The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

My Second Loaf

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

My Second Loaf

I tried my hand at another loaf today, this one with a bit higher hydration (although I'm not quite sure how to calculate that exactly.) I roughly used the Ken Forkish Overnight Country Blonde recipe that I found on the internet (off to buy his book today).  It wasn't exact and to be honest, I rarely weigh flour when I bake bread, I usually go by feel, but I did try following this recipe except for the way he does his starter/levain.

I took my starter out of the fridge on Thursday afternoon and left it to warm up, then fed it a bit and left it overnight. Friday morning, I took out 40g, fed the rest and returned it to the fridge.

Then I fed the 40g starter with 40 g water and 30 g rye flour and went to work.  It tripled in size before I even got home from work on Friday.

I mixed 402g AP flour, 38g rye flour with 342g water and let it sit for 30 minutes. Then I added 11g of salt and my 110g starter and mixed it with the dough arm of my kitchenaid.  I dumped it into a container and did a stretch and fold every 30 minutes for about 3 hours and then left it on the counter overnight. The dough rose so high that it popped the lid off (the lid wasn't closed tight). This photo is about 7 hours later, 10 hour bulk ferment total. I'm not sure if letting it rise this much is a good thing or a bad thing. It just rose a lot more than the first loaf so I judged the timing by that loaf.  Your thoughts/comments?

Notice the green line near the bottom that shows where it started.

 Bulk Ferment 8 hours later

This morning, I formed it into a longer loaf instead of a boule (what is that shape called?) and let it rise.  It rose much more quickly than the first loaf and it was ready to bake in 90 minutes but I hadn't heated the baking stone yet so it sat for another hour. 

I baked it at 450F on parchment on the stone for 20 minutes (spraying water into the oven a few times), then turned it around and planned to bake it another 20 minutes, but it seemed ready in 10 so I took it out after a total of 30 minutes. 

This time I let it cool fully before cutting.

I like this loaf even better than the first. It is a little lighter in texture (assumably due to higher hydration) and the crust isn't quite as heavy, but it is still chewy and has amazing flavour. I am SO stoked about this bread.

Thanks again for all of your help!

Here are a few pics.

And here's a close up of the crumb.

Today I am off to the book store to buy some of the books people recommended, as well as a banneton, a scraper, and razor bade, and a spray bottle. (Merry Christmas to me :)

A few people have mentioned an instant read thermometer.  I have an electronic thermometer I use for meat (the probe goes into the meat and the device sits on the kitchen counter). Would that work?

 

Arjon's picture
Arjon

Been following your starter adventures thread since I will probably be trying sourdough myself as I bake myself out of the newbie stage. 

I'll try tackling a couple of your basic questions. Afaik, hydration is total weight of water divided by total flour weight expressed as a percentage. 

As for your meat thermometer, how quickly does it give you a reading? If it's within a few seconds, I suspect that's okay. The longer it takes, the longer your oven is likely to be open, losing heat. I use a cheap one I had before I started baking. It takes several seconds before the reading stops rising quickly. I'm not serious enough to invest in a thermopen or thermopop. Maybe next year's gift to myself depending how much I keep baking.  

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

It reads pretty much right away but I could conceivable do as I do with meat. Put the probe into the bread, shut the door, and watch the temperature on the counter.

It looks like this.  

http://www.staples.ca/en/Bios-Professional-Digital-Meat-and-Poultry-Thermometer/product_1114931_2-CA_1_20001?kpid=1114931&cid=PS:SBD:GS:n:n:SBD:58:218...

Ingrid G's picture
Ingrid G

A Thermopen is perfect for instant reading. Great investment.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Well done and a 2nd loaf too! 

Happy SD baking

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

well done

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

As a general rule...If your bulk rise is already about a third risen and you want to bake it later (retard it) put it into the fridge or you may have to bake sooner.

Keep in mind that about every hour to 1.5 hrs, the yeasts are doubling their numbers.  This applies to starter and bread.  Look at the ratio of starter to flour basically.  If you feed the starter weight twice the flour weight it will peak sooner and lower than if you feed it 4 times the starter weight.   If you feed less than the starter weight you get a fast burst of growth but the yeast soon eat up the food and activity falls off sooner.  That's working for following recipes with shorter rise times but not for a long time between feeds when maintaining starters, feed more.   You will find yourself treating your maintenance starter slightly different and possible more conservative than your building recipe starter.  

So look at your containers... for rye starters...  I find if I feed twice as much flour as starter expect at least a doubling in rise, it can even triple.  Feed 3 times the flour to starter, can expect a triple or quadruple.  Feed 10 times the amount of flour to starter ---> 10 times the volume.  It just takes a little longer as the first yeast increases are not so obvious then it rises significantly every hour until it peaks, falls and peaks again if left alone.  It rarely peaks a third time without more flour food.  That is your time zone.  You can test any starter or dough in a small narrow glass at the same time you are working with the dough, folding it, deflating it, etc.  When you shape dough, shape the little dough ball as well and pack back into the glass for a final rise.  It works like a gauge if you need it.  Letting it peak is good for starters but not the best for the dough. Then you watch for a third, doubling, or almost double for baking. 

