The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

First Sour Dough Loaf

Outdoor's picture
Outdoor

First Sour Dough Loaf

So i did my first loaf last week.  It was good and tasty, but maybe a bit too tough?  More like Ace baguette texture.  Looking for more of a french loaf consistency.  Very soft on inside, slightly crispy on outside.

 

I cooked it in my dutch oven for 25-30min covered then another 25 uncovered.

 

I'm a little confused as to how much kneading i needed to do.  I needed quite a bit until i could to the window test.  See through dough.  then let rise for couple hours.  lightly rekneaded, shaped and let sit overnight.  It rose quite a bit in bowl but then collapsed as i tried to take it out.  Is that why is was maybe denser than i would have liked?

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

First, try using a blend of bread flour and all-purpose flour (assuming you use a high protein flour). That will make the crust and crumb a bit more tender. You can also add a little bit (half a tablespoon) of olive oil to the dough to make it softer.

Second, I'm a fairly strong advocate of working the dough until it is stretchy and strong (meaning I think you're doing the right thing kneading to window pane). Some people feel differently, but I find if I underwork the dough the loaves tend to be flatter and more dense, because the gluten structure isn't strong enough to support a good rise.

Third, if it collapsed when you took it out of the bowl (assuming the bowl was where you did the final proof), it was probably overproofed. Where did it sit overnight? On the counter or in the fridge? If in the fridge, is the temperature 4C or warmer? At any rate, collapsing is a sign of overproofing, at which point it's not really salvageable. Try putting a small, golf-ball sized lump of the same dough into a straight sided shot glass or little measuring glass at the same time you shape the dough for the final proof. Watch and see how long it takes at room temperature to increase 1.5 times, or to double (probably a bit too much if doubled). The dough proofing in your bowl should be baked before it doubles (depending on what blend of flour you use; whole grains require less proofing and will over-proof more quickly).

Outdoor's picture
Outdoor

I did accidentally put too much starter in, so maybe that is why it was over proofed?  The problem is time....

I mixed and kneaded night before.  Let it rise overnight, first thing when i got up, i was ready to bake.  Am i supposed to get up in the middle of night and check ?

 

I'm also getting confused with all the steps.  Mix, ferment, rise, knead, shape proof.  What order?

Do i mix and knead till i get a window then ferment for 2 hours or overnight, then preshape, rest shape and proof?

 

I mixed, kneaded.  Rested 2 hours. Shaped and then let sit (Proof?) overnight

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I know, it's very confusing and you'll get all kinds of opinions, because people make bread in all kinds of different ways. Here's my take on the 'primer':

  1. Mixing is when you mix up the starter, water, flour and other ingredients. The main variation at this stage is something called the autolyse, where you mix up some of the ingredients (usually just the flour and water but sometimes the flour, water and starter) and let it sit for a while (often around 30 minutes) to rest and absorb the water before proceeding. After you add the salt (and the starter, if not in the mix already) you should mix it until the dough is strong and stretchy. This can take 20 minutes by hand sometimes, or six to eight minutes in a stand mixer.
  2. Bulk ferment - once the gluten is developed (i.e. the stretchy structure you got from mixing), you need to let the yeasts do their work, digesting the food in the dough and producing gases. This is what makes the dough increase in size and get lighter and more pouffy. The time and temperature for this stage varies a lot, and depends on things like how much starter you used and what kind(s) of flour. For a plain sourdough with 1 part starter, 2 parts water and 3 parts unbleached flour (all by weight, not volume), I will usually let it sit at room temperature for 4 to 5 hours until it shows strong signs of increasing size and lightness, then I'll put it in the fridge overnight where it will more or less stop fermenting and just develop flavour (the yeasts won't be active but the bacteria will be)
  3. Shape - the fermented dough is manipulated to re-distribute the yeasts and their gases so it can rise again more evenly, without large pockets in some places and dense heavy dough in others. What a lot of people do is stretch the dough out gently, poking any big bubbles, then fold it in thirds (letter fold) or gather the edges into the middle (if forming a round loaf). Let it sit and relax for 20 minutes (this makes the dough easier to handle), then tighten the ball or 'log' into the final shape. There are a lot of different techniques for this, but the general idea is to form a tight shape without big bubbles trapped inside.
  4. Proof - the shaped dough is allowed to rise again, now that the yeasts have access to more food. Opinions and techniques diverge here as to whether it's better to proof for a shorter period of time at room temperature, or a longer period of time in the fridge. This is the stage where you need to be careful because if the dough overproofs there's not much you can do about it, so I like to proof at room temperature and watch it carefully. The poke test is fairly reliable for a simple white sourdough - poke a floured finger or knuckle gently into the risen dough and see if the indent springs back. If it does, strongly and quickly, the dough is not ready to bake yet. If it doesn't spring back at all but the dent remains (or worse, the dough collapses), it is over-proofed. If it springs back partially and slowly it is probably good to go in the oven. If you proof overnight in the fridge and your fridge is not cold enough to completely stop the yeast action, you run the risk of it being over-proofed. I hate to get up in the middle of the night to check, myself, which is why I rarely use this method!

