The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

1-2-3 Sourdough

WendySusan's picture
WendySusan

1-2-3 Sourdough

I stumbled across this in the archives as well as on the Artisan Baker's Facebook group.  Its been two years since anyone updated the original thread.  Has anyone done this recently?  

I put together a dough this morning and its been fermenting now for two hours and I've done 30 minute stretch & folds.  

What's next....do I put it in the fridge to bulk retard for a few hours...will its flavor deepen or continue to let it rise in bulk (its in the my proofing box/microwave) some more in there?  How do I know when its ready to shape?  What's your technique to know when bulk ferment is ready?

I used:

190 gr levain fermented overnight (100 gr. water, 40 gr. rye sour, 50 gr. ww flour)
380 gr. water
570 gr. flour:  70 WW, 100 Rye, 400 bread
10 gr. salt

I'm still not sure how to include the levain components in the hydration percentage but really...do I need to be than anal?  Isn't the purpose of 1-2-3 to make it easy?  Why am I so stuck on this sourdough thing?  ha ha!

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Well let me tell you first Wendy that a 1:2:3 sourdough, with a levain of 100% hydration, the final dough will always be 71% hydration.

I see that your pre-ferment was slightly more than 100% hydration.

You used 40g rye starter (I'm assuming that is 100% hydration with 20g flour + 20g water)

You then added 50g ww flour + 100g water (very liquid!)

So your final preferment was 70g flour + 120g water = 171% hydration (why?)

 

Now for your final dough....

640g flour + 500g water = 78% hydration dough (this end hydration is in a good range)

I'm assuming you were aiming for this and that is the reason for the very liquid preferment.

 

Now for the method...

I can only tell you what I do as I'm sure you know that everyone will tell you differently.

Your aim is to bulk ferment, shape, final proof and bake within a time limit which is before the bread turns to mush because you've left it too long and the starter has eaten through all the gluten.

I do not know how long one has at these ratios for an outside time. But I do know that 4-6 hours for a bulk fermentation, then knock back and shape for final proofing is well within the time limit. So this is what I do.

Should I wish to retard the dough I do so at the final proofing stage after I've shaped it into the banneton.

Hope this helps.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

us made a mistake Abe:-)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

would make the hydration calculating easier by using equal amounts of flour and water  In this case you have 100g of water in the levain and 380 g in the dough for 480 g of water total.  To get the overall hydration all you need to do is divide the total water bu the total flour.  In this case you have 90 g of flour in the levain and 570 g in the dough for 660 of flour total..  480 water divided by 66 flour = 72.73 % hydration for the recipe.which is about 1% more than the usual one with a 100% hydration levain.

Happy Calculating 

Arjon's picture
Arjon

If you know the hydration % of your starter / levain, it's fairly easy to calculate the overall dough hydration. Just break down your levain into gm of flour and gm of water, then add those amounts to the weights of the regular water and flour. Then calculate the dough hydration (hint: with the seemingly most common levain hydration of 100% the overall dough will be around 71%) 

As a simpler example than your recipe, 190 gm of 100% levain is 95 gm each of flour and water, so total flour is 665 gm (570 + 95), total water is 475 gm (380 + 95) and the dough hydration is 71.4%

As for method, I've been baking SD for a few weeks now, including variations of 123, although not a lot, maybe 10-12 loaves in all. I think the exact method to use depends on the type of bread you want including how sour you prefer. Retarding contributes to making it more sour as well as to overall depth of flavor. Other factors that affect sourness are the type of levain and the type(s) flour you use, etc. 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

190 gr levain fermented overnight (100 gr. water, 40 gr. rye sour, 50 gr. ww flour)
380 gr. water
570 gr. flour:  70 WW, 100 Rye, 400 bread
10 gr. salt

________________________________________________________________

Levain: 40g sour rye (I'm assuming is the starter in this preferment) = 20g flour + 20g water

+ 100g water = 120g water

+ 50g ww flour = 70g flour

 

Recipe: 380g water which makes a total of 380 + 120 = 500g water

570g flour which makes a total of 570 + 70 = 640g flour

500/640 x 100 = 78% hydration

 

Unless I'm going crazy.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

.I thought the levain was 100 g of water, 40g of rye and 50 g of ww - not 40 g of rye sour.  171% hydration levain is way, way unusal for most kinds of 1:2:3 breads!  The 78% overall hydration is also a very wet 1:2;3 recipe which is usually 71% hydration .......  but for a no knead 1:2:3 .....78% would be perfect since NK recipes are usually in that range for a white bread. ..

