Does Tartine Bread's stretch and fold work?
So I've been baking out of Chad Robertson's book for awhile now, and have only gotten a pair of good loaves over the past 2 months of baking. I followed all of the steps to the tee and have been pulling my teeth out after tossing loaf after flat loaf into the trash. I adjusted for overproofing. I adjusted for underproofing. I changed flours. Always flat no matter what.
Today, after baking one flat loaf, I figured I'd use the other for pizza. I began stretching the dough out and lo and behold, there was no gluten network and it wouldn't even stretch a few centimeters. So my question is; what am I doing wrong with the stretch and fold step during bulk fermentation? When I do french kneading, it comes out fine. But when I follow Chad Robertson or Ken Forkish, I get gluten-less dough.
Yes, it works. For many of us, like a charm. This method makes it possible to work with "high-hydration" dough that would otherwise be hard to knead.
What kind of flours are you using?
Are you measuring your flour carefully or using a scale? I know I used to routinely use up to 50% too much flour because of the way I would scoop it and it would end up packed down.
Right now I'm using a local AP flour mixed with some whole wheat flour. I've used King Arthur's AP and bread flours in the past without much luck. And yes, I'm using a scale.
Right now I'm doing a french knead with my botched dough and using the window pane test, I'm finally beginning to see some gluten development. So it seems the flour is fine, I'm just in fact not gaining much gluten development at some point in the process.
Hmm.... have you tried letting the dough rest 20 - 30 minutes before the first set of stretch and folds?
Or maybe if you're using too much starter that's too old the acid could be preventing good gluten formation?
...and reduce the hydration to a modest 65% on your next batch. At that hydration you should easily be able to pick up the dough and properly stretch-and-letterfold it, instead of using the tartine/forkish methods. It's also a bit more forgiving on the gluten ripping. You'll know when it doesn't want anymore stretch/folds because it won't let you stretch it. It's won't expand quite as much (during bulk or proof) as the methods you've been using, so keep your poking finger ready during the proof. If you find success, then you could increase by 2.5% over the next several batches until you find a "breaking point" with the ingredients/process you're using. Just an idea anyway. I find lower hydration a much more forgiving process.
That sounds helpful. I pretty much jumped right into 75% hydration from almost no experience. Do you think my problem is that I'm stretching too hard and in fact tearing the gluten?
I really can't say if you're stretching too much and tearing gluten - I doubt it if you've been at this for two months but that's a wild guess. If you think you are, then maybe you are. If you don't think you are, then it's unlikely that you are. The higher the hydration, typically, the more stretch you can get but the easier it is to tear the gluten. This is why I suggest trying a lower hydration recipe because it's easy to handle, stretchable but lets you know when it's done, and harder to tear the gluten in mostly white flour loaves (85%+ white flour - bread flour or AP flour). Bread-making is usually very forgiving from my perspective; I can mess up several things and still get edible loaves. The thing that makes loaves almost useless (for me) are loaves that are basically an inch thick, hard, dry, and dense - at that point they are bird food.
If interested, I have a basic, one-day table loaf recipe that is easy and flavorful (all things considered), and is lower in hydration at ~67%. It uses a little wheat germ and diastatic barley malt flour (I grind some beer malt in a coffee grinder for this), but you could leave these out and replace with more white flour if needed.
I just blogged about a sourdough rye. The hydration is just over 80% or exactly 80% if you exclude the levain as done in Tartine. Scroll down until you see the video and you can see how I do the second stretch and fold with enough dough for four loaves. If the dough is not quite so wet I do it much slower. Plus, I was in a rush since we have two toddlers and imposing on the Mrs. to video my bread making is a bit of a health risk.
https://videopress.com/v/ZU852eYr
The blog entry that includes the video is: https://eatingwithdavid.wordpress.com/2016/04/25/country-rye-sourdough/
Maybe something you read will cause you to discover what is going wrong.
since the dough will be a bit less loose and thus a little easier to handle at the same hydration.
That said, I can't help wondering if you've been successful baking lower-hydration loaves. If you have, I don't think that stepping through a learning process from say 65% to 70%, then 75%, then even higher should be difficult enough to result in tossing loaf after loaf. But I can see how jumping into Tartine-style recipes either as the starting point or with little experience would be much more prone to problems.
Yeah, I think I'll switch to bread flour and try a lower hydration. It sounds like I need to master simpler dough first.
I've had great luck with stretch and folds. When I'm worried about gluten development - like if it doesn't seem to have come together well after the final dough formation or if at the end of the S&F period it doesn't seem to be strong enough, I'll throw in more S&Fs and/or slow things down by retarding in the refrigerator. If you haven't done that, you might try playing around with those things. I'm definitely a underdeveloped hobby baker, but I think figuring out how to get your dough right before moving to the next stage, rather than following recipes exactly is important given the vast array of factors affecting your bake.
Even when it doesn't seem to have come together well, though, almost every time it will come out well if it's sat in a banneton 12-24 hours in the refrigerator. Sometimes I set it out on the counter while the oven warms, other times I'll put straight from the refrigerator and into a hot dutch oven. It depends on how it looks. Are you using a banneton or some other vessel for your final proof? That's really helped the quality of my higher hydration doughs.
