Huge holes in Tartine Country Loaf Crumb - Please Help!
hey all! This is my first time posting. Love the site.
I've been baking Chad Robertson's Tartine Basic Country Loaf for a few months now, and cannot get the crumb to act right. I consistently get huge holes near the top of the loaf (not at the surface) which make slicing tough and the bread almost impossible to use for sandwiches. I just want more consistent crumb. The loaves taste great (not as sour as I'd like, but still delicious).
The loaf pictured above is 80% hydration, but I've done everything from straight by the book 75% to 83%.
Recipe/technique:
-900g KA unbleached allpurpose
-100g KA whole wheat
- 700g H20 + 100g
-using 100% rye starter fed three times in 36 hours before. It was roaring. Made 100% leavin with 50/50 white/wheat, which passed the float test fine in the morning. Dissolved 200g of leavin in 700g H20 above, then added flour till "shaggy mess."
Did a 30 minute autolayse, then added 22.5g salt (I like it a little saltier) and 100g H2O. My house was at 67 degrees. Did turns at 30 and 60, then had to go to a meeting, so didn't get to turn at 90 and 120 like I usually do. Put bread in cooler room (64). Came home at 3.5 hours, did a turn, and at 4 hours dough was aerated, flexible, and passed poke test.
I shaped per Tartine: flour on one side, flip over, flip half back over, then shape into ball. I've watched the Tartine video and Chad's masterclass video, and he does it in about 3 movements. It takes me about 10, but I got nice round balls of dough with smooth surfaces and no tearing. Lightly floured and covered for 25 mins bench rest. Edges looked great after bench - nice and rounded. Shaped using Tartine method, but patted down before stretching and folding (not too hard) and after each fold in case my technique is causing me to catch air in there. I may not have the cup-your-hands-and-pull thing down, but the boules had nice surface tension. Put in bowls lined with floured towels, then in fridge for 13 hours, baked at 6am.
Preheated oven to 500 (I have the thermometer in there, it usually gets between 450-475). Preheated cast iron cooker.
Scored with two intersecting lines like Chad does. Tried to get ears. Steamed for 20 mins, then baked at 450 for about 25.
The result is what you see, and it's a constant with my bakes: big holes. I've done 75% hydration like he says to in the book and gone as high as 83. Same result... delicious bread with monster holes in the middle .
I suspect my issue relates to scoring. I've had a couple slide off the peel or get stuck on bowl on way out, thereby sliding into the cast iron in really weird convoluted ways, and they've come out with nice crumbs. I've also noticed my edges tend to have great crumb, but once I get under the score marks I get those massive holes. The other suspect is something in my shaping, but I've watched every shaping video I can find that uses chad's method. I guess I could post a video of me shaping if that'd help, but it seems pretty straightforward.
I've tried much shorter bulk rises, and longer ones out to 4.5 hours at warmer temps (the latter resulted in a total flat fail, which is fine). And yes, I've done the regular 20g of salt.
Don't mean to complain too much - I love the bread, it looks fantastic, and tastes great - but I'm doing something wrong and I don't know what. Any insight you have into what causes this would be appreciated. Here's some other pics of my breads with same issues:
Here's a pic of a loaf before cutting! They usually look solid!
Thank you for any feedback!
Your oven spring and ears look nice.
I'd guess that your gluten development needs to be a bit better, you might want to do more stretch and folds or maybe be more aggressive about stretching and folding (stretch it a bit more/harder).
Pre-shaping and final shaping may also be an issue. After pre-shaping are you letting it sit seam-side-up or down? Same far after final shaping, seam-side-up or down?
I don't think your scoring has anything to do with it.
Regards-
Dave
Thanks Dave!
When I've done the Tartine "turns" I don't always stretch the heck out of the dough. Just grab from bottom, pull up, and fold over the top, then repeat 3 times. I'll try working it a lot harder next time (still cooling off at end to keep gas).
With regard to the rests, I pre-shape and per Tartine leave to sit with the smooth side up. I don't know that there's a "seam" yet, but if there is it's down.
After final shaping, I put the loaves in the basket seam up. I've read about "sealing the seam" but don't really know what that means. Given my oven spring, it doesn't seem as though surface tension is the issue... right? I agree maybe it's gluten development.
You might want to go to youtube and search for Hamelman's King Arthur Flour videos on shaping. The seam is simply where all the dough comes together, the other side should be without a seam and be stretched. Sealing it would mean pinching the edges together so that when you let go of it for rising it won't open up or unfold.
