Less Sticking to Bowls
So many of us don't have retarders and use our home fridge for retarding our shaped loaves. And many of us struggle with dough sticking to the liner after it's long sleep. More flour! Use rice flour! Yep. .
I started adding wire cooling racks on my fridge shelves and have had the sticking issue go away. I've switched to cut out poster board which i could fill the shelves out with opposed to balancing the loaves between cooling racks that didn't quite fill the space. It's white stuff and seems kinda like styrofoam on the inside. We bought it to glue a puzzle on and had extra. It's completely flat and still does the job. What I found was the loaves were condensing against the shelf of the fridge. Makes sense warm dough and all. This buffer has allowed me to use less flour and have loaves that come out of their bowls without issues.
Figured I'd share as it is quire frustrating when the loaf sticks.
Cheers
Josh
Interesting tip, Josh! Thanks. I'll try that when I retard my loaves.
Khalid
Are you referring to shaped loaves on linen?
I get the part about the racks, but the poster board not so much. Could you clarify?
I tend never to retard shaped loaves just for the reason you stated. I haven't used a bit of flour on a couche when I proof at room temp or above, with no problem, but when I stick the thing in the refrigerator everything sticks like crazy - so I just don't...
Let me know.
Pat
Or bread proofed in a lined banneton in my case. I think it's posterboard that you can buy in an art store. Bout 1/4" thick and seems like the inside is styrofoam. Wire racks worked well too but I do about 16 loaves at a time and the racks had to setup just right for the loaves to sit on. I tried this "poster board" which i cut to the size of my fridge shelves and it worked like a charm. I bet even a towel would work. Separate the warm dough from the usually glass or plastic surface that makes everything "sweat".
Do you use a lined banneton or a bowl and cloth? I can only speak for a true flax lined banneton.
Josh
I am doing freestanding loaves on a real linen couche. I do place the couch on a board and then in the fridge, so I wonder if I placed the couche on racks (I have some really lovely fine mesh racks that are half sheet pan size, so tipping or "rack marks" would not be an issue.)
I tend to be moderate in my dough hydrations. However, the "absolutely no flour" on the couche may be the issue. I just don't like the look of flour on the surface of some of my breads. I'll have to try the racks (maybe with a smooth line towel ?) and see how it works for me. It would save me getting up a 2AM when I want to serve freshly baked bread near the middle of the day...
Thanks.
Pat
Do you proof seam up or seam down? Do you at least roll the loaf through flour after the shape? In my home fridge using proofing bowls offers me the largest bake so I don't have baker's linen for home use. At previous work if the loaf was seam up we floured the couche. If it was seam down we did not. But we always rolled/dredged our shapes in flour and let off excess before placing on the couche. This minute amount of flour may help in your situation. Trying the mesh racks sounds like it wouldn't hurt either.
Cold Bulk Fermentation may also solve your problem without having to proof shaped loaves in the fridge.
Josh
proof seam up. The shape will get pushed through flour during shaping if I feel it needs it - and sometimes it does.
Again, if I don't do a cold proof I have never, ever had trouble with dough sticking to the couche (at any hydration or wholegrain content...) without any flour (I have floured couches when baking in more humid climates, but I live in a pretty dry one) - I only ever have this issue if I do a cold proof. As I mentioned to David, even if I just do a cold bulk, the dough gets wet. Not slack or any indication of hydration in the dough - but wet on the surface. Not a problem in a lot of applications, but it does happen.
Yeah, I could do a cold bulk for scheduling convenience. It has been something I have been resisting for no particular reason except sheer cussedness, but may try it in the future.
Given Phil's input below, I'm thinking I will try the racks...
Thanks!
