April 2, 2016 - 4:43pm
Video and a Question
I thought I'd share my latest video for anyone who might be interested. It's a recent bake I did of a 50% whole wheat sourdough. But I'm fairly new here and still learning the ropes so I have a question: what's the proper forum for posting these kinds of videos in the future? I've been averaging a video a week or so and I don't want to wear out my welcome by posting inappropriately. Should I start a blog here? I'd appreciate any guidance from the regulars. Thanks!
Trevor
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Question though: What is the temperature of your kitchen? And what temperature is the water you use? I guess that is two questions. ;-)
Well I watched it again and I have a couple more question: How long do you knead it in the bowl and how much time do you allow between the last fold and removIng the dough from the bowl to preshape?
Okay one more: Why do you add the salt with the water at the beginning? This is not something I have seen before.
And yes please, blog away. I am a newbie here but it would make it much easier to find your videos.
I'm glad you like 'em. My kitchen is cool -- between 62-64F this time of year, but I proof my dough (usually) in my Brod & Taylor proof box set at 76F (which is actually around 78F). When I mix using the pre-mix method, I do so with the intent to chill my dough in the fridge, so I just use cold water. When I mix in a more traditional manner, my water temp can vary.
Truthfully, I never measure water temp (or dough temp). If I need my dough to go fast for some reason, then I"ll use warm water (just warm to the touch). But mostly I use cold water anyway. Since I mostly just bake one loaf at a time, it doesn't take too long for the dough to come to the ambient temperature. Warm water can kick start the fermentation, but that's not usually my goal.
In fact, I often use cold water and refrigerated flour to keep my dough nice and cold. I prefer a long slow rise and I feel I get a better dough quality and crumb that way (and flavor, of course). Since I don't usually need to keep to a schedule on days that I bake I can just let things linger as long as they need to.
However, I don't recommend mixing such cold dough if you don't have a very active starter or if you're new to baking and are not able to read your dough with a high degree of confidence -- cold dough can very easily lead to underproofed bread. For newer bakers, I think it's best to keep your dough on the warmer side until you've developed a good feel for the various degrees of proof in your starter and dough. So water temp would depend on your ambient temperature and flour temp, among other things.
As for the kneading, I don't do it very long. The dough is nicely developed from the overnight rest, so I just knead enough to get the starter fully worked in. It usually looks something like this . . .
1) Add starter then knead for 5 minutes or so -- until it begins to tighten to the point of tearing.
2) Stop and let dough relax for 10-15 minutes (covered).
3) Return for another 5 minutes or so of kneading at the end.
Now, sometimes I need to throw in one more bout of kneading to make sure the starter's fully incorporated, but that's more often necessary with the stiffer doughs. All in all, the whole process usually takes me 30 minutes -- half of which the dough spends resting while I drink coffee and read the news.
I noticed when I rewatched my video that I forgot to add the time difference between the last fold and turning out my dough. So thank you for asking. It was 1 hour. But sometimes I'll just give it 30 minutes if the dough tells me that it's almost ready for pre-rounding. I go by feel so it can vary, but 1 hour is the most common number.
As for the salt, I add that into the water because it'll be more easily dissolved into the dough. Remember, this dough is pre-mixed the day before. If I didn't add the salt during the pre-mix stage then the dough could develop a bit too much enzymatic activity or wild fermentation -- enough to develop some off flavors. That's why I chill the dough first, and add the salt -- it helps to slow all that activity enough to prevent unwanted effects.
Let me know if you have any more questions.
Cheers!
Trevor
Hi Trevor,
Your videos (and new blog) are awesome! I'd post them in the Sourdough section of the forum (or other appropriate section). I imagine other readers will really welcome them here, and I'm already thinking of making this loaf in the next few days, when I have some free time.
My suggestion is that if you are positing a video that has a more detailed write up on the the blog then add a a link to that along with the video, so that people can choose whether to watch the video or read according to their preferences.
One minor suggestion for the blog. How about giving bakers' percentages for the recipes too? I work them out percentages for recipes I want to use, but having them written down saves some mental math when reading a recipe for the first time.
Best wishes and many thanks for sharing your knowledge! Colin.
I think you're right, it would be more helpful to include the link to my blog with the video. I considered posting it with this video, but I just felt like I might come off as spammy. Maybe I just need to get over it.
As for the bakers percentages, again I believe you're right. I originally intended to include them, but I was running into some formatting issues. Everything's a work in progress, but I'll be adding them sooner rather than later, methinks.
Thanks for your input Colin. And for your kind words.
Cheers!
Trevor
Welcome Trevor,
Nice work on the videos, blog, and the bread.
Has there been a discussion of your technique and the arguments you make on dough handling technique, hydration, autolyse, and crumb?
I think TFL'ers would really dig into it, esp. those convinced that hydration is the answer (and I'd be happy to start a thread, but thought I'd let you frame it however you'd like).
The positive feedback I've been getting on the videos has been very encouraging. I have much more confidence in my baking skills than my videography skills. But I'm learning.
I'm pretty new to the forum here, so I don't know if there's been any discussion of the "hydration vs. technique" debate for achieving an open crumb. I imagine there must be a few threads here or there arguing the points. It's certainly a discussion I'd love to partake in.
Cheers!
