The Fresh Loaf

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Managing Starter - Not the way of Ken Forkish!

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

Managing Starter - Not the way of Ken Forkish!

People often criticize the Forkish method of managing one's starter.  For example, if you were to make his double-fed sweet levain according to his instructions, you would throw away everything but 50 grams of your starter that you fed 24 hours ago, feed it 250 grams of flour and (200 grams of water) for a total of 450 grams of levain.  Then you'd throw out 200 grams of the levain and feed it 500 grams of flour and 500 grams of water for a total of 1000 grams of levain, before using only 540 grams of it, and presumably, keeping the remaining 460 grams of levain only to discard 410 grams of it for the next bake.

The benefit to creating so much starter that winds up in the trash is that small errors in measurement are much less significant when dealing with huge quantities whereas the same small errors when dealing with smaller quantities are significant (in terms of percentages.  What the impact on the bread is, is unknown to me).

I house my starter in a 1/2 pint mason jar. Here it is after having been fed and then used to create a levain for an overnight country brown.

My jar weighs 147 grams empty. With my culture in it above, it weighed 153 grams.  Since I had 6 grams of culture it was time to feed.  Rounding, I fed it 3 grams water, 3 grams AP flour and 1 gram of whole wheat flour.  That turns out to be 75% hydration rather than his recommended 80%. If I was to not round, I would have fed it 2.7 grams, 2.7 grams and 0.7 grams respectively,bringing me to 79%.  Given the resolution of this scale, lord only knows what I actually put into the mix.  However, to be sure of getting one thing right, I measured the water with a syringe.  Not because I am crazy exact, but because I have trouble pouring that little water into the jar and didn't want to over-pour by a lot.

Here it is, all fed right before going in the fridge.

Note, this is not how I normally do things. But that is because I have no real "normal" way of doing things. Sometimes, for a bake, if I have too much in the jar, I will take out a portion of my already small starter and build it in a new jar, feed the old and stick it in the fridge, and keep the new on the counter until it is ready for use.  I might then have two jars in the fridge, or simply add the old and the new into a single jar, cleaning the old one.     

 

Comments

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

are extreme.... in the extreme.  It isn't a virtue to be so wasteful but it is something else.    Panettone can be just as bad or even worse.  I'm skipping the insane levain build for it this year too.  I'm positive I won't notice the difference.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Hi David,

A bit of a hair on fire title to your post.  Many on TFL are in agreement that Forkish's method of managing starter is incredibly wasteful.  Not that much of an issue, and one can make 1/4 or 1/8 of his starter refreshes, as far as I understand and initially did myself.

If one didn't know better, they might think that you have it in for the man.  But we do, and we know that you love using his book

Considering some of your posts from the past, I'm surprised that your statement is so strong.  Just to quote a very few of your own quotes about Forkish breads and formulae on TFL:

  1. I have to say that I really love the book.
  2. But this bread is really good and makes measuring the yeast worth the effort.
  3. No regrets: I've very much enjoyed learning Mr. Forkish's story and approach and watching his laid-back online videos.  He lands somewhere at the intersection of Chad Robertson and Jim Lahey
  4. The book, in my opinion, is simply a beginner's tool to make stellar bread... I would say it is a "shame" that someone doesn't read this book if they've never made a great loaf of bread, really wanted to, and gave up on the project.
  5. Just made Ken Forkish's 80% biga white last night. This was the best bread I've made yet... Yes, I stayed up quite late for this, but it was worth it!

I'm certainly not picking on you here, but I did think that your post title was over the top.  I do enjoy reading your posts.

alan

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

 It is not an easy thing to publish these days and I say bravo to those who undertake the challenge.  I imagine Mr. Forkish simply wrote down how HE maintains HIS starters to get the results HE wants out of HIS loaves in HIS kitchen.  Would be silly for him to write a book using a method he does not employ.  Building a larger starter will give different results due to difference in the environment.  Any change will result in differences which are all individual preferences in the end as you have discovered.  