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

I thought the same Dabrownman. One of the reasons why I like the 1:2:3 method is the lack of working out. I know that 100% hydration preferment, or starter straight from the fridge :) [which I plan on doing btw whenever I find I have enough now] will always give you a 71% hydration dough. High enough for good crumb but not too high so it's difficult to handle. Plus you don't have to write the recipe down.

theresasc's picture
theresasc

and I tweaked it a little,  here is what I did:

10 g ww 100% starter

30 g ww flour

30 g water - on the counter for 4 hours

then I did a second build:

all starter

25 g ww flour

25 g water - out overnight

The next morning:

110 gr starter

220 g water

330 g A/P flour

10g blue agave

10 g toasted sesame seeds

10 g toasted wheat germ - autolyse 1/2 hour

added 6g salt, did 4 s & f every 30 min.  Shaped and placed in floured banneton.  That sat out for about 3 hours, then I had to go somewhere, so it went in the fridge for about 3 hours.  Came home, let it sit out for an hour while the oven and stone heated then into a 500F oven, covered for 5 min, dropped temp to 460F still covered for 10 min, uncovered and rotated in the oven, left til internal temp came to 210F - about another 15 min.

Sorry I do not have a picture, I ate it:-)  It had great oven spring, ears, and a thin, crispy crust with a very mild sour flavor.  Over the course of the next couple of days it became more sour.  I was really happy - my first truly successful sourdough loaf.

 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

We want pics :)

Congrats. Pleased it worked and not a straight forward recipe either.

Bon Appetite.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Had to be tasty with all the add ins too.  Glad it worked out for you.

Happy Baking .

RoundhayBaker's picture
RoundhayBaker

.. when you do the second feed of the starter, 70+25+25 you end up with 120g. Did you discard 10g for your 123 dough ratio or is there a typo somewhere?

BTW, the loaf look delicious.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

10 g ww 100% starter

30 g ww flour

30 g water - on the counter for 4 hours

then I did a second build:

all starter

25 g ww flour

25 g water - out overnight

___________________________________________________

 

Whether typo or not perhaps a better build would have been...

1st build: 20g starter + 20g flour + 20g water

2nd build: 60g from 1st build + 30g flour + 30g water

 

Or...

 

1st build: 10g starter + 15g flour + 15g water

2nd build: 40g from 1st build + 40g flour + 40g water

 

I think doing 70g for a first build + 25g flour + 25g water (if you are particular about catching it at peaking) might be considered a poor feed. But as you can see it does work. I'm just a bit pedantic about working through a recipe a bit orderly and doing things a certain way. I am I favour of good feeds. Only a suggestion and a pause for thought.

WendySusan's picture
WendySusan

A slight loss from my mixing whether it sticks to my hands or my mixing tools.  That is another question I have. When dealing in such small quantities how do you account for those losses?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

So minimal its hardly worth taking into account. Won't change the hydration or anything like that because it's dough and all incorporated. I scrape it off my hand every few minutes and return to the bowl. Tips to help is to have cold damp hand so run under cold tap and shake off excess water. Also helps when incorporating the salt. You won't be changing the hydration to any noticeable effect anyways. This is very minimal. Hot hands tend to make it more sticky.

WendySusan's picture
WendySusan

but when making these minimal starters couldn't that account for a 10gr difference?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

How so? Explain.

WendySusan's picture
WendySusan

even though I try to scrape every bit back into the container, there is always a few grams loss whether its on the mixing tools, or the sides of the container when emptying it.  If you are working in minimal grams, that has to have some impact. 

Although I do think that worrying about the weight to absolute gram is kind of anal.  That's why I don't worry it too much....after all...what's a gram or three among friends? 

My point was couldn't that account for the 10 gram difference between beginning starter and ending in the final dough?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

And what's a few grams between friends :) But for an idea how about this...

Wash out the container you used to build the starter with water from the recipe.

 

WendySusan's picture
WendySusan

not to have thought of that!  Seriously...it never occurred but yes, I will do that.

So what's on the baking agenda?  I'm going to make rolls and another 1-2-3 bread for Friday's knitting club.  I'm going to cold bulk retard the dough this time.  Shape it from the fridge and let it final proof warm to see how that works.  This first time it was all non-cold bulk/proof and I'm happy with the results.  Apparently I've become the in-house baker for Fridays!

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Shows that your baking is a big success. Nice to be appreciated and the fruits of your labour being enjoyed. Sourdough is very addictive and you've clearly been smitten like me and everyone on TFL. There's no cure :)

I've never done a retard at the bulk fermentation stage. Always at final proofing as it helps me score and I seem to get away with my bad judgement of final proofing time too. Let me know how it goes.