Trevor
My additional $.02 - I like the videos, and the instruction and commentary they provide...But I most always want a bit more from even well done versions like yours - focusing on just what it means to, for instance, "handle the dough gently" - what exactly are you looking for and doing that makes it gentle? what is it that you want to avoid? what makes the critical difference between rough and gentle? Similarly, when people wanting to learn hear things like "if it needs more time" providing the insights for interpreting the evidence and making the judgment are the most vital pieces. I always want to know that the expert is looking at, how they are interpreting what they see, and then how they are responding and why. Injecting a bit more 'key insights' could ratchet up the instructional value even more (even when the extra info. in the blog is taken into account). Keep up the good work!
I've been trying to balance what I show in the videos with what I describe in the accompanying blog posts, since I intend for them to be a complimentary whole.
But it's tricky.
Additionally, I'm very hesitant to give absolutes since I believe that bread baking is a highly dynamic and adaptable process. What works one day might not work the next. And what works for me might not work for you. That's just the nature of the craft.
So I see exactly what you're saying. I need to better illustrate my thinking process. Better explain the signs that I'm responding to and why I respond one way instead of another.
Boy, that's gonna be a toughie. So many of these things are just second nature that I don't even think about them anymore. But I think you're right. I'm gonna work on it.
Cheers!
Trevor
Yes, there are endless discussions about open crumb, but you take a clear, thoughtful stand that (as you say) is counter to much of the conventional wisdom here, so it provides a nice medium. I'll try to frame something constructive around your piece on getting a more open crumb (with less heart-ache and frustration for many).
I'll be keeping my eye open for your post. It should make for a good discussion.
Trevor
would mind seeing one a week from you. Way better than reading one of my posts. Well done and
Happy baking.
I'm glad you liked the video DBM. And it's good to hear that folks wouldn't be put off by me posting videos on occasion. That makes me feel a whole lot better about putting them out there. Thanks for your feedback.
Cheers!
Trevor
When you dimple and then fold the dough to incorporate the starter, how well do you actually need to incorporate it? When I tried your method (only once so far), it seemed to take a lot of folding before there weren't obvious large globs of starter within the dough. Do I need to fold this much or do the globs disappear over time as the dough ferments and as it receives the ensuing hourly folds?
The amount of folding necessary depends on several factors: the hydration of the dough, the hydration of the starter, and the amount of starter. Generally speaking, the stiffer the starter and/or dough the more kneading required. And the smaller the amount of starter, the more kneading required.
This method doesn't work too well if you plan on making a stiff dough with a small amount of stiff starter. You'll be kneading all day with little to show for it. Of course, you can reserve some of the water and add it with the starter to help it incorporate better, but when it comes to that scenario I usually just use a different method.
Regarding the videos, I edit them quite heavily to reduce the video run time. What you don't see is the full time spent kneading, and the stop/start method in action. For a dough of this consistency, it usually takes a total of 10-15 minutes spent folding over the course of 2-3 rounds of kneading with 10-15 minute breaks in between. With a wet dough, it might only take a few minutes of mixing in the bowl to get everything fully worked in.
So long as you're not tearing your dough, it doesn't really hurt for you to take your time to be extra sure that everything is fully incorporated. You're correct in that the proofing, folding, pre-rounding, and shaping will all contribute to the incorporation of the starter. But if you see big streaks of starter running through the dough, it's best to keep folding/kneading until it's spread throughout a bit more evenly. You don't need a perfectly homogeneous dough, but the more even the better.
Cheers!
Trevor
I basically didn't pay enough attention to realize the amount of folding / kneading you do, which led me to think with no reason (other than wishful thinking maybe) that it would somehow need less than when I add starter to autolysed flour. My bad.
I'm glad you like the video! I would guess that your starter has definitely gone too long between feedings before using straight in dough. But if you say you can get good bread from infrequent feeding then let experience be your guide.
But . . .
Typically a starter needs to be brought back to strength after a long stay in the fridge before it will have the necessary vigor to properly raise bread. That's normally achieved through a few room temperature refreshment cycles. The point of the multiple refreshments is to remove the accumulated acid load from the long stay in the fridge, and to return the starter to an active state. Once these two goals have been met you're usually good to go. If your starter can double in volume within 8 or so hours after feeding it you're probably good (through tripling in volume is better).
As for my next video, I'm not sure. I was on a pretty good roll but then my website started getting a lot of traffic. Now I find myself spending much more time in correspondence than in creating content. I'm going to have to figure out a better way to manage my time. I have several videos I plan on making, hopefully soon. But I don't know for certain when I'll get to it.
However, if you're on Instagram look me up: @trevorjaywilson. I frequently upload short video clips to my gallery there. IG only allows up to a minute of video, but I have several video posts showing specific techniques like scoring and shaping, along with instructions and discussions in the comments section.
Cheers!
Trevor
I'd never seen your blog before, but your loaves are really lovely!
I'm trying to get more whole grains in my bread, i did a 40% loaf last week, so this is a recipe i'll have to try!
Ru
p.s. i just signed up for your blog, so i'm looking forward to seeing your next posts!
I'm glad you like my blog! I've several posts in the works, but I've been a bit slow with things lately. I'll get there though!
Cheers!
Trevor
I too have just signed up for your blog. loved what you are saying and so much in it resonated with things that have happened in my life recently. so I look forward to future posts.
Leslie
I'm glad you found my site and that it resonates so well! There will be plenty more posts to come.
Cheers!
Trevor
I too have signed up for your updates. I spent a lot of time yesterday reading much of your blog. I especially enjoyed the ruminations. You express yourself clearly and your videos are comprehensive and provide clarity.
I appreciate that! I have so many more "ruminations" I need to add to my site, but I'll get them up -- hopefully sooner rather than later. I'm glad you enjoy them.
Cheers!
Trevor