It looks gorgeous!

I shouldn't be looking on here when I haven't had lunch yet!

Mariana, they look absolutely fantastic - I can hear them calling out to me...make me, bake me! Can I refuse? No...but first a few questions of course.

- when making the refresher culture and sponge, it is mixed until the smooth dough stage. Does that mean windowpane, or not quite? In the dough are we looking for a windowpane?

- when making the refresher culture and sponge, why is it ok to go on to the next step when it only reaches 3.5 times it's volume rather than waiting for it to reach it's full size?

- according to the time schedule above I think I'll have to split it up into 2 days so I imagine I'll put it in the fridge sometime after the sponge is made. How far do you think it should rise before I put it in the fridge? or could I make the sponge and put it in right away, and the next day let it finish rising out of the fridge before starting on the dough?

Sorry for all the questions...

L_M

Thanks, KipperCat. I must confess that I have two rules: never shop when hungry and never come to this site when hungry, LOL. How are you doing? What's baking?

L_M, thank you. I am amazed at their looks as well. It's my first time I tried a formula from a professional baking book without 33 pages of commentaries accompanying them, LOL. I feel like I graduated or something.

I must admit, once again, that you come up with brilliant questions, L_M. Gosh, you are good!

1) Just mix for 10 min, knead by hand for 10 min using kaiser petal method, if you don't use machines. It aerates the sponge (gives yeast oxygen they crave) and mixes the sponge until smooth. Here, smooth means just plain smooth - a mass of moist dough without spots of dry flour in it. 

In sponges and bigas, preferments that have dough-like consistency, it is never about windowpaning. We don't develop gluten in them at all. I.e. it is not our goal to develop gluten in a sponge or biga.

2) Answer to your question is about 'why use pre-ferments at all'. What is their purpose? Believe it or not, but their purpose is to develop dough's acidity!!! 

We don't use refreshers and sponges because we want to multiply the number of the yeast cells in them. Nope. If we wanted more yeast cells, we would just thow in more baker's yeast. We use preferments to increase production of lactic and acetic acid, and other minor acids in the final dough.

Why do we want those acids? Because acids chemically condition gluten in bread, make it stronger. Because acids improve shelf life of baked goods. Because acids improve bread flavor, both its taste and its aroma.

So. in yeasted pre-ferments, we MUST let pre-ferments mature, or else, there will be no desired acidity.

In sourdough pre-ferments, we already have lactic bacteria working full time, so acid is much less of a concern. Here, we use sponges to dilute acidity of storage culture and at the same time make the most fragrant bread ever.

I waited until pre-ferments tripled and then proceeded to the next step, because I was working with sourdough culture and I wanted mild sourdough bread, French mild. Tripling in less than 5 hours is a comprobation of the leavening power of the sponge/culture. It was enough for me.  i.e. the culture was proving itself as vigorous and I didn't want to let it fully mature (rise and start falling) for a huge sourdough flavor. For really sour sourdough, I would bake a San-Fran sourdough loaf or a German sourdough loaf, not a French pain au levain.

3) question about refrigerating sponge(s) is an excellent one, L_M. A++ question.

Sponges are never refrigerated. Never. Ever. Ever. Only final dough can be refrigerated, before or after shaping. Remember that sponges are about developing lactic bacteria, and acids that they are producing. Cold inhibits and kills lactic bacteria and stimulates yeast. You want lactic bacteria thriving in sponges (big flavor and gluten conditioning) and you want yeast thriving in the final dough (where volume is all you want, big volume, holey dough).

If you want to make a pre-ferment last longer until the next step, just use smaller amount of starter culture in it and 60F cold water. That's all you have in your toolbox for pre-ferment retardation.

Final bread dough can be refrigerated, for as long at it is immature, just mixed.

So, if you want to split the process, to work on it for 2 days, do sponges on the first day. Mix the final dough. Now you have 2 choices

1) refrigerate immediately. Tomorrow, warm it up. Divide, shape, proof, bake.

2) let it ferment for 1 hour. Shape loaves. Let them stay at room T for 1 -2 hours. Refrigerate to finish tomorrow.

OK?