Pat
I've attempted proofing en couche over night in the home fridge (granted I used kitchen towels as i don't have baker's linen at home) I've found the dough to stick worse than the bowls. I haven't attempted since adding the cardboard but I do believe ti will solve most issues giving the extra buffer of space. But I lightly flour my couche for this process. If you are light with the flour almost no flour will be present when it comes to baking time. And you can always use a pastry brush to remove any excess flour. I too don't care much for a floury crust but it sounds like you are even further removed than I with this. Your described racks sound like a great solution.
Josh
Hey Pat,
I use 'real linen couche' and have been getting much better results on the sourdough and baguette now that I am using wire racks. I was using plastic boards before this and was having lots of issues with the dough sweating. The baguettes have a cold bulk then room temp prove and the sourdoughs are retarded in shape. They both have just enough 'skin' that scoring them is now a pleasure.
Phil
that I'll try using the racks because I generally use plastic boards and yes, the stuff sweats in the refrigerator. Given your input, I may even try the racks for proofing when not refrigerating, because even though it doesn't stick, I hadn't given a lot of consideration to surface moisture - because, well, if it doesn't stick all is well, right? maybe not. Maybe I can do better...
I'll have to pay special attention to the quality of the loaves surface. I'm fairly confident on scoring, but I wonder...
Thanks!
Pat
so just to clarify PiPs - what is resting on what?
Wire rack, then what...is there any board involved? Give us the whole picture...thanks!
I had this issue until I put my bannetons on Kitchen towels in the fridge, than put a kitchentowel over the banneton and only put one sheet of Plasticwrap over the top kitchentowel to prevent the shaped loafs from getting a hard crust on the top.
I also use cornstarch for my bannetons and the loafs just PLOP out , I have to be carefule to slow them down lol.
So the basic problem is condensation of moisture around the dough in the fridge. ...and trapping that moisture creates problems.
I knew there was a reason why I instinctively don't like my glass refrigerator shelves. :)
Mine has glass shelves and recently I noticed a buildup of water afterwards and realized this has to be the issue. I've had no problems since. Now I have to re teach myself to flour the bowl lightly.
My refrigerator has glass shelves also. Maybe I use more of the AP/Rice flour to dust my bannetons? I use unlined cane brotformen, cotton-lined brotformen and linen-lined bannetons. The last are the least sticky but none are problems. Well, I have had some very wet, high-rye dough stick a couple times.
And I always put the bannetons/brotformen in closed plastic bags while retarding. Water does condense on the bags above the loaves but not on the loaves or the bannetons. I wonder what the difference is.
David
Maybe it's because you bake with more traditional formulas for the most part, which are not heavily hydrated. Another thing to note is you are quite skilled at gluten development and shaping which further remove the sticky nature of dough. That is until you are highly hydrated.
Many folks having this issue I find are using the Tartine formula which even when properly developed is quite slack and sticky. I've honestly not had too many issues of lost dough due to sticking but I did notice the wet bowl bottoms ( actually the tops of the loaves ) and it bothered me. This also required excessive flouring of the bowls. I am not a fan of floury crusts. This has alleviated that significantly.
Or again maybe the gods are just watching out for you
Josh
I think they have more entertaining stuff to watch these days, or, for the more safety-minded among them, they should be watching out for idiot drivers!
Your comment regarding gluten development is more to the point. I bake quite a few high-hydration breads, but I go way beyond the Stretch and Fold recommendations of Chad Robertson and Ken Forkish. With each S&F episode, I continue it until the dough elasticity is such that further S&F'ing will tear it. So, rather than a 4 corners fold over, I might do 10-20 S&F's in the container, every 30 minutes X 4. A longer autolyse (60-120 minutes) can help, too.
Right now, I have a batch of SJSD dough bulk fermenting. Its about 75% hydration. I did an autolyse of about 70 minutes, while my wife and I took a long morning walk in the neighborhood. By time I had folded in the salt, the dough was nice and smooth and shiny. It had enough strength, but, obviously, needed to ferment a lot longer. I am doing my S&F's, as described above, until the dough has expanded by 1/3 to 1/2 and has lots of little bubbles in it, then I will cold retard.
