Discussion On Low Hydration & Learning To Shape
Like so many others, learning to work with high hydration dough is tough, especially when very new to the game, as am I.
While I've had successes with higher hydration (72-75%), trying to form a proper boule is less than pleasurable and they've always been in a Dutch oven.
I longingly (is that a word?) watch the "dough handling" skills of those who are very experienced and good at what they do and know (hope?) that one day, that will be me. So I said to myself "Self, what's the best path to get THERE?"
So, I came up with a plan, putting together snippets of information I've gathered from the knowledgeable, experienced and generous folks here and in other sites. Basically, my goal is to get to the point where I can form a boule at 75% hydration and have it hold it's shape and bake it free-form with nice oven spring.
First question: is that a reasonable goal?My thought is that given a proper mix (I.e.: good processes and proper gluten formation), the handling of the dough and forming of the boule (or batard, whatever) is entirely in the hands of the person. Basically, with my skillset right now, if I was standing side by side with some of you, using the same batch of dough, you would end up with a nicely baked loaf and I would probably end up with something that could only be described as a thick pancake.
So with that thought in mind, I decided to go back to basics, forego the nice open crumb and start at 65%. My first attempt was an impressive fail. On to the next (yesterday) and I was pleased with my success. While somewhat hard to work with for S&F, the forming of the boule was actually a pleasure. It came together so nice and obviously held it's shape. This was my first nice loaf baked free-form:
This one crackled so strong I could actually see bits of flour jumping off the crust. Unfortunately, I had to leave minutes after it came out of the oven and couldn't cut it until midnight when I got home.
It was dark and the colours are off on the crumb, it was a little darker because of the WW starter I used, but not nearly as dark as this shows. Also, while it looks gummy and underbaked, it's not:
So, moving forward, I now have a loaf on bulk ferment that has a hydration of 67% (180 gms WW starter @ 100%, 540 gms white unbleached AP flour and 332 gms of water), and I also remembered on this one to add a tbs of vital gluten.
Now, next question: I am finding it tough to get the dough to stretch on an S&F without tearing it at this low percentage. I believe I've read that tearing the dough during S&Fs during bulk isn't a good thing. I'm looking for advice on this one.
So, I welcome thoughts on your knowledge and experiences!
Jamie
perfect to eat w butter and cheese (my favorites).
It doesn't look gummy and under baked to my eyes. It looks like the crumb is just wonderful
Question: why are you adding vital wheat gluten and do you autolyse?
hester
I'm adding the gluten as kind of an experiment, to see what it does to the loaf under my untalented hands.
I have done the autolyse, with dough in the low-mid 70s hydration and had a hard time getting the starter and salt incorporated correctly. So that was with a slacker dough than I'm working with now so I'll leave that 'till I've graduated to higher %s.
Jamie
baking it free from. Do you mean baking it on a stone with steam or baking it in a DO. Both are baked free form without a baking mold but you you have to supply the steam for the stone method. You can certainly fo a 75% hydration bread either way if you have the right flour, shaping techniques and basket to help it hold its shape while it proofs - especially if you retard the laof and bake it near straight out of the fridge. You can get the same crumb with a lot less worry by using 72% hydration though.
If you mean shaping the dough free from and proofing without a basket and baking it on a stone or in a DO then no matter how good you are a white dough will spread while fermenting bulk or in proof and it will bake up into a more flat shape. The crumb will likely be as good even with the flat shape. To proof free form and get a more lofty loaf you have to get the hydration down low enough so it won't spread as much after shaping - oddly the crumb can still be open this way too.
Happy baking
Maybe I have a misunderstanding of "free form", but in my case, the colander (I don't have a banneton yet) is nearly the same diameter as my round Dutch oven. So, when I invert the loaf from the lined colander to the DO, the sides or the DO are basically supporting the loaf shape and preventing it from spreading. So to me, in the case of my equipment, that isn't really free form, or is it?
Jamie
There is nothing about high hydration that makes bread intrinsically superior. So, no I do not necessarily view this as a reasonable and worthwhile goal for a brand new baker.
Re: tearing - when you added gluten you shot extensibility, you need much longer periods between S&F's to allow dough to relax.
.... Maybe it's just me, but I find the crumb moister with a higher hydration dough. Then again, maybe I'm just thinking that.
As for tearing, I'm not sure if you mis-typed a word or if I don't understand what you're saying to me. "....shot extensiblity....", but longer periods between sets of S&F makes sense. Right now, I do it every 20 minutes. Maybe I should try 30 or 40?!?!
Jamie
instead of fiddling with VWG. Depending on the absorbency of the flours you use, once you work your way up to more than 70-75% hydration, you're probably not going to be using AP very much if at all anyway, so why not use BF as you learn? I doubt the cost difference per loaf between BF vs. AP plus VWG is enough to be meaningful.
Also, you might want to weigh the VWG rather than measuring it by volume.
You're right, the BF has a negligible cost difference, but it's not always available (believe that or not) where I live, like unbleached, I can't find that here. I have to go to the city, an hour away.
As for weighing the VWG, my scale measures fairly accurately to a gram, but not to a decimal place, so I just went with what I have. Now (and this is a serious question, because I don't know), a tbs of VWG will weigh ~ 10 gms (I believe), so if it's 9 or 11, how much difference will that make to a recipe where (in this case) 2 gms is ~ 0.2% of the flour weight? I know the absorbency factor will be negligible, but I'm more concerned with the gluten formation factor.
Jamie
Plus or minus 1 gm of VWG is unlikely to have a discernible effect in a loaf using 1 kg of flour.
