Sourdough problems
Hi everyone! First time poster. I'm relatively new to sourdough bread baking, and am working hard to make free-form artisanal batards. But I'm doing something wrong, as I consistently get huge holes in my batards and a dense, chewy almost Lender's-bagel-like crumb. I've baked free-form loaves using fresh yeast and am very happy with the results, but every time I try to replicate my fresh yeast work with my sour dough starter it ends up like the picture. Here's what I'm doing:
Sourdough starter:
Of my own making. Stored in fridge. About three days before I plan to make the dough I remove it, discard most, and feed it a 1:3:3 starter/flour/water mixture every twelve hours and keep it at a temp of around 70F. It's usually good to go and passes the "floater" test around the second day. If it doesn't pass the test I feed and wait till it does.
Dough:
940g KA white bread flour
60g WW flour
720g room temp water
200g 100% hydration starter
20g salt
Technique:
Mix starter into water, mix flour into that and autolyse for 60 minutes.
Add salt and knead using the slap and fold technique. After no longer sticky, fold into itself and put in oiled container.
Let sit in container at room temp, every 45 minutes stretch and fold. After second fold, put in fridge for 20 hours. (Note: when removed from fridge there is little to no rise, unlike with fresh yeast. There are small bubbles present (the container is clear plastic so I can see the sides of the dough), but it doesn't look anything like what the fresh yeast looks like and certainly does not double in size).
Remove from fridge, place onto lightly floured surface and fold it horizontally into itself three times until it is a smooth log. Divide into roughly 475g pieces.
Take each piece and form batard on lightly floured surface using the method from KA. (Note: unlike with fresh yeast dough, the sourdough is still pretty sticky after this. Bench rolling isn't smooth and requires more and more flour to keep it from sticking and malforming the batard.)
After forming, move batards to linen couche and let rest/rise for 1.5 hours.
Steam oven, and bake the batards at 450F for 14 minutes with steam, and 12-15 minutes without.
The crust comes out great, if a bit uneven in the browning, but all the loaves develop these huge bubbles and the crumb is very dense/chewy.
Please help!
I think the problem is that you haven't had enough fermentation happen, sourdough needs a lot more time than commercial yeast so I think time is missing from your recipe.
When making sourdough I usually make a preferment with the starter and half the flour all the water and leave it at room temperature for 8 to 12 hours. Then mix the dough and let the first rise happen at room temperature for 8 to 10 hours, then shape the loaves and let them rise overnight in the fridge. Usually bake within 15 minutes of removing from fridge. Your conditions will vary from mine so you need to adjust your process. We only heat our house to 19˚C so things may happen slower than in a warmer house but it gives you an idea of the time involved.
Gerhard
Thanks Gerhard. I thought that putting it to the fridge so soon was hurting the fermentation, especially since I'm not using warm water in the initial mixing. Will take this into consideration!
Might be your problem, along with the amount of flour you're using on the bench. Your hydration also looks quite high, hence the massive attack of the "stickies" when you come to handle your dough. A few things you might want to try to rectify the problem are:
1) Lower your hydration to a point where you're comfortable with the dough you have to work with. Around 65 % should be a good starting point, and then just take it from there.
2) Swap the flour on the bench for water when working sticky dough. It might sound odd, but it works.
3) Change the way you shape loaves. There are several ways of doing it - look for one that works for you.
I wouldn't do all of these in one go. Try them one at the time and see if it makes a difference.
HTH :-)
Thanks for the tips. I'll definitely try the water instead of flour trick, never heard of that but always willing to experiment.
That is the exact dough I get when my starter does not pass the float test. Is the starter "stringy" and "light" and does it break the surface of the water as it happily floats? If not, it is not ready.
The formula is close enough to the Tartine Basic Country Loaf that I do not think it is a hydration issue. And, I would make the following recommendations:
1) Bulk ferment for 4 hours. Stretch and fold 4 times over the first two hours and maybe a 5th time after the third hour.
2) After four hours (excluding the autolyse time), shape the dough and if baking same day, leave it at room temperature for another 4 hours or so before baking. Otherwise stick in the fridge and bake the next day sometime.
Room temperature should be 75 degrees or the time will be longer than noted. To get your oven that warm it may be enough to just leave the light on with door closed, or including a pot of very hot water.
From what I can remember the starter was bunched together and sticky when I did the test. Like really thick marshmallow fluff. Can't remember if it broke the surface of the water. In general, at what stage do you do the float test and decide it's "time" to use the starter? Is it soon after the starter doubles following a feeding, or can you wait longer? I guess I'm trying to ask, what is the optimal time to use a starter following a feeding?
Also thanks for the suggestions re: ferment.
Typically I create my levain by taking a tablespoon of starter, mixing it with 100 grams of warm water and then add 100 grams of flour 50/50 AP/whole wheat. I mix it up in the evening. This gives me just over 200 grams of levain. In the morning, I hope to see a bubble or two popping at the surface. If it does, it almost always floats beautifully. If you wait too long I suppose you may get it after its peak.
I then add the water to the levain (the whole thing basically floats at that point and disperses easily), mix the dough and get busy.
I think gerhard is on to something re. the short initial ferment.
Natural yeasts are not as strong/fast as commercial ones and my guess here is that you don't give it long enough before putting it in the fridge - which is effectively stopping the natural yeasts - whereas commercial ones might carry on - although slower.
