The Fresh Loaf

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SD Not Sour Enough

SJB87's picture
SJB87

SD Not Sour Enough

I noticed recently (after I started a new starter) that my loaf has been rather flavorless. It doesn't have the tang of a sourdough and the bread is rather flavorless. Today I had a bake where it was 30% Bob Red Mill's Spelt and 70% KA All Purpose, and i don't really taste much flavor at all (extremely bland). I used about 20% levain in the build because 1) it's pretty cold around here (~low 60F room temp) so i want to get more fermentation going and 2) trying to get more flavor. 

My process was as follow:

Levain: 100% rye starter (passed the float test) and smell was good 40g / KA AP 100g / H2O 100g

Levain build was 5 hours in a warm oven (avg levain temp ~78F)

Autolyse: 4 hours

The rest of the dough consist of the remaining AP and Spelt flour. Total hydration was 77%. I kept dough temp around mid 70F for about 3 hours (using the warm oven trick) and had to put it out at room temp (mid 60s) for 4 hours since I went out. So total Bulk Fermentation = 7 hours

The dough expanded ~40% and was bubbly.

 I shaped it into a boule and proof in the fridge for 11 hours before baking. I got a pretty good rise, but the crumb wasn't opened enough and rather gummy. The center of bread is rather dense, but the other edges have really large holes. More importantly, there was no flavor which keeps me confused. I'm always trying to sought for that tang in a SD but lately I've been getting a lot of bland bread and I'm not sure what I am missing.

Has anyone experienced this before?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

You need to keep a lower hydration mother starter. Mine is 50% hydration with 80% bread flour and 20% whole rye. Your Levain build also needs to be low hydration with some wholegrain in it. A more mature Levain build will help, so use an hour after peaking.

Maverick's picture
Maverick

Did you forget the salt? That will make for bland bread. If you just mean not sour, then Lechem has pointed you in the right direction. One thing to note is about the more mature levain. If it is peaking in 5 hours, then you need to change the ratio to peak at 12 hours. Also, why the 4 hour autolyse? Is that because of the spelt? Did you do any stretch and folds during the bulk fermentation? It also sounds like you didn't do any room temperature proofing before retarding. This might be the big reason for the crumb. Since you starter is relatively new, it is going to need a little help.

SJB87's picture
SJB87

Thank you both, I will definitely try that in my next bake. I did not forget the salt, had 9g in it, and had 3 S&Fs. I'm going to keep everything the same and try the following:

1) Longer levain build (12 hours)

2) Proof at room temp for an hour before retarding. 

3) Autolyse for an hour only

I like to keep the starter 100% liquid because it's easier to mix. But will build a second stiff starter just for this if the above did not work out.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

From the lower hydration mother starter. It still seems to keep a good tang. So you can keep one mother starter at a lower hydration and build a Levain at 100% hydration for ease of mixing in the final dough. Your mother starter will develop flavour over time if kept this way. And ditto to what Maverick said (I forgot that point), do longer builds. Try 1:5 starter:flour ratio for your Levain. 

richkaimd's picture
richkaimd

The sour in a bread is the result of the buildup of fermentation products of the lactobacillus bacteria in the sourdough starter.  The process of fermentation happens as long as you don't kill the bacteria by baking or freezing it.  To enhance the sour of my breads I place the dough, after it has nearly doubled in its bulk rise, covered with plastic wrap, into my fridge at least overnight.  At the usual temperature of the fridge (40 degrees or so) the yeast slows to a crawl but the bacteria continue to ferment, making the dough sour.  The longer you leave the dough in the fridge the more sour it gets.

A recently refreshed starter will look bubbly and pass the "float test" because of those bubbles.  But it won't necessarily taste or smell sour.  But once it's started to bubble, if you put it into the fridge, it's going to get sour.  

To make any sourdough bread, you can start with a fresh smelling starter which, because it contains the bacteria, will ultimately make your dough sour if you let it sit long enough.  Placing the dough almost doubled in the fridge to ferment will help you avoid its over-rising.

richkaimd's picture
richkaimd

The sour in a bread is the result of the buildup of fermentation products of the lactobacillus bacteria in the sourdough starter.  The process of fermentation happens as long as you don't kill the bacteria by baking or freezing it.  To enhance the sour of my breads I place the dough, after it has nearly doubled in its bulk rise, covered with plastic wrap, into my fridge at least overnight.  At the usual temperature of the fridge (40 degrees or so) the yeast slows to a crawl but the bacteria continue to ferment, making the dough sour.  The longer you leave the dough in the fridge the more sour it gets.

A recently refreshed starter will look bubbly and pass the "float test" because of those bubbles.  But it won't necessarily taste or smell sour.  But once it's started to bubble, if you put it into the fridge, it's going to get sour.  

To make any sourdough bread, you can start with a fresh smelling starter which, because it contains the bacteria, will ultimately make your dough sour if you let it sit long enough.  Placing the dough almost doubled in the fridge to ferment will help you avoid its over-rising.

HansB's picture
HansB

Keeping your starter fermenting above about 82F when not in the refrigerator will also make it more sour.

SJB87's picture
SJB87

So after a series of experiments, I was able to finally make some improvement on my sourdoughs. However, I still struggle with getting any hint of sourness at all. For example, a recent experimental loaf used the following:

40g mature starter (24 hour build)

360g KA All Purpose Flour

40g KA Bread Flour

300g H2O

8g salt

I autolysed for an  hour before incorporating the mature starter and salt. Bulk fermented for 5 hours before shaping and proof in fridge. I pushed the proofing time to 24 hours in the fridge in hopes of more sourness. The resulting loaf was 1) overproofed, and 2) not sour at all. I am a little bit confused, I understand the overproofed part, but I'd assume the bread should be at least sour at this point as well. I also used the mature starter directly as opposed to building a levain this time (since I only needed 40g of it).

Any thoughts on this?

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

so you discovered that there is only so much you can do once your final dough is mixed, without risking overfermenting...so you can look at what you are adding to that final dough.

So, if you are using your starter as your levain, and it is 100% hydration, that means you are prefermenting only 5% of your total flour weight (a standard reference).  I'd at least double that, AND make sure it actually has some tang to it (not just floating) before your mix.  That would get you up to 10% prefermented flour (and you can easily go up to 20% or more...just go look through Hammelman's 'Bread' at the percentages in his formulas).  Also be sure the starter you use to inoculate the levain is fully mature.  If it is taking longer than you want to reach that stage, then use warmer water (you say you use a 24hr final build for your levain, so I assume it should be mature, but at the top you say you did 5hrs which may be short, even at 78F).

Using 20% prefermented flour and having that levain tangy (but before it starts to collapse) when you do your final mix will make a big difference in the flavor profile.

Dan Wing, in The Bread Builders, then has a short section on what he calls very sour bread (p.68), and he suggests you make two separate preferments.  One would be you regular levain on your regular time schedule, mixed 8-14hrs before your final mix, the other is a stiff levain (50% hydration) that is mixed about 72hrs before your final mix...the latter brings a lot of extra acid, while limiting the amount of degradation to your final dough.  

He somewhat oddly uses references to water instead of flour for determining the relative size of these two preferments, with the stiff 72hr levain containing 30% of total water and the liquid levain at 20% of total water (I think to make it easy and be a bit conservative at first, I'd split the difference and go with 25% in each, or do the reverse, with 20% in the 72hr stiff levain, and 30% in the liquid levain).

A few more things to try...