I'm currently working on an Altamura bread. It's a sourdough made from remilled semolina (fancy semolina I think you call it). It is an ancient Italian sourdough which Brad (breadforfun) introduced me to. It is a DOP bread and must be made to certain specifications. Basically if we make we cannot call it Altamura bread. Just a mere copy. It is a working project.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

you can also make more levain than you use in your loaf, and use the rest to build the levain for your next loaf. For example, if your recipe calls for 100 gm, you can make say 120. When you take out 100, you're left with 20 that you can use as the mother for your next levain. 

WendySusan's picture
WendySusan

is far from that wet.  The levain was the consistency of thick batter and I'm not sure why I did it that way ;-D  But, I started another batch.

Anyway, I calculated it at around 72% as well..using the same method as Arjon and wasn't sure if I'm doing it right...And hey...what's a few grams among friends?

I certainly appreciate everyone's input.

So the dough is now 1.5 times its original bulk....should I now put it in the bannetons?  How do I know when its ready for shaping.  I think that's been part of my issue ongoing...perhaps shaping it too early?  

I figured this 1-2-3 would be a good test case for technique.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Bulk fermentation is for flavour. If one wishes they could knead till full gluten formation then shape and go straight into final proofing and bake. Final proofing is taking the dough to a certain limit. Thisnis why under or over proofing will result in poor oven spring. But it doesn't mean that the yeast has exhausted its supply. To improve on flavour it needs more time so we incorporate a bulk fermentation where one can go over the limit of final proofing and then knock back for final proofing. As long as you bulk ferment, shape and final proof before the yeast has exhausted its supply and breaks down the gluten. So you can do an hour bulk ferment then a final proof or a 4 hour bulk ferment and final proof. Depending on how much starter there was. If you put in a lot of starter and do a 12 hour bulk ferment you might find the starter will turn the dough into mush. Now with 123 method the starter was 1/3rd which gives you well within the range of up to 6 hours which I know by trial and error and not because I am an expert and know exactly how much time it has. So you can bulk ferment for however long you wish if you remain within the time limit. Or you can retard at any stage. 

Hope this makes sense. 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

If you over proof and you still have time then you can knock back and proof again. 

WendySusan's picture
WendySusan

I also got my two books today...Bread and FSWY

And the crumb...as usual we can't wait....you can almost see the steam rising up from the bread!

 

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Beautimous Bread!  Well done and Happy baking 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I can almost smell it!  Gosh, gee, I love the 1-2-3...

I tend to hold back on some of the water while mixing so I can adjust to the starter hydration without doing the math.  You guys are really over thinking this.   

This is such a creative basic formula, easy to remember and I will often weigh up the flour amount with a random mixture of flours.  So much fun!  Even the liquids can be part water, milk, juice etc.  

This is a great recipe to force you to feel, touch, smell and play with your dough and ignore exact recipes.  It makes great free form loaves that have had a final rise in a fermenting basket.  :)  

 

The other thing I like about this formula is that....

If I have an odd pan, and I know how high my dough will rise to fill in the space (lets say it doubles in volume from mixed dough to finished loaf) I can calculate the sourdough needed.  From my experience,

  • 225g of stirred 100% hydration whole flour starter will fill 240g of water volume (or one cup.)    
  • 225g is 94% of 240g.  
  • Put the form on the scales and set to 0.  
  • Pour water into the form up to the rim, write down the weight.  
  • Now divide that total water weight by 2 (or whatever your dough will do when it rises... 3 if it triples)  and
  • multiply by .94 to get total weight of dough.  
  • Divide that by 6 (because 1+2+3 = 6)  to find out the starter amount.  

This should also take into account that the dough should not rise completely to the pan's rim when ready to bake.  The oven should raise the dough more and give it a rounded finish above the pan's edge.  

  • Plug starter amount into the 1-2-3 recipe.  

If after baking more or less dough is needed, change the total dough amount and divide by 6  to get a higher or lower starter amount.  

Example:  Tin on scales, tare to 0, fill with water, water weighs 2000g.   2000g divided by 2 = 1000g     1000g x .94 = 940g So the total dough weight needed is  940g  (excluding salt and or spices)  

940g divided by 6 = 157g    so Starter = 157g,  x 2 = 314g water,  x 3 = 471g flour,  x 3.5 = flour+starter flour= 550g total flour to figure for 2% salt 11g    

Now have your fun deciding what kind of starter, liquids and flours you want to combine! 

Sarah LuAnn's picture
Sarah LuAnn

This is a very useful trick to know! Thanks. I Also love the 1-2-3 recipe for the freedom it gives me to experiment.