There are as many ways to maintain a starter as there are bakers and you have simply found out what has worked for you in your kitchen.  If you were to publish a book I am sure that is how you would instruct others.  I would guess that Mr. Forkish would had no objection to how you have tweaked his method.  In fact, he would probably be happy that you discovered a method that works for you.  

Mr. Forkish has done a great thing in teaching many how to keep things very simple when it comes to making a good loaf of bread out of the just a few basic ingredients.  To slam him as you have done in you title is really quite rude.  When you have baked as long as he has and published your own book - then maybe you will have the experience to challenge him but I would hope you would choose less vulgar words in that challenge.

Janet

 

FlyinAggie's picture
FlyinAggie

Strong bread is one thing; the needlessly strong language is unpalatable.   It is also insulting to those who appreciate the Forkish method.  Vulgarity and rudeness are always in poor taste.  Pardon my puns, but the sentiments are very much true and felt.

 

 

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

First of all, let me apologize for the vulgarity. It was neither heartfelt nor sincere.  I absolutely love his book, his method and his breads.

I'll change the title immediately to avoid giving offense.  

As a practical matter, I understand why he suggests a larger quantity and a discard rather than explaining how to manage a starter to get what you need to make what he offers, because it would be fairly complicated, so it is easier to just have a set make too much and discard the difference attitude.  

And he does suggest that you can maintain less than he suggests. What I find peculiar, however, is that he offers no reason to maintain and discard as much as he suggests.  It would seem reasonable to at least explain why his default formula is to make so much more than is needed and if he lacks a reason to change the default procedure.  I make 1/4 of what he suggests and don't find that it makes it any harder to follow the recipes.  It is conceivable that even though he wants us weighing things, since he also gives volume measurements, this would just be impossible to accomplish if you quartered the levain formulas.

In which case, he ought to say that his formulas are also made for those who are using volume measurements but that they can be scaled back by 1/4 very easily by anybody using a scale (yet another reason to use a scale, he could add).

My apologies for the unpalatable language.

kenlklaser's picture
kenlklaser

The one difference, because I only use the starter once a month, or maybe a maximum of every 2 weeks, is that I keep it refrigerated. The hassle with refrigeration is then it must be built up a minimum of three times and those builds entirely at room temperature before it is ready to be used. I simply don't bake frequently enough with sourdough to make it worthwhile refresh once per day and store it entirely at room temperature.

But as far as having the starter jar pre-weighed to calculate the weight of starter already in it, yep! I'm glad you have figured this out. I also keep the weights of a lot of mixing bowls and some containers pre-recorded, just in case I want to weigh some ingredients already in a container, and can't use "tare". I keep those pre-recorded weights on a piece of paper hanging from a kitchen clipboard.

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

However, I dont feed it 3x before using. Just once or twice depending on when I am using it. 

And I took a fat  permanent marker and marked my jars and cambro containers  on the bottoms. 

kenlklaser's picture
kenlklaser

I keep a couple hundred grams of starter, because there's no discard, there's no compelling reason to keep a small amount. I like the "lazy" management of it.

Great idea on the permanent marker.

ElPanadero's picture
ElPanadero

Hi Dave

Your jar looks way too big for the tiny amount of starter you are keeping (which I thoroughly support btw). You can buy very small mason jars for pennies. Does the size of the jar matter? I'm not really sure but it seems to me that the mix could dry out very quickly the way you have it spread out. The stuff on the side of the jar I guess will go dry and crusty.

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

Not sure they make a smaller one. I've uses baby food jars which work. But the 1/2 pint is nice because I can add more to it as needed. 

kenlklaser's picture
kenlklaser

put in wrong spot, sorry.

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Though I don't go to David's length to cut down on my Forkish starter, I reduce it to a less painful size, too (Einkorn Hazelnut Levain).