Now, the SJSD gets proofed on a linen couche, without any flouring at all. And it never sticks to the couch. Sometimes there is a little bit of sticking to the (also unfloured) transfer peel, but not usually. I do think this has to do with gluten development and with shaping and with the magical properties of bakers' linen. I, on the other hand, do not pretend to any magical qualities or divine favor, just lots of reflective practice.
David
So, are you cold retarding before shaping?
I've never needed a drop of flour on a couche (or transfer peel for that matter) - unless I put the thing in the fridge to retard after shaping. Then I get enough sticking to the couche so that I really don't like it. I can use gravity to coax the loaves off the couche, but it isn't efficient and that bugs me.
As you may recall, I've used a similar development technique to yours - so I don't really think that's the difference. I also think my shaping is fairly acceptable. But put the shaped loaves in the fridge and all bets are off.
I have the same issue with, say, pretzels, that need to be shaped and then refrigerated. They will cling to parchment paper like Tiberian bats. I can overcome this by putting them on plastic wrap, but I can't do that with other loaves.
Just wondering.
Pat
I cold retard the San Joaquin SD in bulk. Most other breads I retard, and that is most of the non-rye breads I bake, I retard shaped. With the linen-lined bannetons, I usually have no sticking, even with 75% hydration doughs. With the un-lined brotformen, I sometimes have to hold them upside down over the peel for maybe 20 seconds or so for the loaf to drop. Sometimes a couple knocks with a fist on the bottom helps. Patience is required. Trust in The Force, i.e., gravity. No dough is left sticking to the banneton, except once or twice with over-proofed 80% rye.
Hmmmm .... maybe you are too far from the center of the Earth way up there in Colorado. ;-)
David
Hmmm. I know that gravity will dislodge most breads from couche/basket, no problem, I can be patient if "Forced" to be.
But it does niggle. When I feel any dough that has been refrigerated at any point, I feel extra moisture - not like moisture in the dough, but like condensation - it is wetter coming out of the refrigerator than when it went in. I have this issue with croissants during the laminating process (and actually, since I normally refrigerate croissants overnight before baking, I feel it on the croissants - the long proof and the general mechanics of how shaped croissants are refrigerated makes it less important, but it is there). It doesn't cause damage, but the dough gets moist. This is moderate hydration stuff and yet I can feel the water. Our dew point is pretty low around here. One ponders if something else is coming in to play.
Ah well, it's baking season again and I have the chance to play around with some things.
Thanks.
Pat
I know zip ... well, maybe zilch ... about refrigerators, other than their desired temperature, but I wonder if they vary in dehumidification. Could that account for why some do and others do not have a problem with condensed water on retarding dough?
David
I did kind of consider that. I have a "thingy" (that's a technical term) that manages humidity in my crisper drawers so maybe. Time to read the user manual!
I was also thinking about the differences between room temperature and our very low dew point. But that made my head hurt.
Got some things to consider.
Pat
Yes I imagine different fridges run with different exhausting and humidity ranges. Plus the load that is in your fridge or shall i say how full or empty your fridge is has an impact on it's performance as well.
teasing about the help of the gods.
The SJSD is cold bulk and then final proofed for a short while at room temp if I remember correctly. As long as the shape is rolled in flour as I mentioned to Proth above that would explain for no sticking to couche. How in the world you can load them on an unfloured peel is beyond me. I either use semolina which I like on my crust or I bake on a piece of parchment for the start. It is re-usable quite a few times and makes for a very easy and risk free loading of which I need to do twice each time. Makes it much faster for me. I just remove the parchment when rotating the loaves.
Lately I've been tinkering with 3-4 hour autolyse, a shorter hand mix (10 minutes - 5 to incorporate levain then 5 more to incorporate salt and held back h20) Then I do all my folds in the first hour of bulk every 20 minutes. I've had some good success with this of late.