If you are using a wheat starter, or a mix, the rises will be much higher than rye alone.  Give your starter/dough plenty of room to expand.  :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

browning and great crust colour under the loaf too.  Try lowering the shelf a little toward the heat source or changing to a darker baking surface and see how that helps.  

Other solutions might be lowering the baking temp if you find the inside of the loaf a bit too undone or covering the browned top with a foil tent to protect it from too much browning while the rest of the loaf browns.  If using a pan, remove the loaf from the reflective baking pan or baking sheet and rest on the rack for the last 10 minutes of baking.  :)

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Thanks Mini.  I have the stone in the bottom third of the oven, 2nd rack from the bottom.  Might have to play around with the temp instead. I have it on parchment, directly on the stone. Maybe no parchment?  But my daughter used my stone for something greasy once and it has marks and I'm afraid whatever the stain is, will come out in the heat and affect my bread so I've been using parchment.

ETA: I googled and found out the stone darkening is normal and it's probably OK.  I can also leave it in the oven next time I clean my oven and it'll also clean it.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

up longer before parking the rising loaf on it.  Try giving it another 20-30 minutes.  That way the heat from the stone can brown the bottom.

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

OK. I had it in the oven at 500F for an hour though. Should I skip the parchment?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

unless I run out or have seeds stuck to a tin.  Some will slip the parchment out halfway thru the bake, when rotating the loaf, and reuse the parchment over again.  

A whole hour should do it, hmmm...  Take any pics of the bottom?   We only see a scant edge from the photos.  How does it look in 3-D?  

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

I didn't take any pics of the bottom but I will take some of the one I bake tomorrow morning.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Higher hydration bread and white flour will result in a more open crumb. 

This one rose more in the bulk fermentation process, or appeared to, as you did the stretch and folds for the first 3 hours then let it sit overnight. So longer bulk fermentation and you left it to sit for longer without stretch and 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

folds. With your first one you did a shorter bulk fermentation plus you did a stretch and fold every hour so it'll have deflated a bit each time. 

I have just been reliably informed that Canadian flour has higher gluten than US or UK flour. This is why your first recipe seemed to dry and you needed a higher hydration. 

Friday morning, I took out 20g, fed the rest and returned it to the fridge.

Then I fed the 40g starter with 40 g water and 30 g rye flour and went to work.

Typo? 

 

 

 

 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

ya that was a typo. it was 40g.  i fixed it now.

And yes we have good flour here in Canada. 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

So you fed your 40g of 100% hydration starter with 40g water + 30g rye (interesting! was this advised?)

20g flour (from starter) + 30g rye (you fed the starter) + 440g you added to make the dough = 490g flour 

20g water (from starter) + 40g water (you fed the starter) + 342g = 402g water

402 / 490 x 100 = 82% hydration. 

 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Interesting, thanks.  No, it wasn't advised. I just find it's easier to work with 30g flour than 40g.  40g of rye makes it too stiff for my liking, I prefer it to be more like a thick pancake batter. If I use white flour, I can put in 40g instead of 30g.

Is 82% hydration high? Those are the ratios he uses in his recipe except that my starter is a little wetter than his. I thought I might add a wee bit more flour next time, although I was happy with the way this bread turned out.

And remember, I always find I have to add much less flour here in all of my baking, even cakes.

Also, I did knead in a bit more flour as I did the fold/stretch a couple times when it was a bit too sticky but probably only about 10g total, if that.

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

The flour you use in your preferment should be equal to, or higher, than the starter you add.

So you added 40g starter and I would have fed it no less than 40g flour.

Now you did 40g starter (20g flour + 20g water) and added 40g water + 30g rye = 60g water and 50g flour which is 120% hydration.

Is that what you were after?

Or were you making a 110g preferment but not necessarily 120% hydration? 

If you don't like rye at a lower hydration then why not build your preferment with another flour (preferably the one you are using to make your bread) and still keep your starter 100% rye? No reason why not. 

82% hydration is high but if you can work with hydration that high and you like the results then why not? Plus, Canadian flour, due to its high gluten, can handle it well. 

Very high hydration would need more kneading.

 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

Haha, I'm not really sure what I was going for. I just took the starter out of the fridge, let it warm up, and fed it like I always do.  I still have a lot to learn apparently. :) :)

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

You make great bread :)

It's just good practise that's all. Preferments at higher or lower hydrations will give different results. 

Keep it up. Enjoying your culinary creations. 

 

Kelownagurl's picture
Kelownagurl

I made a third loaf today.  I can't cut it because it's a gift for my daughter but here are pics of the outside and the bottom. Also one of the loaf just before I brushed off the excess flour and put it into the oven. I love the new banneton!

 

 

I think I still need practice with scoring.  I did use a razor blade this time, but wasn't sure how deep to go. And maybe more of an angle??

 

 

Here's the bottom.  Is it too dark?

 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Yummy :)

BobBoule's picture
BobBoule

is my master when it comes to scoring bread. After watching his tutorial all my concerns faded away and I started producing some nice looking loaves. I recommend learning this directly from the master.

Scoring Bread: An updated tutorial

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/31887/scoring-bread-updated-tutorial

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Beautiful !!!   Merry Christmas!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Amazing how it works once you get it right!! :)