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Sticky dough --- again!

gong's picture
gong

Sticky dough --- again!

Hi, I have a problem again with my dough being too sticky.

I used 200g bread flour, 200g whole wheat, 200g semolina. I added 420g water (70%) and 8% starter. Autolyses for 40 minutes and then 4 S&F with 30-40 minutes rest. The gluten seems to have been developed nicely and dough is very extensible. I bulk fermented for 12 hours and this morning I was trying to shape the loaf. Dough seems very sticky and cannot be handled easily. Anyway I shaped and but in a banneton and left it it the fridge for 8 hours, till I get back from work and bake.

Is stickiness a sign of not mixing a lot? Did I needed more S&F? I thought whole wheat and semolina required more water so I thought a 70% hydration dough won't be that sticky. Cannot find out what I am doing wrong.

 

Thanks

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

For 100% durum flour I wouldn't autolyse nor bulk ferment for too long as it degrades quickly and ferments faster than normal wheat. I wouldn't have thought that 1/3rd durum semolina + 2/3rds normal wheat flour would give you problems but it could be a factor.

Other then that it looks like a sound recipe and I'm at a loss why it wouldn't work out.  

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

I wonder if you are developing the dough sufficiently before putting it down to bulk ferment.

I know Chad Robertson puts his freshly mixed dough in a container and walks away pretty much.  The same with Ken Forkish.  It looks like they spend very little time developing the dough.  That never worked for me.  But it took me a while to figure that out.  They must have magic hands when they do the mixing.  (well they probably do). Once I learned to spend more time working the dough before putting it aside for the bulk ferment, my loaves improved exponentially.  I couldn't make a loaf that presented with the crumb I wanted with just 4 stretch and folds.  I know that there are people that can but I haven't mastered it yet. 

I spend about 10 minutes developing the dough in one way or the other - usually a combination of slap and fold and just working the dough by manipulating and stretching to get the feel that I want. By then the dough feels cohesive and not sticky at all.  It usually holds a shape to some degree.  Then I bulk ferment including stretch and fold 3-4 times or on an as needed basis.

I think everyone has some routine for developing dough that works for them and varies with the flour components.  Hopefully someone else will share.  When I first started bread baking it was very confusing.  The formulas were all the same: mix and develop.  It did finally trigger that I could develop it any way I wanted -  but I did need to do that developing step.

 

gong's picture
gong

To tell the truth I don't kneed a lot. I do autolysis, S&F and long fermentation times (~12 hours). I thought it is enough.

I do the window pane test and it seems to me gluten is developed. But it is sticky. I will try to kneed more, but I know there is a limit and all this autolysis, kneeding, S&F could destroy eventually the gluten structure, isn't that correct?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

just checking...

gong's picture
gong

nope. 1.5% will try 2% next time

joc1954's picture
joc1954

Was this at room temp or in the fridge. At room temp I would say it was way too long for 30% whole wheat and semolina. Was the dough tearing besides being sticky? If yes, then definitely you have over fermented it.

I had similar problems in the past. The only way out was to shorten the bulk fermentation phase and shorter proofing time when the amount of whole wheat or any other whole grain mill is used.

I was recently participating in bread assessment and although I had only 20% wholegrain spelt in my dough it was over proofed in about 12 hours being in fridge and the BF was just 3 hours. I knew I was in troubles because the dough simply became wet on the top while being in the proofing basket. I was preparing a mixture of classical poolish and SD levain bread to get less sour bread.

What I have learned in recent year is that when you have more than 20% of whole wheat flour things are going much faster. With spelt the timing is even more critical.

Hope this will help a little bit in your troubleshooting and happy baking!

Joze 

Maverick's picture
Maverick

12 hours is a very long bulk ferment unless it is refrigerated. I would say this is the problem.

gong's picture
gong

I thought BF had to do only with % of starter. I use around 8% to allow to ferment for 12 hours. What I try to do is fit a bake schedule to my work schedule.

So my point was to kneed in the afternoon, BF all night in room temperature, shape in the morning, proof for 8 hours in the fridge so as to bake after work. But it seems the schedule isn't good :( So this leaves me with the option of weekend bakes with SD.

joc1954's picture
joc1954

at room temp and then retarding. Or you can do bulk fermentation in fridge but I was never really satisfied with that. For 12 h BF at room temp you probably need to lower the starter to 2-4 percents only. You have to run several experiments with this lower inoculation to get the right amount for your room temp.

Happy baking, Joze

gong's picture
gong

I have the following questions, since as I said before I try to fit baking in my working schedule.

  1. Is there a way to achieve bulk fermentation in 12 hours with a dough that has high percentage of whole wheat(> 40%)? And what about proofing time?
  2. If I change the above receipt and BF in the fridge for 12 hours, how much starter should I need? Can I BF overnight and shape in the morning directly from the fridge? But then again I would have to proof in the fridge so as to bake after 8-9 hours. Is this possible?

Thanks

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

1. Drop the amount of starter. I'm reluctant to give you an exact amount as one needs to go by feel and also some trial and error. I find that 1% for a 24 hour bulk ferment works well then a 1 hour final proof. So 2-3% should be about right.

2. You can go with more starter, like the 8% you have been doing, but use chilled water and flour from the fridge. This should slow things down. 

3. 10% starter, brought to full gluten formation and fermented at room temperature for 3-4 hours-ish can then be stored in the fridge till ready to use. Simply take out within 12-24 hours, shape, final proof and bake. 

I'm not sure about a full bulk ferment in the fridge from beginning to end. I think it'll need some bench time first making sure the gluten is done and the yeast is working. 

gong's picture
gong

For 3: 3-4 hours (or 5) is for 20% starter correct? So half the starter will start the fermentation in 4 hours and the rest will be done in the fridge? Couldn't it be overfermented if left for so many hours? (12 -24)?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

At room temperature. I would develop the gluten with stretch and folds giving the yeast time to activate. Once the gluten is done and it's about 1/4 risen then I'd refrigerate. Giving times is difficult with sourdough as one should go by feel. 

In my experience 20% starter can be done in about 4 hours ish to complete the bulk ferment. But there are so many factors. How well is my starter behaving, how warm is it, what flour am I using etc. Your starter may be different to mine. 

What I would do is go for 8-10% starter. Make the dough and start the stretch and folds. About every 20 minutes or so. Once the gluten is formed and I feel the dough has extensibility but not yet too risen I'd refrigerate. So I'd be looking for some signs the dough is aerated but not too billowy. I'd say around the 1hr 30min - 2hr mark. Then I'd refrigerate. 12 hours sounds good but upto 24 there might be some leeway your have to see. Simply shape and final proof then bake. 

I don't do it this way so call it an educated guess. It's how I'd approach this issue.