My guess: Forkish (and Chad Robertson) are used to baking in large batches in their bakeries, and don't have to throw all their starters out.

Karin

 

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

I don't think the starter use they discuss (make double or quadruple what you need and throw the remainder out) has anything to do with them baking in a commercial setting. After all, they don't provide formulas for making 25 kilos of dough and tell us to throw out 23 kilos when it comes time so shape.  They scaled the formulas down to make two boules.  At least Chad leaves you with only 200 grams of levain to become the new starter though. 

 

hanseata's picture
hanseata

to learn the rationale behind this splurging - is there any good scientific explanation for it? I didn't see a difference between a levain culled from a large starter and one from a smaller one, that was as active.

Karin

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

I have read that dough fermented in bulk gives a different product than if you were to have divided it right off the bat. I can't recall what I read about that, however. It may be the same principle applied to the levain, that it is somehow more active or more/less acidic if it is fed in bulk.  Or it may just be that small errors or small differences in temperature have bigger impact on a smaller amount of the levain so the larger amount is used to smooth out those differences.

I personally think it has to do with the cups and spoons thing. Ken couldn't figure out how to make the formula workable with cups and spoons if he used a scaled down version of the levain formula.

Rick Dooling's picture
Rick Dooling

He flat out says in the book you can do half of what he does in terms of starter. I do 1/4 and if I'm making something that needs a lot of starter, I just make more out of what I save in the frig. So usually I'm feeding using

  • 25-50 grams levain,
  • 25 grams whole wheat flour, 
  • 100 grams all purpose or bread flour,
  • 100 grams water. 

Will make around 250 or more grams levain.

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

I also quarter the levain he suggests.  While I initially thought that maybe he had a reason for making 1000 grams of levain to use only 216, I since concluded based on his writings, that he is writing utter nonsense due to an inability to do math or an unwillingness by him or his editor, to edit his work. 

Case and point: Look at the formula for making pizza dough with levain.  You see, he recommends making 5 pizzas, and here he suggests starting with 50 grams of starter (instead of the 100 grams he uses for the bread).  But then look at the stupid note he writes: If you are going to be making levain for bread as well as pizza, you need to double the levain.  Umm, no. You don't.  You can make the levain for the pizza as you had written it, and still have more than the 216 grams needed to make the bread.

So, while he has thrown in as an after-thought that one can proportionately reduce the levain, the only plausible explanations I have for why he doesn't scale his recipes appropriately (to avoid massive waste of levain) is that he is lazy and didn't want to do so, or he is really ignorant and does not know how to do so.  I would have voted lazy before I saw he went out of his way to be ignorant and advise the reader that they must double the pizza levain in order to make pizza and bread.  

Very very poorly edited. But, the bread is most excellent. It is just unfortunate that he makes it so difficult for the beginner baker not to waste enormous amounts of flour.

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

levain builds and tossing most of it....is because he does it on purpose to make a levain that suits his purposes best -  at least in his mind.  What happens when you refresh often, tossing some of the previous feed and use the levain when it is young (as Chad does) is that the sour is reduced dramatically in the bread.  If his goal is to make the least sour bread possible, along the lines of Tartine or the current SFSD, then making levain the Forkish way would be one way to do it.  I had always thought this must be his goal and he is plenty rich enough to be extravagant with his waste.

But, after messing around with starters for years now and making all kinds if bread, I'm not sure that the Forkish levain waste is worth the effort in the end, or that my palate is good enough to tell the difference.  I'm pretty sure that,  if the levain was built in 3 stages to just the right amount in the end with no excess and tossing the necessary small amount after the first and second feeding to get a less sour levain with much less waste, I couldn't tell the difference in the resulting bread.

