The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Ken Forkish recipes using a mixer?

LeoD's picture
LeoD

Ken Forkish recipes using a mixer?

Hi,

I've had success making recipes from "Flour Water Salt Yeast" by Ken Forkish, kneading the dough by hand, doing stretch and folds.

Then I tried the same recipes on the Kitchenaid mixer and didn't get good results. I used the KA on speed 4, kneading for 15 to 20 minutes, but having intervals like: 7m, pause 20m, 7m, pause 20m, 5m.

With the KA the bread came out more dense, with less / smaller holes.

I'm happy to continue using hands and leave the mixer, at home, but... I'm considering scaling up things and opening a bread business later in the year. My goal is to try / experiment with recipes at home. But if I have a business I'll need a mixer there and will have to deal with bigger quantities of dough.

Can you achieve good results with an industrial spiral mixer? If yes, how to reproduce that with the Kitchenaid (if that is possible?)

I guess I'm just wondering... if this isn't working with the KA, will it work with a commercial mixer?

Thanks!

 

 

 

Colin2's picture
Colin2

Which recipes?

" KA on speed 4, kneading for 15 to 20 minutes, but having intervals like: 7m, pause 20m, 7m, pause 20m, 5m." -- That's still a whole lot of kneading, no?  The only recipes where I might use a KA like that are super-hydration ones like coccodrillo.  Basically - others will correct me - the point of folding is that you are developing just enough dough strength to keep the loaf's shape and character while *avoiding* the kind of thorough kneading that produces an even crumb.  

For that kind of dough I usually do initial mixing in the KA because I'm lazy, but just to the point that the dough is mixed and relatively uniform, i.e. you can see some ropy gluten development but you're still a long way from a windowpane-test-passing dough.

My sense from Forkish's book is that he does folds on a large scale in his bakery too, but I have zero experience at the commercial scale.  If I had your business ambitions, though, I would put the Forkish book aside and work from Hamelman, who writes for commercial bakers, with instructions about mixers and so forth, and also includes enough guidance for the home baker.  

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Leo,

I almost never use a mixer, but from what you write I will tell you that you are severely over mixing your dough.  Additionally, the resting time between mixing phases is way too long.  It is difficult to over-mix dough by hand, but machine mixing is a different ballgame.  Reference this How To Calculate Mixing Time excerpt from Advanced Bread and Pastry written by Michel Suas, the principal owner of the SFBI.  

Mr. Forkish's doughs were designed to be hand mixed, which doesn't mean they can't be machine mixed, but you have to get a better understanding of how to do it.

alan

AlanG's picture
AlanG

Almost all the bread recipes I use come from Hamelman's book.  Since his book is oriented towards the commercial baker, the recipes always involve an electric mixer.  I think Alan's point above is correct, you were mixing too long and at too high a speed.  My sourdough recipe and method borrows from both David Snyder's San Joaquin recipe as well as Hamelman's Norwich version.  I use the KA mixer on speed 1 to mix the dough into a 'shaggy mess' which usually takes 30-40 seconds.  Thirty minutes later it gets 2 1/2 minutes at speed 2 to promote gluten development.  Rest of the procedure is manual S&Fs.  this leads to a very reproducible procedure and frees up time for me to do other things than a lot of hand mixing. 

The only dough that gets hand mixed from start to finish is pizza dough.  But since I cook pizza for two, that's not a bid deal.

LeoD's picture
LeoD

Colin, Alfanso, Alan, thanks very much for your comments :-) They're very helpful.

Ok, so I understand that I am kneading (or over mixing) too much with the KA.

Also understand that, to get better results, I should try to mix with the KA in low speed and for a brief time, followed by usual stretch and folds.

That sounds good, I'm happy with that approach.

I'm wondering how commercial bakers do when they need to produce, let's say, 80 loaves, each with 700g (which totals to 56kg of dough), in a day? Would they still do strech and folds with that amount of dough? How?

I was not familiar with Hamelman's book. That's my next reading definitely :-)

Thanks again
Leo

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I agree with the preceding replies. You are over-mixing. Since you mention that your machine mixed loaves have smaller holes, I thought you might be interested in why.

Mechanical mixing is stretching and folding the dough, just like doing it by hand, except that the machine's motions are stereotypic - always the same, turn after turn. When you fold dough, you are folding long strands of gluten over each other. As it bulk ferments, gluten molecules form weak chemical bonds between adjacent molecules. These bonds create the structure of the alveoli, the gluten pockets that contain the CO2 produced by fermentation.

If the folding is very regular, the network of gluten is like woven fabric. (Or commercial supermarket bread. Yuck!) If the folding is more chaotic (in a good sense), well, imagine dumping a pot of well-cooked spaghetti in a bowl. That results in the pattern of random distribution of varying sized holes we associate with artisan loaves. 

If you don't machine mix very much and develop gluten further with S&F's during bulk fermentation, the difference in crumb structure can be minimized. If you mix too much, you get what you got. In addition, you probably oxidized most of the flavor-providing carotenoid pigments in the wheat flour. 

What do commercial bakers do? That varies a lot. Those that are truly "artisan bakers" (IMO) generally do brief machine mixing followed by S&F's during bulk fermentation. The BF is usually done in plastic bins holding maybe 20 Kg or so of dough, and that's how much is S&F'd at a time. I'm not going to describe the exact mechanics of this, but there are many youtube videos available for your viewing.

Hope this helps.

David

AlanG's picture
AlanG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0AHPGfkECI  is a video of Mark Sinclair who used to post on this forum preparing for the indoor market sales in Bozeman MT.  He prepares a variety of different products and you can see the large plastic bin of dough and how he handles it.  It's all very instructive. 

For those that don't know, Mark has moved his bread trailer and truck to Spain.  I don't do Facebook so I don't know all the details or if this is a permanent move.  My daughter was in Bozeman for a wedding last summer and stopped by his truck and bought some pastries.  She said that her dad (me) sent her the video of the trailer and he thought that was pretty funny.

Also:  as David notes you need to minimize the mechanical mixing at the beginning.

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I think you need to remove the 'dot' in the middle of the word "youtube" for the link to work. :)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

AlanG's picture
AlanG

I don't know how the URL got jumbled like that.

LeoD's picture
LeoD

David, amazing explanation, thank you.

Alan, thanks for the video, it's very interesting! For others who want to view it, the URL that worked for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0AHPGfkECI

PS: this is my first topic here in the forum, I'm really enjoying it. I'm from Brazil (you may have noticed my broken English).

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

That is a whole lot of the most well-behaved bread dough I've ever seen. I'd love to know his formula and technique for the bulk ferment, that results in that silky but not sticky dough - gorgeous!

I cannot believe that one person makes all that bread, including buns and pastries, in one day. Phew - I get tired making 15 - 30 loaves for one day, without the finicky pastries! Ah well, I am the Lazy Loafer, after all. :)

AlanG's picture
AlanG

that has all the prep stuff inside.  Check out this video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCfMZMDj5n4

I told my wife I wanted one of these so I could start my own bakery!!!!  Her response was a gale of laughter.

pmitc34947's picture
pmitc34947

I could watch these prep videos all day long... Very impressive!!