It sounds like you are almost there as far as your technique goes. Try the overnight bulk ferment and then shaping and doing the final proof at room temperature the next morning, just to see if that works for you. It will vary depending on the time of year (and how warm and/or humid your house it), and the recipe, but try it with a simple sourdough first and see how it goes. You can make changes after that, when you're more comfortable with the techniques.

 

Outdoor's picture
Outdoor

SO maybe that was another error.  I let it bulk ferment i guess in the oven overnight.  Too warm.

 

So how long does Proofing roughly take?

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Like most things, it depends. :) If I make a simple 1-2-3 sourdough (so, 100 grams of starter, 200 grams of water and 300 grams of mostly unbleached bread flour with 6 grams of salt), and retard it in the fridge overnight (part of the bulk ferment), I will usually take it out of the fridge in the morning, weigh it and pre-shape it, then let it rest for 20 minutes. After shaping and putting it in a basket or couche to proof I will usually let it do it's thing for around 2 hours before popping it in the oven.

AlanG's picture
AlanG

Yes, as with everything in life it depends.  My SD recipe is a variation of David Snyder's San Joaquin SD that I have adapted to fit my own needs and taste.  My usual recipe is for two 500gm batards with a bulk fermentation in the refrigerator over night.  In the morning the dough is split into two equal portions, roughly shaped and allowed to sit on the counter for one hour.  After the dough has relaxed for this period of time, it is shaped into a batard and placed between the folds of a linen couche for 30 more minutes so it's at room temperature for 90 minutes total before going into the oven.  I always get a nice bloom in the oven and have not encountered any issues other than an occasional problem with my slash such that I get a on the side.  Oven temperature is 460F for 15 minutes with steam followed by 420F with no steam but convection.  Bread is baked on a steel.

Outdoor's picture
Outdoor

Ok so i made the dough last night around 11pm.  Kneaded until i could do the window test.  Made enough for 2 loaves.  put in plastic bowl, covered with plastic and put in fridge overnight.  It appeared this morning at 10am that it had doubled.

 

I then split in two, roughly shaped them in round loaves.  and let sit for 35 min covered in plastic wrap.

 

I then reshaped and tightened.  they looked good.  i don't have proofing baskets so took a plastic bowl for one and a collander for the other.  put a linen in floured and let the dough sit for 2 hours.  They look like they rised, but not double, i don't think.

 

Put first one in the oven on baking stone 475  threw boiling water in pan under.after 15min, it looks like it is kind of flattened out maybe about 7-8in round and not rising.

 

I'm going to try the second loaf in dutch oven

estherc's picture
estherc

Take out of the fridge and go straight into the oven without bringing up to room temp.

I've done it both ways, room temp, and cold with the same batch of dough to see if it made a difference. It didn't. The cold dough is much easier to score for one. 

 

Arjon's picture
Arjon

The term "french loaf" can mean somewhat different things to different people. Even words like crispy and crusty are subject to personal interpretations; e.g. a loaf I consider moderately crusty might be very crusty to you. 

Have you made a yeasted loaf that fits what you want? If so, it shouldn't be difficult to convert the recipe to give you a similar SD one. 

Outdoor's picture
Outdoor

I'm not interested in conventional yeast loaf.  I have the starter.  It has been going since Dec 15th.  It has lots of bubbles in it.  I took it out thursday night, fed it.  Fed it again Friday morning and then last night (Fri)  it had lots of bubbles, i made the dough.  Then i fed it again, lots of bubbles, so sunday morning, will make pancakes.  THen will be left with about 1 cup, put back in fridge for the week

Arjon's picture
Arjon

If you don't want to bake with commercial yeast, that's up to you. Just be aware that the initial part of the learning curve is gentler if you do use it, basically because it lessens or eliminates some of the variability associated with SD. Accordingly, if you had made a yeasted version of what you're after, it would probably be a fair bit easier to convert it than to start from scratch, especially if (as it seems) you're not yet familiar with how your starter behaves under different conditions, how to assess how active or sluggish it is at any given moment, how various doughs look and feel when they're ready to bake, etc. 

Outdoor's picture
Outdoor

Ok, so my first loaf is flat 2-3 in.  I put second loaf in dutch oven and it is at browning stage uncovered now it definetely rose more about 5inch though not nice and evenly.  one side did not come up as much, wondering if it is because too large of pot?  Maybe i should have put the entire dough in as one loaf in dutch oven?  It called for 1000g of flour.  dutch oven is 10.5" round (at top)

Outdoor's picture
Outdoor

OK, I thought my second loaf turned out better because it rose more.  But when i cut into it the top was just a hollow cavern of air.

The 1st and 2nd loaf both tasted good though.

 

This bread making business is harder than i thought.  I'm a very structured person, so thought how hard can it be.  Just follow a recipe!!

Not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

But they do. That's why a new baker is more likely to get successful results from beginner-level recipes than from advanced or even intermediate ones.

Ru007's picture
Ru007

Could you post pictures of your loaves? I think it'll help us give better advice.

The cave at the top could be because of how you pre shaped the loaf. You might to have gotten rid of the large air pockets properly.

 

Outdoor's picture
Outdoor

I've eaten the loaves :)  with the help of others.  They all said they tasted good.

My starter is about 3 weeks old.