A couple of newb questions
I'm on day 4 of my first starter. It's 100% hydration with 50% KABF and 50% rye. The first couple of days, I saw some serious bubbles going on, and at feeding time, it had this sweet fruity smell to it that I assumed was as it should be. Here it is day 4, and I'm not seeing any activity at all.
I'll continue to be patient, but I'm curious about my water. I'm using store-bought bottled water. It says "Natural spring water". Perhaps I'm being naive thinking that this is really from a clean spring. I've heard stories of companies bottling tap water and calling it spring water. The label says "Source: protected springs in [several towns in PA and NY]". Should I be suspicious of the water? I've also got a Brita water filter. Will that pull any possible fluoride and chlorine from my tap water?
This second question is more trying to understand the process. I've got 500g of starter going. Every day, I throw away half of the starter (because virtually every tutorial tells you to) and add 125g water, 125g flour. I'm just curious... What If I threw none away? Assuming I had large enough containers, could I just add 250g of flour and water today, then 500g of each tomorrow, etc., etc., never throwing any away?
The reason I ask is I'd like to know if there is an optimal amount of starter. Would too big a batch cause problems? Too little, not enough?
1. At this stage it is important to feed your starter when it shows signs of life and not to overfeed it. Overfeeding it now to 'wake it up' will just be counterproductive. Allow your starter to dictate to you (at this stage) when it needs to be fed. Keep it warm, stir it every now and again and feed when it shows activity. Once your starter bubbles up on cue everytime it is fed and it smells good then it is ready. Patience!
2. If you don't discard and you continue with these feeds then before long you'll have a swimming pool full of starter. You only discard at this stage because your cultivating a new starter. When it's viable you'll keep it in the fridge and with careful maintenance there will be no discard.
Three points of my own...
A: you're keeping an awful lot of starter. It can easily be done with a lot less. E.g. 60g starter fed with 30g water + 30g flour. Less wasteful.
B: For now your feedings of 1 : 0.5 : 0.5 is fine but once your starter becomes viable and strong you should switch to better feeds of 1:1:1 or more.
C: When it is ready then store in the fridge. When it comes to baking take a little off at a time and build preferments with it. When your starter in the fridge runs low just top it up and return it to the fridge (after it has bubbles up a tad). This way you don't have to keep too much at any one time and no discard.
1. At this stage it is important to feed your starter when it shows signs of life and not to overfeed it. Overfeeding it now to 'wake it up' will just be counterproductive. Allow your starter to dictate to you (at this stage) when it needs to be fed. Keep it warm, stir it every now and again and feed when it shows activity. Once your starter bubbles up on cue everytime it is fed and it smells good then it is ready. Patience!
2. If you don't discard and you continue with these feeds then before long you'll have a swimming pool full of starter. You only discard at this stage because you're cultivating a new starter. When it's viable you'll keep it in the fridge and with careful maintenance there will be no discard.
Three points of my own...
A: you're keeping an awful lot of starter. It can easily be done with a lot less. E.g. 60g starter fed with 30g water + 30g flour. Less wasteful.
B: For now your feedings of 1 : 0.5 : 0.5 is fine but once your starter becomes viable and strong you should switch to better feeds of 1:1:1 or more.
C: When it is ready then store in the fridge. When it comes to baking take a little off at a time and build preferments with it. When your starter in the fridge runs low just top it up and return it to the fridge (after it has bubbles up a tad). This way you don't have to keep too much at any one time and no discard.
Thanks, Lechem! Ok, I'll definitely cut way back on the amount of starter I have. And I'll also adopt the feeding ratios you suggested.
My first reaction upon reading your post was to wonder how much starter you plan to use on a regular basis. If it's a lot less than 500 gm, then you might want to consider a feeding plan that will end up with you having an amount that's more appropriate to how and how often you bake.
In my case, I normally use 100-120 gm of starter once or twice a week. I had estimated that beforehand, so when I built my starter, I did so with that ballpark usage in mind. I never had more than 200 gm during the week or so it took to become usable, and since then, I keep ~150.
were active the first few days. Now the acid of the culture is building up and pH is lower so these bad wee beasties are dying off czue they canlt handle it - yea! The good acid loving wee beasties will now slowly take over and in a few days it will be bubbling away perhaps not as vigorous as when the bad wee beasties were in charge.
Like Abe says totally normal
I don't have any defined "plans" on how often I'll be baking. I'm fairly new to this, and how often depends on several factors. How successful I am, how much free time I have to make bread, how much work it is relative to how good the bread is. What I mean by that is that if the best I can do isn't much better than what I can buy at the store, I might not want to bother. However, I AM very optimistic. I love good bread, and if I can create it myself, I'm all in. I want to be able to make simple sandwich bread as well as more serious bread to have with dinners and soup.
