The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Hello

brian@qualityorganic's picture
brian@qualityorganic

Hello

I'm an organic farmer from Illinois who's just starting to mill some hard (HRS) wheat I grew.  Any advice on ideal extraction rates desired.  Also, any discussion on stone ground vs. rolled.  (I have the stone mill running,  but the roller isn't yet.)  Is it worth fixing?

Thanks.  Brian

OldWoodenSpoon's picture
OldWoodenSpoon

but I tend to be something of a traditionalist about such things.  I use a lot of roller-milled wheat flour for my patent flour choices, but when I upgraded my own home mill I went for a stone instead of one of the many alternatives.  I'm also not an expert on milling by any means, but I thought one of the reasons roller mills became so popular was that they gave the ability to break down the grain so it could be separated by components, removing germ, separating bran, and permitting fine milling of just the endosperm, to the extent that "whole wheat flour" from such mills today means "reassembled" not "whole milled".  So, I guess it depends on what you intend to produce and how you are going to go about it.  For my part, forget the roller mill and become the best stone miller you can be. 

I'd suggest you focus on 100% Whole Grain flour, and perhaps a high extraction (85%-90%) "reduced bran" flour primarily.  The whole grain would probably be the most popular by far (a guess on my part, based on nothing at all really), and the high extraction would serve those who like the idea of "whole" grain but still want the better rise and oven bloom that reduced bran makes possible compared to whole grain that includes all of the bran.

Congratulations, by the way, on being a family farmer.  I grew up "almost" that way, on the family farm, but my father's brother was the farmer.  The farm was too small to support two families so my dad went to work.  Congratulations, too, on your commitment to organic farming.  We need more of you, and learning of even one new one is encouraging.

Congratulations, finally, on finding The Fresh Loaf.  This is the acknowledged "center of the pro/am bread baking world" so to speak, and you will find many supporters of your efforts here, along with maybe a few detractors, and such an array of knowledge and viewpoints on flour, farming, and everything else; enough to make your head spin.

So welcome, and best of luck on your milling venture.  By the way, what flours will you produce, and what is your plan for marketing them?

That's my 2 cents worth anyway.  A bargain at any price!
OldWoodenSpoon

lepainSamidien's picture
lepainSamidien

So much really depends on your market and who is willing to buy your product and at what price, which will also be determined by the volume of wheat you're growing. Since you're in organic, I'd say your market is less industrial-oriented and less price-sensitive, so that immediately makes me think you should stick with the stone-mill, if only for the benefit of having the name "stone-ground" attached to your flour (which seems more appealing than "roller-milled"). Additionally, there are plenty of articles online that attest to the health benefits provided by stone-ground flours . . . I haven't stumbled upon any that have mentioned rigorous scientific studies--not to say that there aren't any--but there's a certain integration of the constituent parts of the wheat that occurs in stone milling that roller milling can't achieve. You can also sift stone-milled flour and achieve a lighter flour while still claiming to "whole wheat" flour (since the flour will contain all the parts of the wheat, with only the coarser bits removed). Roller milling can give you flexibility, however, in your milling : I worked at a very small, artisanal flour mill this past summer where the miller had 4 roller mills in operation. Granted this was not your 21st-century super state-of-the-art operation where computers were doing most of the work. These were old school roller mills. With them he would mill his T65 (white), T80 (semi-complete), T110 (complete) and T150 (integral) wheat flours, as well as Kamut and rye (T170 and T130). The older roller mills didn't necessarily extract the starch and jettison the rest, but rather they would more precisely grind the bran to allow for more precision-sifting afterwards. So ultimately the difference in flours at the end depended on the sifting, much like you would have in stone-milling.

As far as extraction rates, that again depends on your market and what kind of flour you want to produce. In Europe, the flours are classified by their different extraction rates, the numbers of which correspond mysteriously to ash content. For wheat, there is generally (in France) : T150 (98-100% extraction), T110 (high 80s-low 90s), T80 (80-85% extraction), T65 (75% extraction), and T55 (70% extraction). T65 corresponds roughly to AP flour, and NOTHING here corresponds to the monster that is modern bread flour (bread flour is something of an anomaly, the protein content being super high). T80 is a very popular flour here for "hearth" breads ; the majority of paysans-boulangers (peasant-bakers . .  guys who grow and mill their own grain and turn it into bread) are working from T80 flour ground on a stone-mill and sifted in a machine called a blutoir (The "Moulin Astrié" is the mill of choice). It's a pretty high extraction flour that is great for breads and leaves you enough bran to sell to the pig farmer down the road. Everybody's happy.

