If you do a search for this in this forum, you'll find supporters of both camps. I, for one, use the lye and feel it makes all the difference.  The baking soda just doesn't give it the authentic taste and browning.  It is not cheap to buy because of quantities, but it lasts forever.  I use like 3-4 tbsp per liter of water, which can be used over and over.  Everyone loves my pretzels!

Now, if you could help me with my kaiser rolls.....

Thanks for the tip on lye. I did do a search and read through what some are saying. I guess what I really should have asked is more about where to buy lye? I went to the hardware store looking for "Red Devil Lye" as it talks about in some of my books. But now I think I heard a rumor that this lye is discontinued. And now I am reading about "food-grade lye" on this website. I certainly don't want to boil my pretzels in a toilet bowl cleaner, so now I am really confused. Also, if this stuff is so poisonous, then it seems like even 3-4 Tbsp diluted into a liter of water would still be poisonous. 

 Anyway, if you could tell me where you get your food-grade lye from (if it's the web, which website?), and if you could calm my mind about poisoning my customers, students, family, and self... I'd be forever appreciative. 

Ha! Yeah, Kaiser Rolls are my next hurdle. I saw the photos of Floyd's in the gallery section and in the recipe section of this website, and they seem to be top notch. At least they LOOK top-notch. That is always my problem with breads though. They very often look great, but don't have that crispness or that special something that European bakeries have.

Hi guerrillafood,

I am German, and I try to give you some information.
Sorry for my poor English.

First a recipe for "Laugenbrezel"
The hydration is very low (only 50%), but that is OK.
You will have a rather dry and stiff dough.

500 g wheat flour
250 g water
21 g fresh yeast or a pouch (7 g) dry yeast
10 g salt
5 g sugar
coarse crystalline salt

1/16 gallon (250 ml) soda lye

----------------------
About the soda lye:
It should be sodium hydroxide solution (NaOH) 3%.
Caution! That lye is dangerous. It etches most metals and your fingertips, too.
Wear disposable latex gloves when you work with it and use it in a plastic container or a plastic bowl to dip the Brezels. You can use it many times and store it in a glass bottle.
DO NOT WARM OR BOIL !!! Only use it cold.
For baking you need a thick anti-adhesive foil or a very well greased baking sheet.

In my country (Germany) you can buy it in a pharmacy.
The quality must be something like "food purity". "Technical purity" is not enough.
100 g of sodium hydroxide cost about 8 USD.
----------------------

Solve the yeast in the water, add all ingredients and knead for 9 minutes.
Let the dough rest for 10 minutes.
Then form 6-12 Brezels.
Dip the Brezels in soda lye. Wear disposable latex gloves!!!
Put the Brezels on a well greased baking sheet, cut the thick parts, salt with the coarse salt and let the Brezels prove for 20 minutes.
Bake with 390°F for 22-25 minutes.

Harry

---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

   I was at the King Arthur Flour store in Vermont and they had food based lye on the shelves. I just remember it because I'd never seen it before and wondered what it would be used for. It seems like it wasn't a very big container. I don't know if it's safer than the stuff they use in Drano. I'm sure you can contact them and they can tell you what you need to know.

Hello,

 A nutrition forum (yahoo group microbial nutrition - all about fermenting foods, etc.) I subscribe to had information about Oriental Grocery stores that sell a pre-diluted food grade lye.  It looks like a Korean product in the photo.

 Also, I am a soapmaker and I buy lye for about $3 per pound.  I buy in small quantities so that is not discounted.  Thanks to meth makers, it's almost impossible to find lye in the grocery or hardware stores any more.

 Good luck with the pretzels!

Patti

http://www.aaa-chemicals.com/

Much less expensive.

When I lived in Germany (it was West Germany at the time so you know it was awhile ago) we could get these fantastic rolls from the local bakeries.  Looked and tasted like they were made from bretzle dough. Has anyone tried to make these with this recipe?

BOB

I find that food grade lye makes a big difference when you make pretzels.  I found a source at:  www.essentialdepot.com.  They charge $4.95 for twp pounds, but the shipping to my address in Georgia brought my order up to $14.74.  This still isn't bad.  They do have a 10 pound offer that includes shipping for $39.99.  That is only $4.00 a pound including shipping.

How long can you use the lye solution?  And when you are done with it what is the safe way to dispose of it?  Down the drain?  Into a storm drain?

Lye is one of the most important ingredients in making German Pretzels.  As posted above, I too get my lye from essentials depot on line.  They are reasonable in price, ship quickly and have great customer service.

When making the pretzels, be sure to place a slit in the dough in the lower portion (largest) of the pretzel.  This helps the dough to breath and to release excess moisture, giving you a better outside crust.

I have been doing this for years and also went through the learning process.  Depending on where you live, you may have to adjust your oven temperature and baking times to offset the effects of altitude.

Richard

you can buy lye water from chinese supermarket.