That makes a lot of sense, and I'm sure you're right about that. It's almost feeding time, and I *am* seeing some bubbling going on. Nothing like the first couple of days, but there's definitely life in there.
It's day 9 and my starter is passing the float test, so I'm starting to think about my first test loaf.
My question should probably be asked on the stellaculinary.com forum, but although I registered, verified my account via email link and logged in, it won't let me post messages. So I'll have to ask you nice folks.
In his video on how to convert any bread recipe to sourdough, Jacob Burton says: "The night before, you always feed your starter. And you feed it by dumping out half and feeding that same amount back in, or dumping out ALL and feeding back in what you need to leaven your next loaf of bread." He repeats this later, so I'm not hearing it incorrectly.
So my question is... WHAT????? What am I misunderstanding here? Does "dump" mean something different in baking terms? To me, "dump" means into the wastebasket.
...why don't you carry on feeding your starter as normal and make bread from the discard?
You probably have a good understanding of the starter and breadmaking science and process. I do not and I'm trying to learn from videos.
It was more of a suggestion then a question.
However much starter is required just take it from the discard after it has peaked.
Until your starter has proved itself then carry on feeding it as normal.
I think the suggestion in the recipe was what to do if you haven't fed your starter in a while and it's been stored in the fridge. The feedings he suggest was to bring it back to full strength. But you have already been feeding your starter daily so the discard will be primed for using in a recipe.
It might help us get a clearer idea!
https://stellaculinary.com/cooking-videos/stella-bread/sb-009-converting-any-bread-recipe-sourdough
The part I'm talking about is at 4:30.
Find a dedicated sourdough recipe. A simple white bread recipe will do. Nothing too complicated as it's just to test your starter and with no "conversions" from a yeasted recipe. Follow it as close as you can for now and see what happens. After which you can repost your results and take it from there.
I do plan on creating a basic sourdough bread from a recipe, but not today.
Today, I'm trying to understand the concepts behind designing a recipe. That video that I posted accomplishes much of this, but it's this one point that is totally unclear to me. I'd like to know if I'm simply not understanding the point he is making or if he worded his explanation incorrectly. The first scenario is far more likely.
Perhaps I should just keep pestering the webmaster over at stellaculinary.com to fix my account so I can ask over there.
and see if it makes sense to me...
Once you have a clear understanding of the Baker's % and how to apply and/or manipulate it, designing a loaf is very easy - even if you want a complex finished loaf with lots of adds.
A good starting point is the 1-2-3 Loaf. Just search for it in the search box.
We all started where you are. The first and hardest lesson is that baking with natural leaven is not a process to be rushed. After a while you learn to manipulate the schedule to work for you.
This is a great community with many fine bakers that are more than willing to advise. You learn from hanging out and reading. Even though I have little time for posting if I want to bake, I spend hours poring over the posts. I particularly like the blogs where most share exactly what their process was. The amount of knowledge available is immeasurable.
I'll definitely check out that 1-2-3 Loaf. I've been looking through the various posts looking for promising recipes.
Actually, I'm quite familiar with bakers percentages. I've been using them in pizza dough recipes for 10 years or so. I think volume measurements have their place and I use them in some recipes, but not for baking.
Another site (although not a community) that might be of interest to you is theperfectloaf.com.
All he's saying is that you want to put in starter that is primed and ready. which means fed and peaked.
He's giving you a formula for doing this when in reality (as you'll find out) is there are many ways to go about the same thing.
He feeds his starter, allows it to peak then takes from that to use in the recipe. Hence he advises to dump some then feed again in preparation for the recipe.
You allow it to peak then use. But then before you place it back in the fridge you'd feed again (otherwise it'd go hungry). But then when it comes to baking the next time and you give that a good feed you'll be creating a lot of starter so he advises to dump some and so on.
Many people treat their starters differently. Some will keep their starter in the fridge and take some off to build with. They only take off the amount they'll need for the starter build. Feed it, wait for it to peak and use. When their starter in the fridge runs low then they'll top it up. Many find this an easier way to keep and use starter. You don't need to keep too much, there's no wastage and you can build with different flour and hydration all the while keeping your starter with one type of flour/s and/or hydration.
However you choose to use keep, maintain and use your starter you should use it when freshly fed and peaked.
Don't get bogged down by his explanation at 4.30. Replace with the words... prepare enough mature starter to use in the recipe. How you do so is not set in stone.
