if you have two loaves of the same dough at the same volume -- the only difference being that one was retarded and one was proofed at room temp -- the retarded loaf will contain a greater amount of gas (since it requires a greater amount of cold dense gas to fill the same volume as warm less-dense gas).
Additionally, cold stiff dough is less delicate than warm soft dough -- it can better stand up to the burden of supporting a greater volume of proof in total without collapsing.
So when retarding, you get a dough that holds a greater density of gas and can also withstand a greater volume rise than warmer dough. This can help to cause a massive ovenspring when the dense gasses expand in the oven (if the dough was retarded after shaping and baked while still cold). More ovenspring creates a more open crumb.
Therefore, retarded loaves can have a better and fuller shape (especially if using wetter dough) and a more open crumb than their warmer proofed counterparts (again, all else being equal).
That said, flavor will also change. Many folks like the tangier flavor that comes from retarded dough. For them, it's a win-win. They get a better flavor and a more open crumb to boot. Some folks prefer the flavor of warm-proofed dough. For them, they have to choose what's more important . . . open crumb or flavor?
Personally, I tend to prefer the flavor of loaves proofed at room temp. And though I like the crumb that can be achieved via retardation, I don't place as high a value on crumb structure as I do on flavor. So I don't retard my loaves all that often.
Nonetheless, an open crumb and full shape can certainly be achieved without retarding. Open crumb is 80% proper fermentation and dough handling. Retardation falls only within the 20%. It can help to open up your crumb, but it cannot correct for poor fermentation and handling.
Fermentation and handling are skills that can only be acquired with time and practice. This is something that you are already experiencing -- your crumb has been improving over time. Just what one would expect as skill improves. It's important that bakers seeking that elusive open crumb focus on the 80% -- fermentation and handling -- rather than getting caught up and lost within the 20%.
That's not to say one shouldn't retard in an effort to improve their crumb. Experimentation is the only way to find what works best for us. But don't rely on it to achieve your crumb. If your fermentation and handling are good, then retardation can enhance the crumb even further. But if they are not so good, retardation will not save the loaf.
And of course, if you prefer the flavor of cold-proofed dough to warm-proofed dough, then that's reason enough to retard your loaves.
Cheers!
Trevor
Hi Trevor thanks for that clear explanation. Your breadwerx site has been a revelation for me. I use your overnight pre-mix technique which works wonders and like you say on the site have been concentrating on getting technique right at lower hydration levels before getting wetter.
I made a classic newbie error by diving into high hydration - in order to get a very open crumb - without taking baby steps but am now ready to move on. Im not obsessed with open crumb but am looking for a diverse crumb with a good chew. I finally have it. I think the major problem home bakers have is control over all the variables; temperature, space, time and the fact that you can only make a small number of loaves at any one time so the learning curve is slower. When I did a two week stint in an artisan bakery everything was made in a very controlled environment and at a higher volume so the amount learnt was incredible. Anyway im going to retard some dough using same recipe over the weekend and see what the difference is....again many thanks for your post, your knowledge and if anyone else is reading this i suggest they go to http://www.breadwerx.com/ and check out the videos.
Like your choice of music by the way....