The Fresh Loaf

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Stretch and Fold Technique - Hamelman vs Forkish

JoshTheNeophyte's picture
JoshTheNeophyte

Stretch and Fold Technique - Hamelman vs Forkish

Hamelman's fold method described in Bread, and Forkish's fold in FWSY both start the same way, stretch and fold 4 corners across the top, the difference is in what you do next.  Hamelman: "Once finished, there is no need to turn the dough over".  Forkish has you flip the dough over so the seams face down.

Because Hamelman doesn't flip the dough, the top remains the top with seams, and the bottom remains the bottom and is smooth and seamless: "from the time of the first fold throughout the rest of the dough's journey to baked bread, the smooth bottom and seamed top remain in the same orientation.  When the dough is divided and preshaped, the orientation continues, as it does once the dough is shaped."

This concept of maintaining a top and bottom of the dough from the stretch and fold step through to shaping is not present in Forkish's method and I want to see whether people think it's an important part of making great bread.

How many of you stretch-fold-and-flip vs just stretch-and-fold?  

Do you maintain a top and bottom when you take the dough out of the tub and start shaping?

Thanks,

 

Josh

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

It is too much of a pain to do with wet dough and I feel it tears the dough unnecessarily. I didn't notice that Forkish suggested to flip the dough until I had baked my way through half the book. I tried it with a few loaves and it really didn't make a whole lot of difference. 

What I did find made a huge difference in my oven spring was the final shapings. I now do a preshape using the envelope fold method, a rest and a final shaping also using the envelope fold method. 

Hope this helps!

Trevor J Wilson's picture
Trevor J Wilson

This is something I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about. But before I begin flapping my lips (or tapping my fingers, as the case may be), let me quickly answer your questions . . . 

Is flipping vs. not flipping an important part of making great bread? Well, it depends on how you define important, but it won't make or break your bread. So in that sense the answer is no.

Am I personally a flipper or a non-flipper? I'm both. It's dependent upon the circumstances. At home I rarely flip. In the bakery I do both, again depending upon circumstance.

So . . . 

The more nuanced answer is that I basically agree with Hamelman under most circumstances. I usually like to keep the seam side up. Now, when folding in the tubs that means flipping after the final fold so that the seam side is down. Then when you flip it out onto the bench to scale the seam side is back on top again. When you scale (divide) the smooth side stays down (contacting the bench) and then the loaf is prerounded "into" the seam leaving only the smooth surface exposed.

While certainly not necessary for making great bread, it follows a certain mindset. It's a way of thinking and approaching one's craft by first principles. It's adhering to the idea that small things matter. So going back to what I said about how one defines "important" . . .

If you define "important" as things that matter, then yes, it is very important. 

But . . .

Only if it matters to you.

So for Hamelman it's important. Maybe not so much for Forkish.

I know I'm straying a bit from the topic here, but perhaps an example might help. In the bakery, I fold different doughs in different ways depending on what I need from the dough. At the last bakery I worked at I folded baguette dough different than everyone else (actually, that was true of most doughs). Whereas everyone else would give it a four-way fold in the rectangular tub (and leave the seam up, which meant seam down on the bench) I would instead give it a "log roll" then rotate it 90 degrees and stretch it out to fill the length of the tub (seam side down) 

A four-way fold builds lines of tension that run perpendicular to each other. Nothing wrong with that, and we certainly made perfectly fine baguettes like that. But a log roll only creates one line of tension, one that runs across the diameter of the roll while leaving the length of the roll nice and relaxed. Essentially, it mimics the manner in which we would preround the baguettes. 

When scaling, I would cut the dough pieces into a slight rectangle keeping the long side the same as the long side of the dough batch. So each piece of dough was primed and ready to go -- it held tension along its width, but was relaxed along the length. It would then be prerounded by rolling it up following the same pattern, always keeping tension across the diameter while the length remained relaxed.

These prerounds were so much more enjoyable to shape than the ones that were given the usual treatment. They kept a lovely tension across the diameter that made for easy shaping and a very full and round body. But because they had never held any tension along the length, they would roll out with ease. The end result was quicker shaping, better shaping and happier shapers. Win win win.