Most of what he said, I understand. You want it to be freshly fed and active before using it in your preferment. It's that part about dumping it all. To my ignorant ears, dumping it all leaves me with what I had before I began creating my starter - a glass container full of nothing, and a wastebasket full of starter.
I didn't go further and I should have done. I agree it's a bit complicated to follow when you haven't made your first sourdough yet. I don't think it's a good place to start - converting a yeasted loaf. Only having used starter in many ways will this become more apparent.
Here is what he has said.
1. Feed your starter and use when peaked. Do this by taking some out and topping up with fresh flour. When peaked take off what you need. This will give you a flavoursome bread with tang. Basically it's refreshing your starter to prime it for the recipe. It's a good feed.
2. To make a sweeter starter you need a much better feed which is then not explained too well by his saying "dump it all". Feed what is left clinging to the sides of the container what you need for your recipe than a bit more on top of that because you'll need some left over. This huge feed will create a mellow flavour.
The first way has a higher proportion of starter to fresh flour creating more tang. The second way is a lot of fresh flour being inoculated by scraps of starter creating a more mellow flavour. Both ways prime the starter for use and will go into the recipe when matured.
May I just say it's not the best way of keeping, maintaining and using a starter. It's one way but there are many other ways which will be better. And I don't think saying "dump all the starter" is very well explained at all. You could just as easily take a tiny bit of starter off and give it a huge feed and leave it for 24 hours before using when matured. This will be a preferment. Would be a much better way than dumping all your starter and feeding what is clinging to the sides. It's risky and wasteful.
Let's say you need 30g starter at 100% hydration with bread flour.
His first way: take off all the but 30g then feed 15g water + 15g bread flour. When peaked use 30g starter in your recipe.
His second way: Dump everything and feed the scraps with 45g water + 45g bread flour and use when peaked (Odd way I know!)
Another more sensible way...
Keep a little starter in the fridge. When it comes to baking you can do as follows:
1. take off 10g starter and feed it with 10g water + 10g flour
2. take off 2g starter and feed that 15g water + 15g flour
Or something to this effect.
When your starter in the fridge runs low then top it back up.
But for now read this whole step as prepare mature starter to go into the recipe. Everything else is about toggling the flavour.
Thanks for taking the time for that extensive explanation. What you said makes a lot more sense. Rather than throw the vast majority away, take a pinch away from the main supply.
Spot on. There's a lot of dumping starter in his explanation (!?)
This way of maintaining and using starter isn't the best. He should have explained how to convert a recipe and said "use" mature starter after giving it a feed. One video.
The next video could be a more in-depth video for someone who has experience with using sourdough and doesn't need to think about maintenance etc, and talk about how to feed and use your starter to change the flavour.
Never having used your starter, converting a yeasted recipe and toggling the flavour all at once is jumping into the deep end.
Find a simple recipe to test your starter. Practice using this recipe. Get into the swing of maintaining and feeding your starter the best way for your needs. Once you've done this then go onto this "toggling" your starter build to alter the flavour.
Anyway, "converting" a yeasted recipe is a bit of misnomer. Once you use starter it's a different recipe altogether. You won't get the same bread. Timing will be different too. Starters have a different flavour profile and too many variables to be able to call it the same bread.
My problem is that a lot of this is waiting. My next step is to make a basic sourdough bread, and my recipe calls for four times as much sourdough starter as what I had this morning. So I fed it (doubling the size) and will feed it again tonight (again, doubling the size). This will give me enough starter for my bread and I'll still have my ongoing culture left over.
In the meanwhile... my thoughts are full of bread baking, so I'm wandering around the interwebs looking for whatever I can to increase my general knowledge. From what I've gleaned, if you're using a preferment, you can reduce the total process time by using a larger amount of starter as part of your recipe. OR you can use a smaller amount of starter, more feed, and more ferment time. I get the impression that this second method will yield a better, more complex flavor. It's the ratios that I'd like to nail down. Creating a loaf is a long process, and I'd like to keep the utter failures to a minimum.
You could have done this...
Feed your starter as normal and with the discard feed that with enough flour and water for your recipe.
Say you have 90g starter and you need 180g starter for your recipe.
Take off 60g Starter and place to one side. With the 30g left give your starter a normal feed of 30g water + 30g flour.
Now with the 60g discard, feed that 60g water + 60g flour to give you 180g to use in your recipe.
P.s. there are many ways for me to have gotten to the same amounts. I could have toggled the starter maintenance, feed and preferment feed to alter the flavour. But for now you wish to just build enough mature starter to use in a recipe all the while keeping your starter feeding schedule.