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Submitted by guerrillafood on October 27, 2007 - 10:24pm Food Based Lye vs. Baking Soda for making authentic German Pretzels?I am an American that lived in Germany for many years, and misses the breads of Munich so much. I have a European culinary apprenticeship under my belt and countless years of restaurant experience, but I am not able to recreate “simple” German pretzels. I find that there is a phenomenon in the American bread world. I find everyday breads in supermarkets and even artisan bakeries that look identical to European breads, but when you pick them up and take a bite, they are much softer, and well… weaker breads. The same things happens with my pretzels. I have tried literally a dozen recipes from American baking books and even from German books written in German. And they come out looking exactly like German pretzels, but the crust is always softer than in Munich. In Munich the inside crumb is soft and supple, but the brown crust is deeply brown with a crisp crackle. My big question is about food grade lye. Will this save my pretzels? I’ve been using a baking soda/water boiling solution before I bake the pretzels. If I switched to lye, would that make the crust better? Baking soda is an 8 on the pH scale, which is only slightly alkaline, while Lye is a 13-14 which is about like the strongest alkaline you can find. I’d hate to spend a month and $50 tracking down some food grade lye, only to find out that it is a huge hassle that produces the same or worse results than baking soda. Can anyone help? Thanks!
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lye for pretzels
If you do a search for this in this forum, you'll find supporters of both camps. I, for one, use the lye and feel it makes all the difference. The baking soda just doesn't give it the authentic taste and browning. It is not cheap to buy because of quantities, but it lasts forever. I use like 3-4 tbsp per liter of water, which can be used over and over. Everyone loves my pretzels!
Now, if you could help me with my kaiser rolls.....
Thanks for the tip on lye. I
Thanks for the tip on lye. I did do a search and read through what some are saying. I guess what I really should have asked is more about where to buy lye? I went to the hardware store looking for "Red Devil Lye" as it talks about in some of my books. But now I think I heard a rumor that this lye is discontinued. And now I am reading about "food-grade lye" on this website. I certainly don't want to boil my pretzels in a toilet bowl cleaner, so now I am really confused. Also, if this stuff is so poisonous, then it seems like even 3-4 Tbsp diluted into a liter of water would still be poisonous.
Anyway, if you could tell me where you get your food-grade lye from (if it's the web, which website?), and if you could calm my mind about poisoning my customers, students, family, and self... I'd be forever appreciative.
Ha! Yeah, Kaiser Rolls are my next hurdle. I saw the photos of Floyd's in the gallery section and in the recipe section of this website, and they seem to be top notch. At least they LOOK top-notch. That is always my problem with breads though. They very often look great, but don't have that crispness or that special something that European bakeries have.
Here's one
Here's one place:
http://www.isss.biz/food-grade-lye.htm
As I said, it is not cheap but that is a lifetime supply. I've also heard you can buy it at craft stores with soapmaking supplies. Now as to safety, lye is sodium hydroxide. It is used in soap making and for drain cleaning. It is also used in making pretzels and tortillas, or so I'm told. I use the powdered form, which would burn you quickly if you came in contact with it. I always wear rubber gloves. In it's diluted form, if you dip your hands in it, they might get irritated, but again, I wear the gloves. You also want to use glass or plastic, no metal when handling or storing it.
I make pretzels with my 8 year old daughter all the time. She is not allowed near the lye, which is kept way up on a shelf in the laundry room. I do all the dipping from the sink and use plastic utensils to remove them from the bowl. You can put them on parchment or the silicone mats and then bake them. It is safe when properly handled.
Aah, Kaiser Rolls....The NY German Delis have such good ones. I've tried most recipes, but haven't reached nirvana yet (no offense to Floyd - his are great!)
In 50 pound sacks
My sister the soapmaker buys her lye in 50 lb sacks. I'll have to ask her if she's shelling out $2000 for those sacks... horrifying thought.
Well if she is, tell her to
Well if she is, tell her to get into the retail business and start packaging it in small quantaties for bakers. I'd gladly throw her five bones for half a cup or so. But $40 plus shipping is pretty steap.
It's the wrong lye
My sister's soapmaking lye isn't food grade (or "pharmaceutical grade" in the terms of her supplier). I figured as much after she quoted the ridiculously low price she pays for a 50lb bag. Sorry to tease so.
soda lye - sodium hydroxide solution
Hi guerrillafood,
I am German, and I try to give you some information.
Sorry for my poor English.
First a recipe for "Laugenbrezel"
The hydration is very low (only 50%), but that is OK.
You will have a rather dry and stiff dough.
500 g wheat flour
250 g water
21 g fresh yeast or a pouch (7 g) dry yeast
10 g salt
5 g sugar
coarse crystalline salt
1/16 gallon (250 ml) soda lye
----------------------
About the soda lye:
It should be sodium hydroxide solution (NaOH) 3%.
Caution! That lye is dangerous. It etches most metals and your fingertips, too.
Wear disposable latex gloves when you work with it and use it in a plastic container or a plastic bowl to dip the Brezels. You can use it many times and store it in a glass bottle.
DO NOT WARM OR BOIL !!! Only use it cold.
For baking you need a thick anti-adhesive foil or a very well greased baking sheet.
In my country (Germany) you can buy it in a pharmacy.
The quality must be something like "food purity". "Technical purity" is not enough.
100 g of sodium hydroxide cost about 8 USD.
----------------------
Solve the yeast in the water, add all ingredients and knead for 9 minutes.
Let the dough rest for 10 minutes.
Then form 6-12 Brezels.
Dip the Brezels in soda lye. Wear disposable latex gloves!!!
