The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts


DavidAplin's picture


Hi Bread Bakers, I have been 'sper-i-menting with Vollkornbrot forms from Hamelmans book. Some have turned out well, others not so well. The final proof seems to be key here. Paying attn to the final proof time is very important, if it rises a little too high...kerplunk! Also, the baking time in the book seems to be rather short, I have increased it to around 4 hours in total.

Happy Baking, David Aplin  Finished mix @ 20 degrees C
Vollkornbrot Final Dough: Finished mix @ 20 degrees C
 Water on table, dough is tres sticky
2 kg. and 1 kg. pieces: Water on table, dough is tres sticky
 Beginning of 1 1/2 hr. final proof
Vollkronbrot in tins: Beginning of 1 1/2 hr. final proof
 End of proof with cracks very visible, time to slam the heat
Vollkornbrot Proof: End of proof with cracks very visible, time to slam the heat
 After a lengthy bake; almost 4 hours.
Vollkornbrot baked: After a lengthy bake; almost 4 hours.
 Another view, quite pleased with myself, (FOR NOW)
Vollkronbrot Baked 2: Another view, quite pleased with myself, (FOR NOW)
goetter's picture

But I've never scaled Hamelman's recipe to 2kg loaves.  With 500-750g loaves his timing worked for me.  Did you let the finished loaves sit for a day before test-slicing them?

We baked 2kg Vollkornbrot loaves a couple of times in a SFBI class that I took, and we didn't need anything like four hours in the oven (though it was a great beast of a deck oven we were using).  I don't have my notes with me - could check next week if needed.

DavidAplin's picture

Hi, Yes I gave the loaves a full 72 hour rest period before sawing them open. In my opinion they could have used another 2 hours (at 300F) or so, the interior was just this side of porridge. Tasty porridge. Nevertheless it makes awesome toast for that early morning carb hit. An oven with greater heat retention would probably do the trick, I was using my regular indoor electric oven.

Regards, David Aplin

PS; Yes please do check what you have written down, any empirical info will help, thanks

goetter's picture

I have access to my notes now, and their baking protocol agrees pretty closely with Hamelman's recipe: starting at 230C, falling to 180C, total baking time 90 minutes.  We scaled in both 1100g and mondo 2200g portions, and let the loaves stand for a full 24 hours before slicing them.

Our recipe was a little different from Hamelman's, with the sour being made with coarse-cracked rye (Roggenschrot, or "chops" per Hamelman) rather than flour.  We also added a little sugar beet syrup (2%) or honey (5%).  The recipe's net hydration was 75 to 80% (TA: 175-180) instead of Hamelman's 82 to 85%.

The porridgiest Vollkornbrot I've ever made was one where I tried using long-simmered (1 hr) whole rye berries as a soaker of sorts.  (I was reacting to anoverly crunchy previous bread where I hadn't soaked the grain properly.)   The berries swelled up nicely in the pan, then proceeded to dump a horrific amount of water into what was already a highly hydrated dough.  The result was like a sloppy banana bread made with rye.  I won't do that again.

sphealey's picture

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe cracked rye is crushed in a mill (very coarsely) while rye chops are cut with sharp blades. I have found very few sources of rye chops in the US (and none that are free of nut contamination).


goetter's picture

So chops would have a texture like steel-cut oats, then?  I've never had access to true chops.  We used coarsely milled rye in class, and it's all I've ever used at home.

Here's an interesting German-language thread at on the two, wenn Sie Deutsch koennen:,37,136045/Roggenschrot-Roggenvollkornmehl.html

sphealey's picture

=== Here's an interesting German-language thread at on the two, wenn Sie Deutsch koennen: ===

I keep giving German bread information to my son to translate (good practice for living there I think) but he prefers to spend his extra language time translating Wikipedia pages on _his_ hobby topics! I am considering sending the bread info to his teacher with a suggestion for homework assignments...


goetter's picture

I like that idea.

The convo is between a poster who wants to know if she can make type 1150 rye flour (a refined, medium-extraction four) from rye berries in her mother-in-law's grain mil.  The repondent says, no, you need a fancier mill than the common kitchen variety.  Then in an aside he adds that /Schrot/ sometimes just refers to whole meal, because there's not much difference between a 'chop' and the coarser parts of a coarse whole-meal milling -- they behave similarly while baking.  He closes with advise on hydrating a recipe using whole meal in the place of 1150.

Much of my German practice nowadays seems to come from wading through German-language baking sites.  If I ever end up over there, I'll know how to ask directions to the bakery!  (What else could anybody ever need?)

guerrillafood's picture

What do you have sticking out of the big round dough "plop" in the first picture other than the thermometer? There is a flat plastic lookign stick shoved into the dough.



Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven


harrygermany's picture


some days ago I finished a sourdough rye wholemeal bread (without baking dish), which I hadn't baked before.
I was surprised that I succeeded.

Just to give you some data and information I write in short the ingredients and the way I prepared the bread.

800 g rye wholemeal
200 g wheat wholemeal
3 tablespoons rye sourdough starter
800 g warm water
1 pouch (7 g) dry yeast or 21 g fresh yeast
20 g salt

The day before baking I started the sourdough (3 stages).
1. stage:
mix 3 tablespoons rye SD starter with
50 g rye wholemeal and
70 g warm water.
Stir and keep in a plasticbowl with lid for 5 hours with 77°F.
2. stage:
add 110 g rye wholemeal and
90 g warm water.
Stir and keep in a plasticbowl with lid for minimum 12 hours (overnight) with 70°F.
baking day:
3. stage:
add 240 g rye wholemeal and
290 g warm water.
Stir and keep in a plasticbowl with lid for 3 hours with 95°F.

850 g rye sourdough,
400 g rye wholemeal,
200 g wheat wholemeal,
350 g warm water,
1 pouch (7 g) dry yeast or 21 g fresh yeast,
20 g salt

Knead well for 7 minutes by machine.

Let dough rest for 30 minutes covered by a cloth on work top.

Give dough a ball-shaped form by hand and a spatula.

Let it prove in a covered dough basket for 90-120 minutes.

Then let the loaf roll carefully on a baking sheet (with baking paper).

Start baking with 480°F for 20 minutes, then turn down temperature to 390°F and finish baking for another 60 minutes.
So baking in the oven alltogether 80 minutes.


Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

DavidAplin's picture

Your formula looks sound, I'll bet the bread is as tasty as it can get. Rye is a wonderful thing. it is quite a different beast than wheat, yet it has it's own rewards. All the best!


Woods's picture


David,  great looking bread!  What is the size of the strap pans you are using.  I need some but can't decide what size would be the most use full.  What do you think?

 Thanks,  Woods

DavidAplin's picture

The sandwich tins I used are 4 1/4"W x 12 1/8"L x 4"D. There is a lid which i didn't use for this particular bread. The weight of each unbaked Vollkornbrot was 2 kg. That's a pretty good sized loaf and takes a pretty long time to bake.

Best, David 

nova's picture


I have started baking Vollkornbrot the last 2 months...someone referred me to your thread, and how helpful you have been!  I was using Hamelman's baking time protocol.  Mini of minioven indicated that low temp and long was the way to go, and I think she directed me to your thread.  So I have started baking the 12x4 Pullman size (2 kg) for about 4 hrs at 300 and it has been enough for the center to be adequately baked.  The bread overall is moister and more flavorful after 72 hr rest.  I think Hamelman was going higher temp and shorter becuz of the reality of commercial baking and oven availability.

Thanks for the also taking the lo and slo approach to some other Hamelman loaves including the 70% rye and soaked chops...very nice outcome with 2 hrs 30 min...2 kgs of dough.