The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Too Much Steam?

EKMEK's picture
EKMEK

Too Much Steam?

Hello all,

I have been experimenting with Baguettes for a  long time, with a varying level of success. One problem baffles me: the baguette are too wet.

I use steaming towels on the baking stone, and heated stones on the lower level, on which I pour half a cup of water. I remove the towels and stones after 10 minutes.

The oven is pre-heated for an hour to 500 degrees, and at the start of baking the temp is reduced to 480 degrees.

However, when I checked the oven's temp, I found out that as soon as I start steaming the temp drops to 400 degrees, and never rises above 420.

Is this normal? or am I injecting too much steam, or what?

I am sure that you guys have the answer.

 

thanks,

David

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Unless you are doing something else that is causing a problem, like your oven is never re-firing after you introduce the dough and steam.  Nothing unusual at all.

With an electric oven I preheat to something like 500dF for 45 minutes, adding one Sylvia's steaming towel at ~ the 1/2 hour mark for the final 15 minutes.  That's one rolled up terry towel in a pan of hot water.  After loading my dough I pour 2 cups of near boiling water into a pan of preheated lava rocks.  Closing the oven door, the oven temp is reset to ensure that it will re-fire to the correct baking temp.  ~12-13 minutes later I open the door to terminate the steaming by removing the towel pan and then rotate the dough on the oven deck.  By this time all of the water in the laval rock pan has steamed off.  

(forgot this part) - And never have a problem with too much steam.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Steam in your oven can limit the temperature it achieves; this is not unheard of. It's one reason you remove the source of steam partway through the bake. It will come fully up to temperature with the steam gone.

I don't understand the point of preheating it to 500 F for an hour. Your oven should come up to temp in less than 10 minutes. Any longer than that and you're pissing away gas or electricity.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

for several reasons:

  1. When my new electric oven seemed to heat up slowly last year, I timed how long it took to hit milestone temps.  19 minutes to 500dF, I just checked my notes.  I called up GE to verify whether this was normal and was told that it was.
  2. Just because the air inside the oven may hit 500dF, doesn't mean the baking deck does.  I want that deck to absorb the heat for a period of time in order to provide a thermal mass that retains heat and will not cool down much when the cool dough is loaded or the oven door is opened.
  3. In order to pre-steam the oven it will take a few minutes of introducing a sufficient source of steam to fill the box.

Even with steam my oven returns to the temp set, although it will take several minutes into the bake.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

get to 550 F - my usual preheat but the top and bottom baking stone lags the oven temperature by exactly 15 minutes because of their thermal mass.  When the oven beeps it is at 550 F I load in the mega steam of a towel in a pan of water and  lava rock a in  another pan of water loaded on the bottom rack under the bottom stone,  15 minutes later they are billowing steam the oven temperature has dropped to 475 and the stones are at 450 F.  The bread goes in and i turn the oven down to 450 for steam and then down to 2425 F convection with the steam out,  When the doir is open to load the bread the oven air temperature drops further but the 2 stones and the oven get it back up to temp very quickly.

Total preheat time is 42 minutes plus a bit to load in the steam and bread..

doughooker's picture
doughooker

There are variables which affect an oven's preheating time, such as the volume of the oven cavity, the power of the heating elements, the insulation of the oven, the desired temperature, etc. Mine takes about 10 minutes to reach 425 F, a lower temperature than your 500 F.

Just because the air inside the oven may hit 500dF, doesn't mean the baking deck does.

It is ultimately the heated air surrounding the loaf that bakes it, so I'm not sure what you're driving at. If the surface upon which the dough rests gets too hot you'll have a burnt or too-dark bottom. Been there and done that.

A little-known trick that applies to electric ovens: the heating elements themselves provide lots of thermal mass. When the thermostat cuts current to the bake element, it stays quite hot for some time afterward and continues to radiate heat. It may no longer glow amber but it's hot all right. In a gas oven, when the burner turns off, there is no flame and no heat is being emitted, except from the walls of the cavity which continue to radiate heat, whether it be a gas or electric oven.

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Our new oven is split between an upper, much smaller box, and the lower, much larger box.  We bought it a year ago, one year into my home baking interest, to avoid having to jockey the baking deck tiles in and out of the previous single box oven.

Clearly the smaller box heats up much much faster.  It isn't even a race.  So box size certainly is a major factor in reaching the ambient air temp inside the oven.  My notes say that the bigger box reaches 425dF in ~14.5 minutes.  The smaller box reaches 400dF in six minutes.  So yes, box size is certainly a consideration.

As far as baking surface goes.  Once the air inside the oven hits desired temp. it does not mean that whatever is inside of the oven has, assuming that one places the object inside the cold oven when it is fired up.  Otherwise that 12 pound turkey would be cooked by the time the oven reached full temp.  Same is true with the deck tiles.  Their surface is affected by the air temp, but in order to heat them and their entire density up fully, it will take time for the entire tile to reach oven temp.  With the employment of deck tiles, anything short of that and one will likely be baking the dough sitting on them at a disadvantage, certainly on the underside of the dough.  To me, that translates to an underbaked product.  If one loads the dough directly onto a wire oven rack, I agree with you, the additional time that the oven is on will be negligible.  So in this case, I'm addressing using a baking deck.

Also, the deck tile helps to keep the ambient temperature in the oven from dropping too quickly, just as with your example of the electric element providing some thermal mass, as the tile will continue to radiate heat into the box between the oven cycling on and off.

When I turn the oven off after a bake, the box stays quite hot for an extraordinarily long time with the baking tiles inside.  Before I did home baking, the oven would cool down in a significantly faster time frame.

