The Fresh Loaf

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Sourdough Interior

alonewitheverybody's picture
alonewitheverybody

Sourdough Interior

Hi all, I have been baking the basic sourdough bread using the Tartine method at 76% hydration. The only thing that I didnt have is the Dutch Oven but I put a pan of boiling water into the oven for 20mins to create the steaming effect in the oven. I juz couldn't understand why the bread is always ended up sticky and gummy (as photo enclosed)I have tried baking it at a lower temperature at 350 degrees for an hour but it didn't help either. I have tried removing the whole wheat and rye flour and replaced with AP flour but this didn't help either. Being in Singapore of tropical weather, I have created a consistent temperature of 80 degrees for the levain and bulk fermentation by putting a couple of freezer packs in the oven. Is there any important part that I have missed out completely? Or will a Dutch Oven will make a difference here?

As this is my fourth time baking the sourdough, appreciate if you can give me some comments on how my bread turnout. I have been going out buying and tasting the sourdoughs available in town juz for comparison. I know I have to improve on the scoring technique though. Thanks a million.

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

To make helpful comments we need to know your recipe and the build progression. That being said the fact that you're in Singapore may indicate that fermentation at all stages may be more rapid than the Tartine recipe calls for resulting in a slightly over proofed loaf. Two actions might slow things down a bit. One is to lower the hydration a few points to 70-72% the other is to reduce bulk and proofing times by 10-20%. I'd try reducing the bulk and proofing times before attempting to reduce the hydration. An improvement in oven spring will indicate that you're on the right course correction.

Bonne Cuison,

Wild-Yeast

alonewitheverybody's picture
alonewitheverybody

Hi, the recipe is as follows:

AP flour 82%, Whole wheat flour 12%, Rye flour 5%, Water 76%, Salt 2% and Levain 20%. What I did was:

1) Autolyse for 1hr under 80 degrees environment. The room temperature in my house is about 85 degrees.

2) Bulk fermentation for 4hrs under 80 degrees environment. I folded the dough 4 times every 30mins and each time 5 rounds.

3) After the pre-shape, bench rest and final shaping, the dough was put in the fridge for 20hrs.

4) I baked at 450 degrees (with steam) for 20mins, then reduce to 320 degrees for 60mins (without steam).

5) I left it to cool overnight and sliced it the next day.

If I were to reduce the bulk and proofing time, how much will it be? Thanks.

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

In my very limited experience, I have had the interior end up sticky / gummy / seemingly under-cooked (even at 210 degrees F internal temp) when my fermenting / proofing times were off.  I have found that using the table referenced in this post: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5381/sourdough-rise-time-table (and here's the table: http://www.wraithnj.com/breadpics/rise_time_table/bread_model_bwraith.htm) to give me a rough schedule to work from gets me more consistently good results.

When using this table, keep in mind that your dough will take time to drop to refrigerator temperatures, and so will keep fermenting / proofing for a while (likely an hour or two, depending on your fridge and the size of the dough) after you put it in there.

Based on a consistent temperature of 80 degrees, 10% pre-fermented flour (20% levain at 100% hydration), and 2% salt, then  you have at the most 4 hours of bulk ferment time (including mixing / kneading and stretch-and-fold) and then 2 hours of proofing (including pre-shaping time, bench rest, and shaping).  Assuming it takes about 90 minutes for the dough to cool in the fridge, you should be taking no more than 30 minutes max for pre-shaping, bench rest, final shaping and baking straight from the fridge.

Just to give yourself a bit more room on the timing, I would suggest dropping the size of the levain to 10% (for 5% pre-fermented flour), and just putting that amount of flour and water in to the autolyse to keep the final recipe the same.  That should get you closer to 7-1/2 hours from the time that the levain hits the flour until it needs to be baked (instead of the 6 hours that you've got now).

I hope this helps, and keep baking happy!

alonewitheverybody's picture
alonewitheverybody

Hi IceDemeter, thanks for the advice! However, I would like to clarify:

1) On the part where you mentioned "dropping the size of the levain to 10% (for 5% pre-fermented flour) and just putting that amount of flour and water into the autolyse to keep the final recipe the same" Are you suggesting to half the levain and use that half (flour and water) and put them into the main dough for autolyse instead. Is my understanding correct?

2) On the part where you mentioned " that should get you closer to 7-1/2 hours from the time that the levain hits the flour until it needs to baked". What I did was when the levain hits the flour, I will do the bulk fermentation for 4hrs and perhaps add another 30-40 mins for the pre shape and final shape before putting into the fridge for 20 hrs. Hence how do you arrive at 7-1/2 hours?

Thanks

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

1 - Yes.  As an example, let's say that your original recipe was for 1000g flour (100%), and your 20% levain was 200g (100g or 10% flour and 100g or 10% water).  If you change the levain to 10% at 100g (50g or 5% flour and 50g or 5% water) then you would have to increase the unfermented flour in the autolyse by 50g (was 900g, now 950g) and also increase the water in the autolyse by 50g.  Basically, you will end up with the same amount of flour and water in the recipe, but less of it will be in the levain and more in the autolyse.

2 - If you reference the table that I linked, it gives you a good starting point to figure out bulk ferment and proofing times for your own personal temperatures (keeping in mind that recipes from others are based on their conditions - and so will need to be modified if our conditions are different).

According to the table, your current recipe using 20% levain (10% pre-fermented flour) at 80 degrees F will allow for roughly 4 hours of bulk ferment (including mixing time and stretch-and-folds), and then 2 hours of proofing (including pre-shaping, bench rest, and shaping) before it will be over-proofed.  This gives you a total of 6 hours at room temps (slightly less with more whole grains in the mix) to work with.

If you are not including your mixing time in your 4 hours of bulk ferment, then you are over fermenting at that stage and need to shorten that.

For most refrigerators, taking a lump of dough at 80 degrees or warmer and getting it cooled down to 37 degrees or less so that fermentation almost stops will take at least 1-1/2 to 2 hours.  Since you are using up 30-40 minutes of your proofing time by pre-shaping and shaping, that means that the dough is already to the point of being over-proofed by the time it has cooled to fridge temperature.  Fermentation does not completely stop at that temperature, so it continues to over-proof more over the course of the 20 hours in the refrigerator (although very slowly).

Again according to the table, if you change  your recipe to using just 10% levain (5% pre-fermented flour) then it increases the amount of time at room temperature to just over 5 hours for bulk ferment and still 2 hours for proofing, for a total of just under 7-1/2 hours.  That change will allow for the amount of time that it takes for your dough to cool down in the fridge and prevent over-proofing.

Hopefully this makes more sense!

The reason why the mantra is to "watch the dough and not the clock" is that there is no firm formula taking in to consideration all of the different possible conditions that we have every time we bake.  The recipe gives you a starting point, the table gives you a rough idea of how to make changes to the recipe based on temperatures, but you still will need to keep an eye on the dough since hydration, elevation, types of flours, barometric pressure, and other variables can still have an impact. 

You already have a good starting point, so just need to do some experimenting to see what changes you need to make.  I hope that the table that I linked gives you some data that might help you in determining which changes you want to try first.

Good luck, and keep baking happy!