Put the Brezels on a well greased baking sheet, cut the thick parts, salt with the coarse salt and let the Brezels prove for 20 minutes.
Bake with 390°F for 22-25 minutes.
Harry
---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.
Vielen Dank
Vielen Dank für deine Hilfe. Dein English ist schon sehr gut. Wahrscheinlich viel besser als mein Deutsch. Aber ich übe sehr gern. Also, jetzt schreibe ich auf Englisch, denn es gibt hier so Viele die kein Deutsch können. Ich will nicht unhöflich sein.
Thanks for your recipe. Now if you just had a good recipe for Schwarzbrot like I always had when I lived in Munich.
I'm glad you told me about the food-grade lye, and that I shouldn't boil it. Now my only problem is where to buy it. On the internet I have found Lye online at the International Scientific Supply Services: http://64.224.202.126/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ISC&Product_Code=SHF&Category_Code=FC
But it costs $40 and comes in 3 lb. batches. I need maybe 3-4 Tbsp at the most. Then I found Lye at the Green Bulldog: http://www.greenbulldog.com/index.aspx?page=biodiesel
They sell if for "home bio-diesel production". It is MUCH cheaper $18.99 (this includes shipping!!!) for 1 lb. But as you pointed out, I can't rest assured that it is food-safe.
So, although I'd love to try out the lye, I can't see myself paying $40 + shipping charges for a trial. So if anyone knows of a cheaper place to buy food-quality lye, please let me know.
Noch mal, vielen Dank.
German Pretzel recipe
gueriallafood,
I will mail you some if you like. Send me an email (remove the dashes) alan-@-sebagolakeonline.com
Another recipe for German Pretzels:
http://www.cs.uml.edu/~dm/brezla/
Your recipe.
I sent you an email about the Lye. Let me know if you didn't get it. But the recipe for Laugebrezela II looks fantastic. The "green dough" aspect of it is something I never expected but makes perfect sense now that I see it. And making a large pizza shape and cutting the dough into triangles to be rolled up into ropes to be shaped into pretzels... absolute genius idea for not over developing the gluten by pulling, stretching, and rolling little balls into ropes. And slashing the "belly" of the pretzels is something I've never done, but now that I see it, every pretzel in Munich had that tell tale bursting slash mark. Now I can't wait to find some lye.
I went to the chemical website suggested earlier in this post and found the lye that he ordered in 1999 for $38. It is $75 now for the same 500g. Things seem to be getting worse. Well, I live in Athens, GA which is a really big college town with UGA two miles from my house. I think I'm going to email the Family and Consumer Science Dept, and see if they don't maybe have some Sodium Hydroxide in bulk. If not, I guess I'll just have to save up a month and make the plunge for the $75 bottle. Scheiße!!!
Thanks for your help!
2lbs for $8.99!
Here's another site which wasn't around when I bought mine for $40!
http://www.aaa-chemicals.com/sodium-hydroxide.html
Not sure what micro beads are, but it is food grade and probably comes with MSDS sheets and warnings.
Food based lye
I was at the King Arthur Flour store in Vermont and they had food based lye on the shelves. I just remember it because I'd never seen it before and wondered what it would be used for. It seems like it wasn't a very big container. I don't know if it's safer than the stuff they use in Drano. I'm sure you can contact them and they can tell you what you need to know.
Food Grade Lye
Hello,
A nutrition forum (yahoo group microbial nutrition - all about fermenting foods, etc.) I subscribe to had information about Oriental Grocery stores that sell a pre-diluted food grade lye. It looks like a Korean product in the photo.
Also, I am a soapmaker and I buy lye for about $3 per pound. I buy in small quantities so that is not discounted. Thanks to meth makers, it's almost impossible to find lye in the grocery or hardware stores any more.
Good luck with the pretzels!
Patti
According to Cascade Columbia
Their soapmaking lye (at $75 for a 50 lb bag) isn't suitable for pretzels. To quote an exchange I had with my sister, who priced it for me:
<blockquote>He hadn't heard of food grade lye, but after I described what you wanted to do, he figured maybe it was pharmaceutical grade lye that you needed. He kinda freaked out a bit when I said that "my customer" wanted to make pretzels with a lye bath, and he said that he definitely would not go there with the product that he sells me. He also said that pharmaceutical grade lye would be very expensive. He asked if I wanted him to try to find some for me, but I figured that you don't need 50 lbs.</blockquote>
Food Grade Lye
Also found some here: 2lbs for 4.99. They also ship worldwide.
http://www.essentialdepot.com/servlet/the-Sodium-dsh-Hydroxide-dsh-Lye-dsh-Food-dsh-Grade/cart_id/10390331/Categories
Source of Food and Technical grade Lye
http://www.aaa-chemicals.com/
Much less expensive.
Seconded
I would like to second AAA chemicals as a supplier. Their 2-pound bottle should last you a while, and they do have a food-grade version available. No hazmat fees is another great plus.
I knew it was possible!
I'm so excited to have found this thread! I've put in an order for the 2 pound food-grade lye.
A friend of mine wanted to know how to make pretzels. Between "Laugabrezla II" and the lye, I can hardly wait! :D
I can't imagine how difficult doing something like this was in the days before the Internet.
Also, Instead of a super non-stick foil, why not just put down a light layer of salt? I've found that if the dough isn't too wet, the huge salt granules stay intact.
Laugeweg Rolls
When I lived in Germany (it was West Germany at the time so you know it was awhile ago) we could get these fantastic rolls from the local bakeries. Looked and tasted like they were made from bretzle dough. Has anyone tried to make these with this recipe?
BOB