Spring, in my opinion, is a function of gluten development, gluten tension, yeast activity, and steam in the oven. I have not had the same experience as you regarding spring, I've only recently gotten my breads to spring way up and tear/form an ear. The reason I suspect gluten development is that the more you knead the dough (or in your case, stretch and fold) the more gluten development you get and the finer the crumb becomes. So in my estimation you might want to stretch a bit more during the stretch and fold phase.
Are you baking in a dutch oven? It seems to me that steam in your oven and the baking temp are most likely OK.
Cheers-
Dave
Sorry for slow reply. Yes, dutch oven. Steam is fine and I think the heat is ok, but not sure.
and the crumb looks under-proofed to me. It is very difficult to see the crumb shot and I can only see the cut loaf crumb (3 large bubbles) and last photo. The large bubbles should have popped during the folding and shaping, another reason I suspect that the dough wasn't ready for the final proof and could have possibly used another round of folds. If the surrounding dough contains perky tiny round bubbles with dense dough, then this is most likely the case.
I have noticed sometimes with a rye starter that to build with only wheat before adding to more wheat there is a large lag time during the bulking rise of the main dough. This might be happening. I call it starter protesting and it helps to feed the maintained starter some wheat with the rye to prevent this happening. Or to get a little rye flour into the builds and main dough. The rye starter yeast is shocked having to deal with a drastic food change.
You can easily test this with your rye starter in small quantities racing with different flour food, one with only wheat the other with a small amount of rye flour to the wheat. Time them to peak and then feed them again the same flours. See if there are some obvious differences. If there is, then you know to give the rye starter more time during the bulk stages when used with an wheat recipe over several builds.
the edges of the loaves have great crumb ususally, with nicely spaced and appropriate holes. But the middle - which is really what I care about - has the big holes you see, smaller ones towards the bottom, then gets real dense at the bottom.
the lag theory is interesting but I've read a lot of folks (http://tartine-bread.blogspot.com/) who swear by an all rye starter and never have issues.
The timing and feroicity of my stretch and folds is what I'll work on. I have put a little rye into the main before and it does the same as this, but I don't think it can hurt.
I used to do a traditional 50/50 AP/wheat starter and it was very slow compared to my rye. But I haven't done the test you describe.
Thank you for the comments!
I believe Robinson's book calls for a 50/50 ubf/wwf starter with 100% hydration, not a rye starter. Rye behaves differently than wheat! I see more large holes and big surface bubbles when I start with too little starter and allow too long a proofing time. The loaves I bought from Tartine had some surface bubbles as I recall but nothing like the "Moby" bubble in your photo.
I suggest forgetting the rye starter, make the bread with no rye following Robinson's book. Martha Stewart put the formula (I've checked it against the book) up on line here: http://www.marthastewart.com/907240/chad-robertsons-tartine-country-bread
My own formula for a Tartine-like loaf is as follows:
Tartine bread using 66.6% starter
200g starter (contains 120g UBBF and 80g H2O)
415g UBBF
85g WWF
371g water
1/2 tablespoon salt
Result is 13.6% wholewheat and 72.7% hydration, same as Tartine.
is totally fine. I make a leavin which gets bubbly and aerated from the rye. http://tartine-bread.blogspot.com/ is one baker that swears by rye starter, which I find much easier to maintain and it's much more aggressive.
I'll give it more time+folds as others have suggested and if that doesn't help I'll try making a new starter per the book. But I really don't think the starter is the issue.
They have a very good version of Tartine bread using a 100% rye starter. I've found their formula and instructions (and videos) to be most helpful. You can find it here:
weekendbakery.com/posts/our-version-of-tartine-style-bread/
Very helpful.
I did realize that on the very final "scoop" after shaping I hadn't been turning my packaged dough like they do 90 degrees. Maybe that'll make a difference?
This version of tartine has a poolish which I'm not that itnerested in making right now, at least till I start trying baguettes. I want to make the "perfect" loaf from my own starter.
Still, I appreciate it!
I've had this happen a bunch, and part of the issue was rushing the bulk ferment and not enough vigorous turns.
The other thing for me was too much handling in shaping. I'd do the basic process then kept trying to make sure to get it perfectly round with lots of surface tension, chasing the thing around my bench. Chad is incredibly efficient, and even when he does his stitching, it is quick, decisive, and done.
Under Proofing. I've had the same issue. If the bulk ferment doesn't give you a good rise just leave it another 8-12 hours. You likely need a more vigorous starter (same issue I had as well).