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Converting instant yeast recipe to sourdough

schollen's picture
schollen

Converting instant yeast recipe to sourdough

I am pretty new to sourdough baking, but have done a some occasional baking using instant yeast over the past few years (mostly pizza dough). I created my own sourdough starter a month or so ago and have produced quite a few successful sourdough boules with great oven spring using the dutch oven method. I have tried 3 times now to make rolls using this recipe: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/italian-sub-rolls-recipe. instead of the overnight starter, i just feed my starter the night before. i then mix together all the ingredients minus the instant yeast. I get an OK first rise, but almost no second rise after shaping, i waited around 1.5 hours and the dough looked mostly the same. My understanding is that you can convert and instant yeast recipe to sourghdough as long as you keep the proportions correct and wait a little longer for things to rise. Am i missing something? 

Thanks for any insight you can offer.

markgo's picture
markgo

I've had some success with experimenting and converting a simple loaf bread recipe to use sourdough, but it was frustrating and I was basically winging it the whole time. I found that natural yeast dough became more liquid and difficult to handle over time, whereas the commercial yeast dough retained its easy-to-handle consistency and doubled magnificently even after 2-3 punch downs.  

In the end, my customer base (i.e., wife and kids) preferred the commercial yeast version, so I ceased with the experiments. 

 

Here's a link to an old discussion which covers this exact question: 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5569/converting-recipe-uses-instant-yeast-sourdough-starter-recipe

Good luck! 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

the flour and an equal weight of water to make a levain over 12 hours.  Then mix the levain back into the remaining flour and water with the salt and any enrichment in the dough.  Butter or oil  is added after the dough is hydrated and gluten has started to form.  Seems to work well.  After that you just reat it like a SD instead of a yeast bread

schollen's picture
schollen

Thanks for the input. Sounds like I was on the right track. Perhaps my starter was not active enough, or I did not use enough starter. Ill give it another go this time using a full cup of very active starter as suggested in the previous discussion that markgo linked. This comes out to a little more than 20% of the weight of flour in the recipe, and a bit more than i used the first time. Hopefully the extra starter will yield better results.

schollen's picture
schollen

I tried again, this time with a very active starter. After kneading i let rise for a little over 2 hours in 70 degrees. During shaping i tried to create some surface tension on the dough to help with the rise. In the end they rose more during the second proof but not as much as i would have liked. Although not as severe as before, they still ended up losing their shape during this second proof by quite a bit. Could doing a second shaping and 3rd proof help? perhaps i should try making this with instant yeast first just to see how things should feel....

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

During gluten development, the first 2 hours of slap and stretch and folds the dough might rise 20% and then another 30% during bulk ferment of another hour or 2.  It isn't supposed to double like a yeast bread.  If it does then the dough is over fermented and won't rise like it should during final proof,

Final proof for a white SD bread should be about 90% when it hits the oven.  I just think you are expecting to act like a yeast bread and it won't.

Happy SD baking 

Skibum's picture
Skibum

I use about 15% liquid levain for my bakes and back the necessary flour and water out of the recipe.  My results are pretty consistent.  Having a fully refreshed levain, one that will double in 4-5 hours on the kitchen counter gives my best results.

If I haven't used the levain in a week, I refresh It in the morning and sit it on the counter overnight. The next morning, I feed the levain again 1:1:1. If it doubles in 4-5 hours I am ready to go. If not it sits again overnight and I try again.

Happy baking! Ski

schollen's picture
schollen

dabrownman, i suppose this has been part of my problem. Although SD does not rise or behave the same way as instant yeast, can i still get the same final results? That is can i still create a light and fluffy hoagie roll, or do i need to use instant yeast to achieve this?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

one.  The crumb will be slightly different and the bub will have a SD tang.  There is no reason it can't be soft and fluffy just not as much as a yeast roll.  Intensive mixing is the key to soft and fluffy SD rolls.

schollen's picture
schollen

Ok thanks. by extensive mixing do you mean just extra kneading at the beginning. or should i do several iterations of stretch and folds as well, or some other mixing i am unaware of?