The reason you want to be careful about where you get your lye is that there are still chlor-alkali plants in the USA, Europe, and elsewhere in the world which use 19th-century vintage technology to produce sodium hydroxide by bubbling salt brine through vats of mercury. The resulting lye can contain up to 1 part per million of mercury, which is a dangerously large amount. Believe it or not, the US Food and Drug Administration allows this mercury-laden lye to be used in food processing.

Mercury can cause mental illness as well as a wide variety of auto-immune disorders.

In the old days, people made their lye from wood ash, and that would probably be the safest way to go.

Sure Miser, here's a link to an independent report.  It focuses specifically on high fructose corn syrup which has been contaminated with mercury from caustic soda (chemical name sodium hydroxide, also known as lye).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2637263/

According to the report, you would want to source your sodium hydroxide from chlor-alkali plants that use the more modern membrane cell technology. In the link below you can see that only 13% of the caustic soda produced in North America is made with membrane cell processing. Another 13% is still manufactured with mercury cells, whereas the remaining 71% is produced using diaphragm cells which may contain asbestos, which, as we know, causes cancer.

http://www.chloralkali.com/Library/Literature/OverviewOfProcess.aspx

We lived for some years in Memmingen, east of Munich.   Do you have a recipe for what was called 'Brown Bread'?  I have tried several and have not found one close enough to what I remember.  T

Thank you so much, Pam

Great thread.  I've only just started to try to make pretzels.  I'll be looking out for lye in the UK.

that we just can't seem to drop from our vocabularies...it's not quite "meaningless", yet, but an extremely confusing term

Think of it as just an abbreviation of 'al-ka-LI'. Every liquid you test will be either alkaline, acidic or neutral. That means: if it has a pH lower than 7.0 (which is the pH of pure water), it's "acidic"; if it has a pH of over 7.0  then it's "alkaline". However, that alone does NOT mean it will make good pretzels. (eg: sea-water is 'alkaline'...it doesn't react well with pretzel dough, however...)

German pretzels are made with food-grade NaOH, sodium hydroxide, a very strong and dangerous alkali (caustic soda). A strong solution goes up around pH14 (the MAX!) Soap-makers use it, as well as KOH (which is potassium hydroxide) and the latter seems to be the more common for soap-makers, these days. I don't know why, exactly—perhaps it's the cost? I've never seen KOH recommended for pretzel-making, or any other baking, so personally, I'd forget about that one

Our ancestors made their own wood-ash 'lye', which is usually a tad stronger (higher pH) than baking soda, but nowhere near NaOH in strength. Similarly, Chinese 'lye water' is also 'wood-ash' (soda-ash) or commonly, a mixture of sodium carbonate and potassium carbonate. OK for noodle-making and a little bit stronger than baking soda. I doubt it would be as effective as NaOH for pretzels. If you use a weaker alkali, you may need to soak (or simmer) your pretzels in your alkaline solution for a longer time, which may not make the best pretzels. I've never tried it

On US websites, I've seen food-grade NaOH for $4.99 per 2lb. In Europe, it's much more expensive, but they only ship to a few locations—Germany, Austria and either Switzerland or Holland...I forget which. My relative in Germany ordered some and shipped it to me among some other baking-related supplies

copyu

Just worked through this thread, and I'm really confused.

Can't speak for Europe, but food-grade lye is readily available everywhere in the U.S. Just go down to the nearest hardware store. I get mine at the local ACE, for instance. Cost's less than four bucks for a pound---which lasts two days longer than forever.

I think we sometimes get carried away in our search for ingredients.

BTW, I've made Bavarian style pretzels using both lye and baking soda. I'll take the lye, any day, for that hard, shiny crust. Baking soda, on the other hand, is great for bagels.

Please explain how to use the lye when making pretzels.  When I have used baking soda, the formula read to boil the pretzels in the baing soda/water solution for 30 seconds.  Here I have read not to heat the lye in water, or use a metal container.  What is the process?  If the pretzels are just dipped into the water solution are they to be boiled afterwards, then baked?  I understand the lye solution provides the shinny hard crust, but I think the boiling provides the chewy inside.

Does anyone have a formula for the soft pretzels using lye with the full details on the method and the proportions of lye to water?

Thanks.

My first experience with pretzels were in Germany.  My father was in the Army and we were stationed in Germany.  I fell in love with them!

So, my first and only attempt at making pretzels was dissatisfying.  And I believe it had to do with the lack of lye.
Now I have got to try it again with the lye.

Thanks!

One comment on copyu's post: Lye will stain wood a lovely black. So, if you use wood as a work surface, don't use your good cutting boards or wooden peels.

Bread Buddy: After shaping the pretzels let them sit in the fridge overnight, so the surfaces become dry and crust-like. Then---following copyu's mixing and safety instructions---prepare the lye solution. If you're using lye crystals, dissolve 1 tablespoon in 1 cup of water to achieve the proper solution. I've not used anything else, so can't help with proportions when the lye is in other forms.

Wearing rubber gloves, dip each pretzel in the lye solution for about 15 seconds and transfer to a parchment-paper lined sheet pan. Top with seeds, salt, or whatever, and bake as usual.  