When you approach your craft from first principles you find that little things start to add up the further down the line you get. This matters. And this consistency of thought is what Hamelman is really illustrating here. Seam up? Seam down? It's just a little thing, but that's why it matters. 

So when folding your dough, it's not so much about whether you flip it over or not, it's about why you're flipping it. Each step should prime the next. Knowing why you're folding, and what you're trying to accomplish with that fold, will inform everything about how you perform the fold. And that includes whether or not you choose to flip it. 

I'm not sure I answered your question, exactly, but hopefully it helps you to understand some of the thought processes that go on in a bakers mind, even when it comes to the humble fold. 

Cheers!

Trevor

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Trevor, I often find your posts interesting and educational. I thought this one was particularly insightful. It also tells me much about how you think through life and problems in general. I'm a home hobby baker, but in my other life I look for similarities and patterns in diverse subjects to inform a broader conceptual framework for thinking - often referred to by others as a latticework of mental models. Your comments about sticking to fundamental principals and considering the end objective ring true in what I do, and I would argue in just about any profession or personal pursuit - be it baking bread, woodworking, gardening, cancer research, investment management, urban planning, public policy, etc.. It all speaks to a level of thoughtfulness (read as thinking through approaching a task or issue, rather than as reference to a consideration of others - although you are that too) that characteristically shines through in many of your posts.. thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I've only once or twice (many years ago) made baguettes but have them on my bucket list of things to do well and will definitely keep your shaping comments in mind.. Many thanks for sharing.. bake happy! bread1965

Trevor J Wilson's picture
Trevor J Wilson

I know this is a very late response -- sometimes things slip off my radar. But I just wanted to thank you for the kind words you've spoken. I appreciate every single one of them.

Truly.

I often wonder if my rambling is worth the time it takes. Not everyone has the time or inclination to suffer a long drawn out comment -- I'm glad to know that sometimes it is worth it. Cheers!

Trevor

 

 

Arjon's picture
Arjon

I always appreciate the degree of thought you exhibit in your posts. What's more, I'm sure this trait, as exhibited by you and some other posters, has influenced me to try to be more detailed and thus (I hope) a little more clear when I try to be helpful. 

T. Fargo's picture
T. Fargo

  Thanks for sharing. I'm loving the observation you included in your post, as good observation is the basis of good science and understanding.  It's not just to make bread, but why bread turns out better when certain techniques are employed.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

but I don't stretch and fold in the container.  I moisten the workbench and dump the dough onto it.  At that point the seam is up.  And then proceed with sets of letter folds.  On the final fold, the dough is rolled up to complete the fold and dropped back into the bowl again.  Seam side down.  So it always bulk ferments with the seam side down, but always folds with the seam side up.

T. Fargo's picture
T. Fargo

... on the loaf I'm making.  I'm still a noob at making bread, but have learned a lot in the last year and a half.  I think having an orientation for the dough depends on what your aiming to achieve with the final bread your aiming for.  Look at the Windsor Knot series blog, you wouldn't want to cook that upside down and ruin all the shaping done, same with a baguette.  Using the envelope method and pinching the crease before forming is the path to those sharp baguette ends that is the hallmark of the style.  A Pullman loaf proofs and cooks in a closed pan, so the seam would basically disappear.  Pizza dough, once formed, is a coin toss, or better yet a dough toss.  I don't keep track at all when forming a pie.

  The other thought I have is about hydration.  Seam up or down during bulk ferment would not matter much with a loose and wet dough, as it has a tendency to collapse on itself and smooth out (surface tension & equilibrium).  A drier dough will remain more stiff and need (knead?) to be smoothed out on top, lest it be cleft with points that will get tough or dry out.

T. Fargo's picture
T. Fargo

  I mentioned I don't keep track while forming.  I DO keep track while it ferments.  I form and shape the ball of dough, then cloak and lay seam down, retard overnight, remove to proof then shape.