The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Sourdough starter

lissybell's picture
lissybell

Sourdough starter

Hi,

I am new to making a starter from scratch. My first attempt with AP flour, rye and filtered water from my fridge (warmed) was okay, but I don't think my starter was strong enough. I baked some bread anyway, and although it tasted just fine, it was rather flat.  My second attempt was with rye flour only, and I think I got the starter too warm and it developed mold. My third attempt is with a different ratio of AP to rye and I am using spring water (just in case my water was an issue). I am using the sourdom method I found on line (Australia sourdough site I believe), and this is working out great! My question is this method takes out all but about 1 tbsp. or so of starter after a feeding for about 4 days without removing any, and then adding 100 g water, 70 g AP and 30 g rye. Every site I have looked at uses equal parts starter to water+flour ratio. Should I change to these ratios, or keep on doing how the site instructs? My starter is reliably doubling and am curious why this method seems to work, when all others as I pointed out do not instruct this way.

This is fun, but there are so many sites with different instructions, it can get a bit confusing!

Thanks, L

DonyFromTha503's picture
DonyFromTha503

I'm having all kinds of problems with making a starter. I've tried everything, mixing flours, adding sugar. I'm having problems. Is there a good resource for making starter? Also, Is it true that stainless steel is bad to use when working with starter?

lissybell's picture
lissybell

I had trouble at first too. I have used this site, and this has worked well for me. https://sourdough.com/blog/sourdom/beginners-blog-starter-scratch

Also, I used spring water in a bottle (just in case my water was an issue) and warmed it to tepid temp in the microwave before mixing. I also felt in the beginning I was not mixing my four and water vigorously enough. I use a canning jar to store my starter. I put it on the counter with a warmed towel underneath and cover with another warmed flour sack dish towel. I only warm these, not hot! I followed the instructions at the above site exactly how described. Good luck!

_vk's picture
_vk

https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/rye-sourdough-starter-in-easy-steps/

also have a look at:

https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/handy-sourdough-tips/

 

They use rye, but I used whole wheat with no problem. Converting later to anything is easy.

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Here's the deal.  Your first starter was probably doing fine.  What you are doing when growing a culture is to build a colony over a period of 7-14 days or so in which yeast and bacteria ("beasties") thrive and concentrate.  One generally accepted way is to feed 2 (parts starter)-1 (part flour)-1 (part water) a couple times a day until it doubles regularly.  Generally, white flour has less nutrition for the beasties to consume than rye and whole wheat, so some proportion of those should be used.

Once it is regularly doubling after a few days of 2-1-1 feedings, the culture is healthy and concentrated enough to consume more flour/food, so move to 1-1-1.  Once the 1-1-1 feedings are doubling reliable, it's safe to move to 1-2-2 feedings.  Once that is doubling reliably every 3-4 hours or so (depending on the diet, i.e., probably faster with white flour because less food), it is really ready to consume larger amounts of flour, and so you are ready to build levain.

Importantly, they are very sensitive to temperature.  If you're at 65F, it will be much slower than at 70-75F.  If you push it to 80F it will be much faster still.  You should read up on the ideal temperature, but generally 70F would be a minimum temperature in my experience.  Different qualities come from different temperatures.

In order to avoid waste and for convenience, people store in the fridge using different methods.  There are better ways, but mine is to refresh my fridge starter with one to two 1-2-2 feedings at room temp 12 hours apart.  I feed .5 oz starter 1 oz each of flour and water, then discard and repeat.  This way you know your starter is really active when you use it to build levain.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Things to consider are temperature, flour and water/liquid.  Your location and the season.  Each starter is unique and will vary slightly from each and every starter recipe.  There are many different starter recipes out there.  Some better than others but stick to one and not switch between methods or recipes.  Start another one instead using another idea and race and compare them.  Most newbees will chuck a starter just as it is beginning to come around, so be patient.

"Every site I have looked at uses equal parts starter to water+flour ratio."