Cheers
Most of the time, I use a SuperPeel. So, it has a canvas surface. If the bottom of the loaves seem sticky, I dust them with semolina (polenta for rye breads) before flipping them onto the peel. I almost never have to do that with the flipping board. I only use it with loaves proofed on a linen couche, and the linen dries out the loaf surface just enough to (almost always) eliminate stickiness. Another of linen's "magic tricks."
David
I didn't know this of the Super Peel. That must be why it's called such.
towel, linen, plastic, other?
i've battled sticking a bit, particularly when the hydration gets cranked way up...of course more flour and rice flour help, but it is these little additional moves that I think can make the difference between frustration and fabulous
I put my bowls in 2 gallon ziplock freezer bags not completely sealed. I actually am thinking of an alternate to this as well. I've just loosely covered the loaves with towels are a plastic bag but I get skinning over when I do so. The plastic bags make sure the dough doesn't dry out but some times overly so. After setting all in the fridge in place I pull the bag up off the exposed dough making a dome above, sort of.
I'm thinking of just setting up a box that fits on my shelves that I can line with plastic if necessary so i can skip the plastic bags. I've also considered buying some cheap shower caps to see how that would work. But I haven't made any moves on this project quite yet.
Josh
Hey Josh
I don't ever recall having massive issues with dough sticking at home ... Usually single loaves would go in plastic bags or a tray of bannetons would get covered in plastic. I used rice and wheat flour in just crappy cotton tea towels most of the time.
I think I need a photo to understand what you have rigged up.
Phil
When i first started using the home fridge. Particularly with higher hydrations . Like the Grain de Lin (Oger) in my case. I ended up having to use so much flour to keep it from sticking to the bowls. After inspection I realized the glass would be pretty wet after I was done baking.
At the art store they sell poster board. It's about 1/4" thick or so and has smooth surface but in between the smooth layers is what seems to be styrofoam. I was able to cut them to fit which worked better than my cooling racks which don't cover the entire shelf. This has resolved the issue to the degree that I have to ease off of flouring my bowls. I'm sure just plain old cardboard would do or even a kitchen towel. A good buffer between the warm dough and the cold glass.
I just thought I'd share a home baking trick that helped me out. I'm sure different fridges run differently. So some of us have more issues than others.
Or it's those gods I spoke of earlier
Josh
If I'm following...you put your proofing bowls in ziploc bags...but if they are in bags, I don't see how getting them up off the glass shelves help prevent condensation on the bottom (as per your original post)
They are just plastic covers and even in the bags they are still sitting right on the cold surface. Removing the warmth of the bowl from direct contact with the glass shelve has seemed to alleviate the heavy condensation. I don't seal the bags closed, I leave them partially open so they can breathe. I used to just put the bowls directly in and covered with a bag but I had issues with skin forming and still the bottoms would be wet from sitting on the glass. That's when I switched to bags. Sealing the bags created too much moisture on top so now I just tuck the open ends down without using the ziplock..
I do want to create a better system than these bags as well but that'll be the next thing to improve. I'm gonna try finding the perfect size cardboard box to just throw right in on each shelve and see how that goes Maybe lined or covered with plastic to some degree if I find the loaves skinning over this way. I'll start working on this pretty soon and when I find good results I'll post it.
Josh
I never had a problem with shaped bread retarded in the refrigerator. Originally I sprayed my unlined cane bannetons very lightly with oil; from then on I just dust generously, but not excessively, with millet flour. My covers are simple plastic bowl covers, and the bannetons are just sitting on the refrigerator shelf (the lower part of the baskets are exposed to the cold air). By the time I take them out for baking (usually overnight), the plastic has condensation on it inside but not the dough (I pull the plastic covers right up so they don't get a chance to touch the shaped breads).
No problem with dipping them out. Actually, I have to watch where they drop onto the baking paper because it happens so quickly. No dry crusts or sweating.