I must mention that the recipe above gives 6 loaves 1.5 lb each (raw weight).  If you want a smaller batch, divide everything in half or in 1/3, or 1/4. OK?  Also, my starter is really fresh, young and very mildly acidic. Yours is a bit more aged and stronger flavored. I don't know if it will make a difference. After all, you like milder tasting breads, don't you?

best wishes,

mariana

Mariana I must say that you have such a wonderful way of explaining so clearly many  parts of this whole process that have confused me for a very long time. Thank you so much. My questions all come up because things don't work out for some reason or other like the recipe says it should, and even though I've read up on these subjects quite a bit, I find there are still some missing links - the ones I need to actually bring theory into practice, and sometimes to work them into the slightly unusual circumstances I have (i.e. heat, flour ). The most frustrating line I've read in some of these bread baking books is " the baker will know ...how/when/what to do". So many times I felt like yelling back at the book..." Help - this baker DOESN'T know what to do!!!"

Mariana with the 'toolbox' you suggested for pre-ferment retardation, along with the options for the dough, it seems easy enough to fit it all into everyday life. The only reason I wanted to split it into 2 days was that when adding up all the hours, it didn't seem possible to start in the morning and eat the bread for dinner.

You are right...mild breads are my goal. I will try to find a wide mouthed thermos like you suggested in another thread - it might be the easiest way for me to keep the starter at an even temp for now. I'd like to try starting a new one using the method in your blog, but I will wait for another month or so until the weather cools slightly, otherwise I'll be running into the same problems as I am with my current starter. Room temp without AC can easily be 30C for many hours during the day, and at night around 26C -27C. When do we put on the AC? When we're at home and just can't stand the heat any more... so that isn't a very reliable way to control the temp for a new starter!

I've got boule batch #4 proofing at the moment so I"ll post the results later on in the other thread.

Thank you again -I really appreciate all of your help.

L_M

Simply gorgeous! Thanks for your write-ups!!!

Mariana, what is the one book you would recommend (in English), that would be most helpful in learning this bread style? I take it that you make the 6 loaves when you bake this bread. Are you able to get two in at a time in a home oven?

The next time you bake this bread, it would be very helpful if you would post some  photo's of the proofing process. I'm curious to see how much dough you have in the basket and how large it is when you put it in the oven. I have a limited supply of coiled baskets so I usually do free form for large batches or a cloche for batards. The coiled baskets I do have are for a2# loaf I believe and I also have some from sfbi that are linen covered I haven't had much luck with. Now I'm wondering if a 1.5 lb loaf would fit in my 2# basket, fully risen to 3-1/2 times volume.

Thank you Mariana,

Eric

Thank you, Blue Zebra. I like your latest photo in your blog. You look so pretty, colorful. I also love your pink gums and white teeth! : )

Eric, Calvel's book The Taste of Bread is a must have. After you work through it, consider yourself a Baker. It's the most complete and useful bread book ever. I received a series of films with Calvel, where he explains how to bake bread, including sourdoughs pictured above, today from Bread Baker's Guild of America. They are in VHS format. Thank God, I didn't get rid of our VCR yet, although we haven't used it in years. I will convert the movies into DVDs and can send them to you to watch, if you wish. When I see how this old baker touches bread dough, I want to be that dough, LOL. He is so gentle and skilled, amazing.

In the movies you will see how bread should look like and how stretchy and supple it is when it is well mixed and how it is shaped and proofed, etc. How the best baguettes, and rustic loaves, and sourdoughs, and tinned breads are handled and baked, etc. There are things in Calvel's book that I have never read anyplace else, useful knowledge, and I have several dozens of books on bread making in my library and dozens of dvds illustrating different aspects of this craft. Once you learn to bake breads as taught by Calvel, the core, the staple breads, everything else if fantasy breads, artsy stuff from other authours and bakers.

Bannetons are a serious issue, Eric. This particular bread is better proofed in bannetons. I used 7,5" round and 6+10" oblong bannetons, coiled as you call them, dusted with mixture of bread and rice flour. I find that mix doesn't become as soupy and the excess is easily brushed off when I take loaves out to bake.  A 600g piece of dough looks rather small inside initially, but then it rises as it proofs and fills the baskets completely and forms a dome above its edged.