If you have any more questions about milling, send me a PM and I'd love to talk more. Thanks for introducing yourself and good luck.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

If there's enough demand in your area for the amount of flour you can produce of the type that's most profitable, it's obviously optimal to produce just that one type. 

In practice however, maybe there isn't enough market for that one type, which would mean milling at least one more. Or maybe there are other factors that out-weigh unit profitability. For instance, customers can make demands such that selling to them either isn't subjectively "worth it" for the higher unit profit, or that add enough cost to make such sales less profitable once all costs are considered. As one possible example of the latter, if you have to make small, daily deliveries in order to get the highest price per bag, it might be more profitable to deliver more bags but less often even if the price per bag is lower. 

brian@qualityorganic's picture
brian@qualityorganic

Thanks for the reply.  I really hope to follow up more with you (and others on this site) in the future,  but am busy with fall harvest currently.

 

I found a couple Meadow's 20 inch stone mills (which seems to be popular with the chefs in Chicago) and have been using a Sweco circular sifter (Not quite ideal). I think I found a "you tube" on the mill/sifter you suggested,  but it was all in French (I think).  Looked interesting,  but I couldn't understand a word of it.  I'm still not sure of the advantages/disadvantages of vertical vs. horizontal stones.

 

Most chefs are looking for a one-stop-shop when it comes to vendors.  I've been selling mostly ground specialty corns,  oats, buckwheat and some soft wheat.  Hard wheat has been a hole in my price sheet in the past.  At relatively high moisture (~13%) the bran on soft wheat stays in big pieces even in the stone mill and is easy to sift out.  Not so with the hard wheat I grew this year.

 

I'd love to hear more about your experience with roller mills, as well as stone mills, sifters, different wheats and grinding conditions (moisture, etc.)  Also,  any experience with clear flours?  (Flour sells for more that bran to the pigs.)  Currently,  I'm just trading my bran for pork (for home use,  good stuff,  but my family can only eat so much).   (There aren't a lot of livestock in my neighborhood either.)

 

Thanks.  Brian

 

 

 

 

   

lepainSamidien's picture
lepainSamidien

Hey Brian,

If you post or send me the link of the video in question, I can look at it and give you a translation of what they're talking about, if you'd be interested. It's no trouble for me, since I'm very interested in milling and a video like that can only be interesting to me.

I had never heard of a Sweco sifter, but after seeing some images on Google, I can second your conclusion that it is less than ideal. The sifter you choose will of course depend on your style of grinding, your volume, and your grains. However, in general, for stone-ground flours, a more horizontal sifter (bluterie) is used here in France. It's a long circular, rectangular, or hexagonal prism that turns somewhat slowly as the crushed grain enters from the stones and is equipped with screens that catch the larger pieces of bran (that's why many millers and peasant-bakers add a little water to their grain before milling, to encourage bigger pieces of bran, like you said). It's not an immensely complicated device (do a Google search for "bluterie" and look at images), and I imagine that an average handyman wouldn't have too much trouble following a design and constructing his own. Sure beats the old fashioned way of picking out flour particles by hand :D

The maximum grain humidity according to the miller with whom I worked this summer is 15%, so at 13% you have even more wiggle room. The peasant-baker I've worked with over the past two years mills with grain slightly more humid than that, I am guessing (he doesn't measure but goes by feel, but having touched grain at 16-17% and his, I can say with confidence that we are dealing with something in the high-teens for humidity), because rules are meant to be broken. No, it's because he has a very particular mix of wheat that can only be found on his property and that he grows and mills for his own production. He has experience, and he's not milling astronomical volumes of flour ; since all of it is for his bread production, he gets by with 150-200 kg per week. And so long as the stones aren't too close together, one can pass by the 15% limit (within reason). However, I've never worked with a Meadows Mill, though a farmer with whom I am hoping to work back in the States just told me that he has come into possession of a 20", which I'm hoping to be able to utilize in the future. What size is yours and what do you think of it?

So send along the link to the video and I'll give it a look. Thanks Brian.