Well. you haven't looked around enough because that is only one combination. (1:1:1)   Not a bad place to start (first day feeding) and after the yeast have shown up several days later, the One Tbs spoon culture to 100g each water & flour is a good maintenance or building (to make more starter) feed.  It's important to understand what you are doing to make a starter successful.  

Raising a bunch of bacteria and yeast colonies requires certain variables.  A temperature conducive to growth  75°F 24°C to 92°F 33°C    Food (any carbohydrate, usually flour) and any non chlorinated water (allow chlorine to evaporate before using.)    Start with a tablespoon of flour or a whole bag depending on your wallet, for a typical household, one tablespoon of flour is a modest but good place to start.  Get it wet and let the flour absorb water adding enough water to make a .... now here is where all the starter recipes vary....  One will have more water -- a milky batter, some less -- a paste or soft dough.  Temp... the fastest starters I've seen start out warm the first day, over 85°F to encourage the chain of bacterial events that will lead to the desired group of bacteria which in turn spur the yeast on in the culture.  Reducing the temp after that first day is also an option and I suggest dropping down to 23°C to 26°C to encourage the yeast more than the bacteria.  Temperatures that are cooler will work, it just takes longer, in some cases much much longer, weeks longer to develop the starter to the point of raising a loaf.  Too hot will kill them, so if you think it feels hot, it's too hot.

The practice of Discarding before feeding (back-slopping) is not beneficial in the first few days although it is done in some starter recipes.  The idea is to introduce some fresh food and keep the person watching the starter something to do because they cannot understand that a natural process doesn't really need them.  Ok then stir the starter, that is harmless and will give us humans something to do and it does actually help.  Daily feeding can be done by just adding another tablespoon of flour toward the end of the second day or on the third day along with some water to aid in the process.  I like a clear plastic deli container with a snap on see thru lid.  I walk by, give it a little swishing stir and set it back down.

Are there other methods?  Yes, each method is a test of patience and waiting...  

...waiting for yeast to appear.  There is no real way to rush things along...  Yes, bacteria can also raise bread.

When the yeast does appear, it takes a minimum, minimum of 3 days if all goes well to this point. Then once yeast is detected, it is better to not get all excited and overfeed the starter, just feed the tablespoon of flour (or not) and give it another 12 to 24 hrs before removing part of the starter to feed more flour (at least the same or twice that of the starter amount and water enough to make a soft paste, now watch it and observe.   When it reaches peak activity, discard and feed again.   (Hang on to the original culture and continue with daily additions of flour and water just-in-case the culture was not ready for a larger feeding.)  Once yeast appear, the starter will show you that it is hungry and will demand more flour food.  

How to increase your chances of success?  Don't fuss and fret over it.  Do cover to prevent drying out and loose enough to allow gas exchange and yet keep out bugs.  You can increase the amount of acid in the starter by starting out with unsweetened pineapple juice.  When yeasts appear, switch over to water.  It is better to underfeed than to overfeed, when it doubt, underfeed or skip a feeding.  Cool temps, even at night will double the time it takes to develop the starter, do not feed flour before a temperature drop at night, just skip it and feed before temps rise in the morning.  All recipes are guides and not rules, watch the starter and not the clock or the calendar.  Expect the starter to take at least a week if not more.  

Someone will tack in links to Debra Wink's  Pineapple solution #2  (and #1)  good reads .... and also a few other starter recipes that work well.  One main thing to remember, starting a starter and building and/or maintaining a starter are two separate things.  Once a starter is putting out a fair amount of yeast, the focus shifts to maintaining the yeast numbers.  Then you need to look up maintenance strategies and forget about most of the stuff you just went through until you start up another starter. 