A have two rather large baking stones from Fibrament and a roomy LG oven (over 5cu. ft, I think), so I was able to bake them all six loaves at once. Now I want to go and buy 6 bricks to try 700F temperature in a preheated oven and see how it affects oven spring. People say it's amazing.  I know it should be. I learned form qahtan on this website to use inverted flower pots for round loaves to imitate brick oven conditions, and oven spring is indeed breathtaking, like nothing you will ever achieve in a simple oven. These sourdough loaves are not large and they go up, instead of sideways, in the oven, so even on a medium sized baker's stone you should be able to accomodate 3-4 at once.

Of course a 1,5lb loaf would fit in a 2# basket. Of course. They expand very well inside and dome above  the basket, but will not hang on the sides like love handles, lol. A strong dough doesn't do that to you.

best wishes,

mariana

Browndog, yes. Fresh butter and orange marmelade. Every morning on my fresh bread : )  I am still working on those muffins. My Elizabeth David's book is in Newfoundland, while I am in Ontario now. So I purchased another copy online yesterday, the one that has this funny looking piece of dough on the cover. Once it arrives, I will bake them muffins and will be relieved of green envy I feel now when I look at your muffins.

I can't really write a promotional piece for LG products. I got mine without research. I remember I went for a walk a few weeks ago and saw something in a store window that caught my attention. It was a new line of LG appriances, brightly colored and elegant looking. When I heard their motto "Life is Good" and saw the color of the oven inside, a unique bright indigo blue, I was no longer thinking rationally.  I bought it right away.

Now, I could'nt be happier. It's a very pretty range/oven. And it's my best friend now. It cooks and bakes like a charm, extremely reliable, oven reaches 600F easily when convection bake feature is on, so we enjoy great hearth breads and pizzas. And with convection roast feature, our roasts now are something else. You can read about LG ranges and ovens online of course. All I can say, I am totally in love with mine and I LIKE IT.

For bread baking, I found that it has a huge, very well sealed oven which holds steam, when I inject it, and produces tremendous crusts on my loaves. Browning is very even, with or without convection, so I never have to rotate my loaves and cookie sheets. There are 3 stainless steel racks and 9 levels to set them up, I think, or maybe more. So this feature allows me to bake everything on 2 - 3 stones, if necessary, lightning quick. It's important when I cook something like individual pizzas for a crowd.

Mariana, what a totally cool interior color! I would love to replace my stove and that looks like a great choice. Nice to get a first hand recommendation, A

AnnieT

Sorry, guess I had already posted. Yet another senior moment, A

Hi Annie, I have more senior moments than I care to admit. I just use Edit button : ) 

Browndog, I am happy for your choice! I think now we can afford to own not just useful things, but beautiful too, can't we? 

I have ordered Good Omens from the library, and meanwhile I am reading Brautigan. If Pratchett doesn't come soon, I will purchase a copy in a neighbourhood bookstore. My husband likes that kind of reading too. It takes very little to make us laugh, so Pratchett will have us laughing for hours non-stop. Elizabeth David's book on English breads was the first book on bread baking I read ever. It was long time ago. I like her recipies and narrative style.

I am a little tired of sourdough baking, browndog, so I want my muffins simply yeasted with a fresh cake of contemporary yeast .  Of course, a piece of sourdough will find its way in, but not as a primary agent of rising muffins: ). Today, I baked cuban breads with yeast, pan cubano and midnight bread, and the process feels so much easier, breads behave great and cooperate as I worked with them. I dunno, sometimes sourdough baking feels like speaking foreign language to me; a bit strained and difficult to express myself fully. I guess there is time and place for both kinds of leavens.

Richard Brautigan, really? Gosh, I haven't thought of him in years, but in my distant past college days I read him. He seemed exotic and other-wordly to a timid little mid-western girl. I wonder how I would find him now? Or do you mean some other Brautigan?

English Bread was my first 'serious' baking book, and it taught me to think much differently about bread. I still cherish it.