That said, VWG isn't 100% gluten so 10 gm of it adds ~7-8 gm of gluten. In a loaf with 1 kg of flour, a 1% difference in the gluten % equals 10 gm. It depends on the particular AP and BF available to you, but for example, if we assume the BF has 2% more gluten, in a recipe using 1 kg of flour, you're looking at adding ~25-28 gm of VWG if you want to make up the full 20 gm difference. Obviously, plus or minus 1 gm represents a smaller margin for error wrt to 25-28 gm than for 10 gm.
Also, if you have fridge and/or freezer space available, you can cold-store flour, which might let you stock up when you do get to the city.
Here's an idea: add only enough water to get a hydration level you're comfortable with and then develop the gluten in the dough; just before bulk fermentation add the remaining water and incorporate. This is apparently called "bassinage" in French.
Hamelman describes this in his book and says it works for him with doughs above 70%. I tried it once years ago and it seemed to work.
I got started with this in the early 90's and have always thought of these extremely high hydrations as a fad, but I'd like to get good enough at it (working with high hydration) to do it well and appreciate what everyone is so excited about.
As I recall, when I did it the dough went super slimy and threatened to leap off the counter, but came back together quite quickly. Maybe developing the gluten more will help with the tearing you mentioned?
Your loaf does look gorgeous, by the way!
I agree with what you wrote here
And Hamelman maybe also, as in his book he writes of some bakers who try for 90% hydration: "more's the pity"... lol
.... with me is touchy, and I'll guess it's only my inexperience.
With the "bassinage", @ 65% I'm already finding it weird to get all the flour hydrated. It's like I'm having to work the dough too hard to get it all worked in. But like I said, probably just my inexperience.
Thank you for the compliment.
Technique and handling are more key to open (or closed) crumb than hydration - or it's at least as important. Look at some of Trevor J Wilsons stuff for open crumb on low hydrations. e.g. http://www.breadwerx.com/how-to-get-open-crumb-from-stiff-dough-video/
When I first started making bread for sale, I got my technique up to 70% doughs and some nice big open crumb loaves, but I found that it doesn't sell here (the jam falls through) so went back to a lower hydration and different technique - even so, at 63% hydration which is my standard loaf it still looks like a "sourdough" loaf might look (whatever that is).
The same dough with a slightly modified technique gives me nice open crumb when I want it. This:
is a basket of some of that 63% bread that I did for an event recently - the stuff at the front is the sourdough.
But at the end of the day, when making bread for yourself, make bread you want to make! If you fancy the challenge of high hydration then go for it...
Or have look at this: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/44111/easy-sourdough-part-1 you can make it as easy of complex as you wish.
(fwiw, my bread flour has 12% protein content)
-Gordon
I'd buy those also.... Copying your recipe. lol
If it tastes 1/2 as good as it looks, it's fantastic!
Jamie
less thirsty than US and Canadian flour. When he said he got it up to 70% hydration using weak flour that is really saying something and would feel like 78% hydration Forkish loaf here. Not all flour is the same. 63% hydration would be like a thick mix of concrete here. I just did a 70% hydration dough and it was so stiff I had to add more water just to get the flour hydrated - it still would not slap and fold.
The flour and kind if bread is what tell you how much water to add A low hydration bread around here is vastly inferior to one properly hydrated and one properly hydrated is superior to one that is wet just make it wet. The 2 exceptions are bagels for low hydration and ciabatta for high hydration. One is supposed to be stiff as all get out at 55% hydration and the other flowing into puddles at 90% hydration. The rest are pretty good at 72-75% for near white breads.
Happy baking
Thank you kindly to all.
Now, I asked for advice and I will heed your words, and try some ideas put forth.
I did come up with a couple of more questions, regarding S&F:
Is there a point (hydration related or otherwise) where you knead rather than S&F?
Do you S&F in a bowl or on the counter / work surface? So far, I've been doing it in my biggest bowl but I'm thinking now it may be easier on my big board I work on.
Again, thanks.
Jamie
Once you get much higher than 70% hydration with white flour, unless you are making ciabatta, a banneton (or the like) is recommended. You can use a couche, but it will spread a lot. My family loves ciabatta, and the one I make is 78% hydration using KAF AP. I couldn't imagine trying to make this into a boule without something to hold it. I have never actually tried to make it a boule even using a banneton. I think you can get what you want without going above 70% (maybe up to 72% at most).
To the O.P.: you're too focused on hydration numbers. Better to get the dough to a consistency you can work with with the flour you use, then calculate the hydration. Carefully measure the ingredients and use the hydration you calculated, and your results will be repeatable and consistent. I use 64% hydration with Gold Medal bread flour. My results are remarkably consistent. Were I to change flours I would have to rework the hydration.
Don't forget to let your dough rest before you start to handle it.
What is your colander lined with? I use flax linen and love it.
These two videos may be of interest to you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGLDBZys8pw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKkG80YHutc
Doughhooker, until I put up this post asking for advice, you were 100% correct, I was too focused on hydration.
However, that's changed since the discussion here. Below is a shot I just took of one of the 65% loaves I baked Friday. Some may turn up their nose at it because of the lack of big open spaces, but personally, I love the crumb and the texture is amazing. Before this discussion, I didn't think it was possible to get this result from a 65% hydration.
The oven spring was amazing, which may be due in part to underproofing by yours truly, but I still love the bread.
When I do a boule, the colander is lined with a smooth cotton tea towel with a fairly tight weave, dusted with rice flour. When I did these batards, I used the same towel as one would a couche.
I watched those videos again and the lady there with Julia Child is amazing with her hands. I love to hear her explain things and watch her hands work.
Thanks for your input!
Jamie
EDIT:
My next try at baguettes will also be at 65%. We'll see how that works out, and I'll post pics.