If you are lazy like me and don't want all the bother... put about two or three heaping tablespoons of flour in the bottom of a clean jelly jar (250 ml)  cover with clean water, about half way up the jar or three or four times the volume of the flour.  Fix paper towel over the top and above that plastic wrap or alu-foil, fix loosely with a rubber band, give it a time and a date and set it in a warmish spot for about 4 to 5 days with a bowl under it, ignore it.  After about 5 days, The starter should smell yeasty. Clear off any impurities on top of the water (or remove the wet flour layer to another jar and feed flour and water) and give the starter a stir, add a little water if needed to get all the flour wet in the jar.  Note the level and wait for it to peak before removing starter to build for a recipe.  I have taken out some of the wet flour layer on the 6th day and fed it 1,10,10  (s,w,f) to test build directly for a 1,2,3 sourdough bread.  That was with whole rye flour (starter) and 20% rye flour in the bread recipe

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

other fresh lofians everything she knows about starters and now I know as muxh as she does except for the huge amount of starter info she has forgotten and didn't pass on to the rest of us.  Still we need to book mark this comment and post it ever time someone runs into a problem.

I will add one thing.  I make about 10 different starters a year and have not had one of them fail since Mini straightened me out so many years ago.   

lissybell's picture
lissybell

so Mini, right now (day 8) of feeding my starter as described above, it is more than doubling in about 6 hours or so. The instructions were to continue feeding for another 7 days, or 14 days start to finish. Right now it smells more like rubbing alcohol to me. I was going to use some of my starter next week. Should I take what I don't use and continue to feed until I reach 30 Days and then refrigerate? I don't have a science oriented brain, Lol, so I'm trying to learn by reading And I'm determined to understand this!

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

at least twice a day.  From what I understand, it is peaking at 6 hours.  Give it just a little more flour so that it peaks in 8 hours.  You will have to fiddle with the amounts.  Reducing the size of the starter will also make it take longer to peak.  You want to settle into a routine feeding it the same every day, twice a day for about a week.  That sets the timing in the starter.  The starter can also sit in a cooler spot to ferment so it goes slower.  Feed several hours after peak for maintenance.  You can easily bake with the discard tossing it into a recipe.  Remove starter for the recipe according to the recipe directions, if not stated, remove starter at peak.  And try baking with it.  I would.  Waiting 30 days is rather, well, I've never done it.  Get into using it, that is the best way to get the starter working for you and who wants a jar in the fridge collecting discards when you could be eating bread.  

After about a week of routine, feed the starter, wait until it is about 1/3 risen from what it normally rises and tuck into the refrigerator for a break.  Start using it in about 4 days and up to 2 weeks.  You can use as is or take out a tablespoon and mix into warm water and add flour to build for a recipe.  When the refrigerator starter gets low, use what is left to feed and make more starter.  When partially risen, tuck back into the fridge.  When you notice the starter not working well, leave it on the counter top for a few feeds to pep it back up.  If you need the starter sooner than 4 days, leave it out to warm up and peak, then remove what you want, feed it and when partially risen back into the fridge.   :)   That's one method.

lissybell's picture
lissybell

So what you are saying is that the starter is more active and "hungrier" and should be fed twice a day now since it is increasing so much? I noticed this morning it had decreased a bit. I will start twice a day. I had read it needs to be fed for 30 days before putting in the fridge. You folks on this site are awesome! I appreciate the help. I'm excited to start using my starter :} Thanks so much for taking the time to help.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

30 days puts a lot of pressure on the person feeding the starter.  It's so arbitrary!  Did that same article say why?  If not, then it's not so important.  

I suppose it depends on where you are and how the starter behaves and how you plan to use it.  Some chill after a week of predictable behaviour.  I would chill earlier in the tropics, later in a cold kitchen (or not at all:)  Sometimes chilling the starter gives you your sanity back and gives the starter a chance to boost it's acid levels so it can defend itself better when fed too much..  I have even wondered if chilling helps synchronise budding in the yeast.  All things to wonder about.  To chill or not to chill and when to chill... debated still to this moment.  Nothing is set in stone yet.

lissybell's picture
lissybell

Mini, again thanks so much. You have helped me to understand a few things for sure. Nothing is set in stone, pay attention to your starter to understand what it's doing, start using it and most importantly, don't fret about it so much!

lissybell's picture
lissybell

Mini, again thanks so much. You have helped me to understand a few things for sure. Nothing is set in stone, pay attention to your starter to understand what it's doing, start using it and most importantly, don't fret about it so much!