Oh, tired of sourdough! Goodness. Well, I really do understand. My interest increased with the warmth of the weather. If I have to struggle to keep warm dough in my cold house come November, it may become a seasonal occupation. My own experience, not backed by your extensive knowledge, is inconsistent and unpredictable. But when it works it's wonderful.

Midnight bread? A dark rye?

Mariana:  Do you use the convection bake setting when baking bread? At first, I was wary of using convection as I thought it might dry the bread out too much.  Then I experimented recently with using regular bake during the first steaming part of the bake, and then switching to convection for the last half.  It worked out well, and I thought the crust may have come out a little crisper.  Was wondering if and when you use the convection setting for bread.  I agree with you completely that for roasting convection is absolutely wonderful.

Am in the midst of trying your formula for Calvel's bread (near the end of refreshing the culture).  Since I just realized that I have been seriously underkneading my dough, I am curious about the effect of the 10 minute mixing on the culture and the sponge.  I got started later than I intended (some drop in visitors), so I may be needing some of your 'midnight bread'!

 I've tried reading Calvel's book and must admit I have found it tedious.  Perhaps it's a poor translation or perhaps it's not for the novice baker.  I shall give it another try.

Thanks,

Liz

Hi Liz,

Yes I use convection bake setting all the time. When I bake enriched dough, it’s on all the time. When I bake lean bread , and use steaming technique for thin and glossy singing crust, I begin baking on regular bake setting for the first 15 min, then briefly open the door, close it, and switch to convection bake to finish crust formation.

Convection bake doesn’t dry the bread too much. Not at all! If your oven is a self-cleaning oven, like ours, it is well sealed and doesn’t let moisture to escape, unless you keep your oven door open a little all the time or open it way too frequently while baking. 

I use convection bake setting for bread

-         when I bake on 3 racks simultaneously,  or when I bake on one rack, but breads of different sizes and heights simultaneously (convection eliminates the need for rearranging and rotating and all that mess)

-         when I bake pizzas and want to preheat the stone(s) to 600F,  convection feature allows me to reach T that high

-         when I bake enriched breads at low to moderate temperatures, about 325-370F.   When oven is on regular bake setting, its temperature fluctuates up to 50F which can be undesirable, frankly speaking. When oven is in convection bake mode, its temperature fluctuates much less, about 10-15F, very steady oven. I adore that feature.

10 min of mixing on low speed does little to the refresher and to the sponge. It just mixes until smooth stage. Basically it's a 10 min long fraisage. It doesn’t develop gluten. Long rise does that.  Now, after long rise I don’t want to over mix the sponge, so I incorporate it very late, when the final dough is nearly ready. To know when to place your sponge into your mixer, so that it joins the final dough, run mixer efficiency test of your mixer, like Cook’s Illustrated did

 Quote from CI, Standing Mixers, 11/2005 For a measure of a mixer's efficiency, I devised a test. Mixing 4 cups of pizza dough in a bowl, I added 10 drops of yellow food coloring to one side of the dough and 10 drops of blue to the other. How long would each mixer take to knead the dough completely to a uniform green color--with no individual specks of yellow or blue?

Incorporation times varied significantly. The slowest mixer had gone from speckled blue and yellow to a uniform green in just over 11 minutes. The quickest? A speedy 3:45. From fastest to slowest: KitchenAid Professional 600 (3:45), Bosch Universal (4:45), DeLonghi 7 (5:03), Hobart (5:30), Viking 5 (5:30), DeLonghi 5 (5:33), Hamilton Beach (5:39), Viking 7 (6:30), KitchenAid Artisan (7:20), KitchenAid Accolade (7:42), KitchenAid Classic (8:52), and Electrolux (11:15).  

So, my KA thoroughly incorporates sponge into the final dough in 3.5 min. Therefore, I wait until there are 4-5 min left to finish kneading bread dough and drop my sponge into the mixing bowl, to join the happy dance : ) 

Calvel’s book is hardly entertaining, Liz, I agree. It is not meant to be read, but to be memorized, as a textbook. Very informative, very. I struggle with it 1 chapter per month. One recipe at a time and reading around it, to let practical concerns help me with learning.