So you're doing a mix -> knead -> rest 45m -> s&f -> rest 45m -> s&f -> fridge.
So it's only had 1.5 hours ferment time.
When I make sourdoughs like this, I never use the fridge but they get a 10-hour ferment in a coolish place - about 18C seems ideal by my crude reckoning, but between 16 and 20 seems fine for my breads. So that's effectively overnight, then in the morning, tip out, do a single stretch and fold which tightens things up, scale (as I usually am making more than 1 loaf), pre-shape, rest (10 minutes), then shape, put into whatever i'm using (couche, banneton, basket) and leave to prove in a warmer place (bakehouse is warming up - the ovens are one!) and that's usually 1.5 to 2 hours.
If I were to retard it, I'd do it at the point of shaping - so shape the loaves, into bannetons, etc. then put in the fridge (covered) My timings are designed to work with me though - make the dough up last thing at night, sleep, wake -> bake.
My usual recipe is similar to yours but I use a bit more starter and a bit less water - for 1Kg of flour it would be 200 wholemeal, 800 white, 300g starter (@ 100%), 570g water and 16g salt. That gives me 2 large loaves.
-Gordon
Hi Gordon,
The timetable is more or less accurate. There is another hour in there at the beginning for the autolyse, but once that's over and it's kneaded there's about 2 hours at room temp then it's off to the fridge. I'll try letting it go longer out of the fridge, or not at all!
This seems odd and unnecessary. If your starter is mature and active, you can use it right from the fridge to mix your dough right away without having to plan or do anything so far in advance of your bakes.
Assuming you're using somewhere around 200 gm per bake, it seems a lot simpler to keep maybe 250-300 gm in the fridge, and when you take out some to use, replenish the remainder back to the original 250-300 gm.
As for the nature of your loaves, Gerhard seems to have hit on the most likely issue. If you want a properly risen loaf, you need to allow enough total bulk ferment and final proof time for the dough to rise properly. SD takes much longer than commercial yeast. With the ratio of starter that you're putting into your dough, I'd guess it needs at least 12 hours total at room temp for those two stages, and quite possibly more. Btw, gauge by how the dough feels, not by time since the time for the same recipe to be ready to bake can change due to various factors such as room temp.
The three days is to give me enough time in case things go awry and/or I can't bake the bread for any reason. For instance, this last time I took it out Friday night and fed it, it grew, then i fed again twelve hours later on Saturday morning, same growth, and then fed again Saturday night. But when I did the float test the next morning the starter sank, so I gave it another feeding and waited till about midday, at which point I tested again and it floated, so I mixed the dough then. Perhaps I'm not finding the optimal time to use my starter?
after you do the 1:3:3 feeding? How much and how quickly does it increase in volume? Has it peaked and then started to fall by the time you mix it into your dough? If so, it would seem you're waiting too long after feeding to use it.
Fwiw, while some people swear by the float test, others don't use it at all. If you mix your dough when the starter volume is at peak or a bit before, you should be fine, assuming your base starter is active / mature enough to bake with.
It depends. After the 1:3:3 it usually doubles in volume, maybe 2.5x, in about 6-8 hours. I usually try mixing in to the dough about 6 hours after a feed, but you know how it goes, sometimes things come up and you can't do it when you want to, so occasionally it might be later, like at the 12 hour mark. Maybe next time I'll just assume that a doubling in volume means it's ready and start mixing then, regardless of how the float test goes.
...of suggestions. From the photo I can see you've got a flying crust - the tunnel created when the dough collapses beneath the crust. It usually happens when a loaf is over-proved in a too-dry environment. The yeast in the over-proved dough becomes exhausted, produces less gas, and the loaf collapse back on itself, leaving large holes beneath the dry, firm crust (and creating the dense dough you can see around those tunnels). Two things you need to do: first, make sure the loaves are covered correctly doing the final proof; second, don't be a slave to timings - do the finger poke test (frequently) and bake as soon as the loaves are ready.
Btw, here's a link to the SFBI's excellent video on shaping high-hydration doughs. The secret is to use less rather than more flour. Takes a bit of practice but worth the effort.
No apologies necessary, all the responses have been very helpful!
I did finger poke and was very conscious of not letting it overproof, having fallen victim to that before. It seemed fine---in the first hour the dough was very wet still and stuck to my finger when I poked it. After another 45 minutes it was less sticky and making a depression but not bouncing back super quick, so I thought I was ready. I'd say the loaves were out of the fridge, shaped, and proofed for all of 2 hours. They were still quite cold even. Will keep this in mind though.
I don't believe that over proofing is the issue, when over proofed the crumb has bubbles that are way wider than high in this photo if anything the bubbles are higher than wide. Also the crumb looks kind of marzipan like which happens when under proofed.
Gerhard
I have very similar pictures of baking bread with a new starter before it really established itself. You get something similar if you bake with commercial yeast that's past its prime. I think I would try feeding your starter every day and keeping it out of the fridge between feedings. Once it's baking bread the way you like that's when I'd stash it in the fridge if you won't be baking for a bit.
I generally keep a small amount of starter so I don't feel bad about discarding way down when I refresh. And I'm a fan of 50/50 AP and some kind of stone ground flour/whole wheat.
Anyway, that's my hunch, put the starter back on a training regimen for a while and then try for some bread again. In the meantime you can make some fine bread with fresh yeast to tide you over. Or maybe you know somebody who could give you some of their starter.