Yes, I'm using bannetons and everything. But I will try to slow things down. I've been using a thermometer and keeping the dough at 76-82 degrees, but I'm not sure of the accuracy since it's more of a meat thermometer. Perhaps it's cooler than I think and I need to let the gluten relax more? My last batch that I put in the fridge overnight was one of my best.
That sounds far too warm for a long, slow fermentation. Cool it down A LOT and you might have more luck.
Absolutely agree! My first batch was very difficult to shape and the bread was flat using even if I followed strictly the Ken Forkish methods : 75% hydratation, slow fermentation (12h), 2-3 folds, etc.
My main problem was WATER TEMPERATURE: I was obsessed with water temperature and I heated up water in the microwave in order to reach a precise 86°F (30°C) as Forkish recommend. After several attempts and bad results I decided to give up with warm water and use cold water, straight out the tap. This solved all my problems and I realized that water temperature obsession is a non-sense with autolyse and long fermentation. My dough was just too warm, too much fermented and lead to gluten destruction... and a flat bread.
So, give up with water temperature and forget your thermometer! 30mn autolyse and long fermentation (5 to 12h) is insensitive to water temperature because your little batch (1 or 2 kg) will reach room temperature quickly. The real risk with warm temperature is overproofing, overfermentation and a slack dough...
Is your bulk ferment long enough/warm enough? I haven't had problems with the Forkish method (the opposite in fact--something of breakthrough with it) so it's hard for me to troubleshoot. It occurs to me that the no-knead method (a la Lahey) accomplishes all its gluten development with out any stretching/folding at all, letting the fermenting action do it instead.
Hi Squadala,
There are two or three things that helped me tackle, and ultimately conquer the Tartine country loaf. When I began, my loaves were dense & flat, even after nearly two years of trying what I thought was everything. I actually got very discouraged, and lost interest for awhile. I finally decided to give it another whirl, and have been baking what I think are truly perfect loaves ever since. They might not be EXACTLY Tartine loaves or Tartine method, but my friends beg me to make more now!
Here is what helped me, maybe it will help you, too.
1.) Cut the recipe in half (but kept the additional 50grams of Water the same, so 325+50). Then "failures" only feel half as bad, and you can just focus on the one loaf.
500g Flour (100%) - NOTE: I use 90% KA Bread Flour & 10% KA Whole Wheat Flour mixture for starter and bread.
375g Water (75%) - NOTE: Use 325g initially, and then add 50g later with the salt
100g Starter/Levain (20%)
10g Salt (2%)
2.) Use MATURE starter, not young as Tartine recommends.My recipes never worked until I had a starter that grew three to four times it's volume in the jar, and I use it when it's at it's craziest. (This will almost certainly be upsetting to Chad Robertson, please forgive me Chad!)
3.) Just think of your Starter and Levain as the same thing. A day before baking I just feed my starter enough (plus a little extra so you have some left over) to cover the recipe. I just pour my 100g starter right into the 325g of water, and it ALWAYS floats.
4.) I use the same bowl for every step, except the final proof. Weigh everything into the same bowl, following Chad's basic procedure. Nothing fancy. (Although I had bought every gadget and container on Amazon!)
5.) When adding the salt, I find it better to mix the 10g Salt into the 50g Water before adding to the dough. (This might be upsetting to Chad Robertson, please forgive me again Chad!)
6.) I don't get much rise from the Bulk Ferment, if any, and certainly not nearly what the Tartine book says I should. But the dough softens and billows nicely, and is ready to pre-shape after exactly 3 hours, turning every 30 min. Don't wait for some "amazing rise." And the final proof is fine after about two hours, ready-to-bake. I live in Los Angeles, and have a fairly warm kitchen, though.
After that, I pretty much stick to the Tartine method, with the bench rest, stretch and folds, final proofing. But between the Flours and the Starter changes, as well as simplifying the process for myself, my bread took on a whole new life. I actually look forward to baking now, because I know it's going to be consistently successful. I think dense, heavy loaves are finally behind me.
One more thing: I have a wine fridge that is set at 55F. I put my final shaped, proofed dough in there overnight in a Brotform (a bowl would work fine as well), covered, and baked the next morning, and it came out as good as anything I've ever tasted.
Enjoy, and hope this helps anyone!
Rob
P.S. It just occurred to me that this is way more information than you asked for, and might not have answered your specific question at all. :o) Ha, well I'm kinda new to this forum thing. What caught my eye was your comment about your loaves being flat (and possibly dense?). I remember how much it sucked that my loaves never seemed to have any oven spring. But they do now!
Yes, this was exactly my problem! After months of trying they all just came out flat and dense. I'm trying this out right now. I hadn't considered using a mature levain.
I find that doing a final proof overnight in the fridge really helps. The colder dough holds its shape much better.
But if the Tartine recipe isn't working for you try another one would be my advice. If you look at Tartine videos his loaves are pretty darned flat. Here's an image of a loaf from the bakery I googled up.