You can find the entire procedure (along with a pretty good formula) in the Culinary Institute of America's Artisan Baking At Home, published earlier this year.

One other word of caution: When working with lye, allow no distractions. Turn off the phone, kick the dog outside, send the kids to grandma's for the duration. Used with proper precautions lye is perfectly safe. But it can be incredibly dangerous if you let it be.

Thank you for explaining the dipping process and other helpful hints.  I have been wanting to try using lye for pretzels and bagels but have been very apprehensive.  With your suggestions and cautionary statements, I think I have the information I need now to give it a try.

Hello,

I would just like to let everyone know that you can find food grade lye on www.eBay.com  I am a soapmaker and just bought some on eBay from Essential Depot.  Hope this helps.

I have a phd in synthetic organic chemistry and have made large scale drugs for human use (Abbott labs) and this poster is correct.  The specifications on food grade and technical grade, e.g., Red Devil, are almost identical, food grade might be slightly more pure, maybe it has slightly less carbonate.  

There is no lye that posts specifications of mercury and to say it's in there is a guess.  If you really believe food grade is better, you can get pretty small qtys on Ebay pretty cheap.  

If a heavy metal is a contaminant in a product, it's not going to show up on the ingredient list.  However, the 'food grade' version of a product has been tested to ensure that contaminants are below the allowable limit.  The technical version of the same product is not tested for contaminants, so it's a safer alternative to go with food grade even if it's more expensive.

I started out boiling my bagels in a lye solution (one tbsp/quart) and was using drain cleaner (labeled 100% NaOH). It was just fine. I suffered no ill effects and I believe the stuff is just fine to use. That being said, I now use the food grade variety.

I found that people seem to be put off by the fact that you use lye in the process to begin with, I figured they would really croak if I asked them "please hand me the drain cleaner, yeah that's the stuff, the bottle with the big skull and crossbones on it".

The lye I got was the stuff they sell on Amazon. Two pounds for a little less than $5, shipping is almost $12 (not $25!). It is labeled as high quality, food grade NaOH and it is Kosher certified. I'm glad I got it, but if I were the only one eating the bagels, I would of stuck with the drain cleaner.

@asicign  Residual heavy metals isn't on the label of either grade, one can't easily verify what tests were run on either, what you said is a guess.

@polo knowing what I do, I still use the food grade just so I can tell people I used the food grade, makes my friends feel better.

Lye sale until Friday July 1st.  About half of normal price.

http://www.essentialdepot.com/servlet/the-On-Special--dsh--50-pct--to-70-pct--OFF/Categories
 

Hey everyone, just wanted to stop by and remind you that Essential Depot ( www.essentialdepot.com ) is selling high quality food grade lye, 2lb's for 3.44 ... A very good price!! 

Hey everyone, as i recall i believe that we were on a discussion of whether to use baking soda or lye for good pretzels, i may be a bit late on the subject but i was making some pretzels the other day from a recipe oi found and tweaked a lil bit and quite amazingly these pretzels were pretty darn good! as much as i would love to share the finished product i cant, but i can do the next best thing and share the recipe! so here ya go! enjoy! ..oh and may i add, for those of you who stray away from lye, dont be so finicky! agreed, this stuff is a bit touch and go, but as long as you take the proper precautions you will be cookin with lye in no time!

2 envelopes dry yeast
1 qt. milk, 2% is fine
1/2 c. warm water
3/4 c. shortening (I mix lard & butter & flavored Crisco)
1/2 c. sugar
1 1/2 tsp. baking powder
12 c. all-purpose flour, unsifted
1 1/2 tbsp. salt
Coarse salt to sprinkle

LYE DIP:

2 level tbsp. lye
2 quarts. cold water

Soften yeast in 1/2 cup water. Scald milk. Stir in shortening. Cool . Add yeast with 6 cups flour. Beat, vigorously. Cover, sit in warm place until risen , this takes just about 30 minutes.

Add remaining flour, baking powder, salt and sugar. Mix until well blended. Turn out on smooth surface. Cover with moist towel 3 minutes. Knead until elastic. Put in big kettle. Cover with towel.  Put in warm place and Let rise until it has doubled in size, usually takes  1 1/2 hours. Punch dough down and let stand for 10 minutes. Cut into quarters then Cut quarters into 12 pieces. Cover with towel. Roll each piece into long strip for twisting. Place on stainless steel baking sheet, then put one at a time, pretzels on slotted, stainless steel lifter, dip very briefly in lye, usually a 3-5 second bath, drain on lifter and place back on sheet. As soon as cookie sheet is full, sprinkle with coarse salt. Bake in 400 degree oven until brown, about 15 minutes. Place on dry towel to cool. Cover twisted pretzels with towel until half raised.

IMPORTANT: Lye creates a volotile reaction with aluminum! aluminum sheets or dipping tool CANNOT BE USED. Also, I spray sheets with Pam, so there is no sticking.

and please dont hesitate to share any renditions or tweaks to this recipe,  id love to hear new ideas, good OR bad comments and anything else!