His levain method to get less sour I don't quibble about but his building it so huge is another story.  It is the needless waste in my book that needs correcing if I was making one of his breads.  I also think his bread would taste better if it was more sour too but that is just my personal preference and most folks don't like sour bread.,

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

But if that was his thinking, he should express it. But it does not appear to be his thinking since he does not suggest any downside to reducing the levain proportionately and suggests no reason why one "will need" to make more levain if making bread and pizza versus pizza alone (when the levain proscribed for pizza alone yields enough levain for bread as well).  The only reason one "needs" more levain is if one can't do the math to determine that will already have enough of it.

 

 

Rick Dooling's picture
Rick Dooling

I definitely think I get more lift, volume, and taste using starter that has been fed twice (as above) as opposed to only once, but I can't see that the SIZE of the batch makes any difference, at least to my palate. I think it's the ratios that need to be obeyed, not the volumes.

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

I just discovered Ken Forkish and FWSY.  About 1/3 of the way through my cover to cover read the urge to bake overcame me and I got my starter going (refreshed).  As I do for all my batches, I work it up (it's a 25% dry one) in two builds to an 'active' starter and go from there.  In this case I had about 100 g of active starter.

When decided upon the Field Blend #1.  When I hit the starter section, I saw the amount he had me making and without missing a beat just cut the 'final' build to the amount needed in the recipe instead of making so much and throwing it away.  I just assumed he addressed his building technique in a section I had not read yet (i see now that's not the case).  Regardless, it built up just fine and the loaves have got to be some of the best I've baked to date.  I've been hesitant to bake at 475 F for nearly an hour, not really caring for the glossy like appearance and texture.  But this was outstanding. 

Crisp crust, wonderful burnishing and a beautiful ear.  And the taste is out of this world.  So different.  Side note.  That flavor could VERY well have been due to a transcription error on my part.  I read 78 F for a target temperature, but input 87 F into my incubator (so very handy to nail temperatures and keep them exactly where you need them - just a cooler with a heating pad and brewer's controller).  The starter quadrupled in the 6 hour final build and the 5 hour bulk rise was over triple in volume at four hours (I was not home for either span of time or might have changed something)..

Since I'm in Oregon, Ken's is now on my todo list of places to visit.  Maybe I'll see if he would answer questions as to why he builds the way he does. 

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

Keep us posted if you ever talk to Ken. :)

Alchemist42's picture
Alchemist42

I tried to contact him through 4 different avenues and he failed to respond to any of them.  I know he has no obligation to answer at all, but I'm a little disappointed.

taurus430's picture
taurus430

I just received FWSY and going through the book. Not anxious to do much baking since it's too hot to use the oven. I agree very much with David and knew of this "waste" before reading the book from other reviews elsewhere. This recipe will be the first one I will bake also. I just got done learning Tartine and baked 2 loaves which came out awesome. I found Tartine a little easier to understand. In FWSY, I only see the words "bulk fermentation" used at the beginning, but not in the actual steps of baking. It's just set up differently than Tartine's recipe And what I'm looking for in a recipe. Edit: The book does have a lot of good information and detail in it And the variations are done as separate recipes.

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

FSWY makes an incredible bread.  I can't recommend highly enough the field blend #2 and the overnight country brown. Both are outstanding.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

had to help the taste of that bread.  I find the levain methods of KF produce a very weak sour flavored bread and I prefer one much more sour.  Your error will help greatly in that regard.  Well done and happy baking.

AnnaD's picture
AnnaD

Hi form members, I have just ordered Ken's book today and will follow his starter method to the T.. I have made more then one starter using about 5 different methods and I am so mixed up not that I will cast them all out and into the garden tonight..

Using Ken's method will it be to much starter unless I bake more then twice a week? It is all getting me down at the moment, truly tell me it can't be that hard making a SD starter. I have read enough information to write a book. I then think I have a strong starter, I hear it has to be able to rise 3 times before use and pass the float test but even after doing all that I put starter in a container ready to build and it turns into water almost.. AnnaD is on the verge saying Uncle..