I don't use a Dutch Oven, just rely on baking everything directly on the tiles.  I'll preheat the oven to maybe 15 degrees more than the desired baking temperature and then reset the thermostat upon the dough being loaded.  My baking temp is set between ~460 and 500 depending on what I am baking, usually ~475 or 480.  I like a dark baked bread - always baguettes or batards and usually two or three bakes a week, and can't recall a single instance where the underside of the loaf came out burned - unless I was completely negligent.

Now, I'm not saying that your experience is/should be the same as mine, I can only report back on my own first hand experiences as well as the guidance of many TFL bakers on this site.  And that's part of what I cherish about this site, so many voices sharing their own experiences and helping us all to get a better understanding of the variables.  Way more that one can ever get out of a few books on a bookshelf. 

EKMEK's picture
EKMEK

You have  all been most helpful, and helped me to understand the process much better.

I wonder if you could address the following questions on the same subject:

 

1.  How much steam is needed for a baguette? how long should it be applied? any criterion for telling when to stop?

2.  I understand now that the oven temp drops when steamed, and then rises again.  any recommendation as for the optimal temp vs. time variation throughout the baking?

3.   How do you decide that the baguette is ready? should the inside be somewhat moist?

Thank you again,

 

David

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

of Pandora's Box being opened!

Let me see whether I can give you an adequate answer, again keeping in mind that I am no authority, just another participant here with some experience.

1.  How much steam is needed for a baguette? how long should it be applied? any criterion for telling when to stop?

 Generally there should be "sufficient steam".  That's a hard one to quantify, because as you saw above, there are different size ovens and a smaller one will require less steam overall to fill the cavity.  As I replied above - for my money's worth:

Adding one Sylvia's steaming towel at ~ the 1/2 hour mark for the final 15 minutes of pre-heat.  That's one rolled up terry towel in a pan of hot water.  After loading my dough I pour 2 cups of near boiling water into a pan of preheated lava rocks.  Closing the oven door, the oven temp is reset to ensure that it will re-fire to the correct baking temp.  ~12-13 minutes later I open the door to terminate the steaming by removing the towel pan and then rotate the dough on the oven deck.  By this time all of the water in the lava rock pan has steamed off.  

The criterion is satisfying the goal of what we use steam.  And that is to delay the gelatinization of the crust, by keeping the surface of the dough cooler and somewhat moist long enough for oven spring to complete, but not so long that it inhibits the crust from properly setting and baking.

2.  I understand now that the oven temp drops when steamed, and then rises again.  any recommendation as for the optimal temp vs. time variation throughout the baking?

 Differing formulae require differing baking requirements.  Go with the author's recommendations.  They have hopefully tested their creations enough times to be confident in both the duration of the entire bake as well as the recommended oven temperature.  Now, I like a dark baked bread, others like a lightly baked crust.  Therefore the bake time will vary for me vs. those who like it lighter colored.

3.   How do you decide that the baguette is ready? should the inside be somewhat moist?

See above.  But a general rule of thumb is that the inside of the baguette should reach 205dF to 210dF.  I never temp. my breads, because after a while I just know what I'm looking for.  There also is the "thump test" whereby one thumps the underside of the bread with a fist and listens to hear whether there is a hollow sound indicating "doneness".  With a baguette's thinness, this may be unreliable and perhaps damage an under baked bread.

The inside will be moist under two conditions - an undercooked baguette that did not complete its baking cycle.  If it is not undercooked then it will be moist if you cut into it too soon and have not given the bread a chance to shed any additional moisture that will dry out over the first hour - or longer depending on the hydration of the dough as well as the types of flours used.

No simple answers as there are so many variables.  Part of the frustration and the fun.  My suggestion is to find a formula you think that you will like and try to duplicate it.  Start simple, move toward complex, don't get frustrated, change one variable at a time to isolate the errors and improvements.  Time, mistakes and experience are the best teachers.

alan

 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I leave the water pan (steam source) in the oven for 20 minutes, remove it and bake another 40 minutes. The color of the crust is my guide to doneness. The temperature is 425 F. This has worked well for me.

Maverick's picture
Maverick

A lot of good information above. The one thing that sticks out to me is the towel on the baking stone. My one worry is that the towels might cool down the baking stone which might make a small difference.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

The towel, if you'll glance again above at what I wrote, actually sits in its own separate pan of water, rather than on the lava rocks.  Eventually, the towel will scorch a little from the exposure in the oven, but my one dedicated terry towel still a lot of life left to it for this purpose.  

A search on TFL for "Sylvia's steaming towel" yields a pretty fair number of references to it from others aside from myself.  That's how I caught on...

alan

Maverick's picture
Maverick

I was referring to the towel used by the OP where it sits directly on the stone.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Towels in the oven, for steaming or any other purpose, makes no sense to me. A pan of water is all you need to introduce steam. If you want more steam, use a bigger pan.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Mega Steam, in a pan of water provide much more steam much faster than a pan of water.  I won't go into why  for you but it all has to do with surface area and how water actually flashes into steam.  It is just science that bores most folks

Happy  baking 

Maverick's picture
Maverick

DBM makes a good point about the "flash" of steam. The big flash of steam is more important than the saturation of the oven with steam. That is why pouring the water in last minute works better than just having boiling water in there in the first place (although both together works well too).

alfanso's picture
alfanso

David,

Here is a link to a blog entry that I posted just now.  It shows what can be done with steam, deck tile and oven management.  I won't cut into these for at least an hour.  This one's for you.

alan 

EKMEK's picture
EKMEK

this is very fascinating.  I wonder whether professional bakers think so much about the art and science of their work as  amateurs do.

So here is a semi-scientific question.  Did anyone try to measure the variation of temp over time during baking with steam. Something like:

Min (-) 20 -  480 degrees

Min (-) 10 - 440

Min 0 - 400

etc

David

 

Alan, I did read your post with the magnificent photos.  Maybe one day mine will look like that...