Here’s midnight bread recipe for you, if you ever feel adventurous enough to give it a try

http://mariana-aga.livejournal.com/3416.html

Mariana:  Thank you for your suggestions on how to use convection for baking bread.  My oven does retain heat exceptionally well so I will give your recommendations a try.

I also appreciate your comments on mixing/kneading.  The sponge is now fermenting on the Calvel recipe you posted above and the 10 minute mixing did mix the levain and the sponge really well, much more than I typically do at that point.  Also was interested in the mixing time data you quoted from Cook's Illustrated. I have both a KA 600 and the Electrolux DLX. I use the DLX for bread (particularly when using large quantities of flour).  This confirms how much longer it takes to mix with the DLX (between 3 and 4X longer).

My Calvel loaves will have to retard overnight in the refrigerator after fermentation. I am intrigued by Calvel's method as so many aspects of the formula are unfamiliar to me (longer mixing time, shorter fermention, shorter kneading time after adding sponge, and longer proof).

I won't give up on Le Professeur...

Thanks,
Liz

Here's my attempt at the Calvel loaves for which Mariana so graciously posted such detailed instructions.  Despite a few 'operator errors' (added the rye flour with the wheat flour during the first mix, an off schedule that forced me to retard the dough after bulk fermentation, and some slight overproofing), I must say this is absolutely delicious bread, and this coming from someone who usually appreciates bread with more whole grains.  The flavors are wonderfully balanced, the holes in the crumb are not large, but well spaced, and the texture is moist and chewy.  The crust is very crispy and crackled when cooling.  A wonderful blend of flavors!

Next time I will plan my time better so the process isn't such an ordeal. I will also cut the formula in half, as Mariana suggests.  At least I shall be popular with the neighbors and my co-workers!  Thanks, Mariana.

Liz

Wow, Liz, wonderful loaves, wonderful. I was waiting for your results all day long, And heare you are. Gread breads.

This recipe is indeed a bit long and multistep. Calvel shows a similar bread but with only one sponge, not two in his video about sourdough. And it's really fast: after mixing, 80min  1st fermentation and 2,5 hrs proof and you are ready to bake.  I'll go now and post an image and brief formula for you. OK?

Congratulations with your first French sourdough, Liz.  Thank you for sharing your bread with us!

mariana

Thank you, Mariana!  The taste was truly wonderful -- nutty, wheaty, with just enough bite. Lots of after flavors. Really, kind of a multi-level of flavors like a good wine.  And, even though they were a bit overproofed, there was great oven spring from the Cloche. The crumb also had that sheen (gelatinization?) that I associate with good bread. 

The most intriguing part is Calvel's methods:  long mixing times for the levain and sponge, shorter knead time post addition of  levain,  short bulk fermentation, and very long proof.

As I said, I usually favor breads with more whole grains, but this one really won me over.  It's worth the effort.  I will cut down on the quantity  next time as it was alot of dough to handle.

I look forward to seeing the next Calvel formula.  It will have to work hard to compete on taste.

Liz

Hi Mariana,

I'm getting ready to jump back into baking with my starter since it now seems to be in good condition. So, here's the dilema... which one of your breads am I going to start with? Your blog is filled with fantastic pictures and information but you've made them and tasted them, so please help me out here :

- I'd like to start with the very mildest tasting bread, without any additional commercial yeast.

- Thin and delicately crisp crust.

- Light weigh and moderately fine crumb.

- If it's possible to stay reasonably within a schedule, then I want to bake sometime between 3pm - 5:30pm.

- We can't count on me waking up in the middle of the night...but I can easily stay up til midnight, and report for kitchen duty between 8:30 - 9:00 in the morning.

- I'd like to make about 800 gm - 900 gm of dough for now.

- My perfect spot for the starter keeps it at 24C -26C and there is room for a 2 cup pyrex measuring cup. The room temp during the night is about 26C - 27C.

 You can be sure I'm not giving up on sourdough yet, but I still have to find a recipe that is workable for me and that we like. Do you think you have something up your sleeve that will fit in to most of those guidelines?

L_M

Hi L_M,

I am so happy to hear that you are back to sourdough baking! good for you!

Start with this very recipe, for which I gave photos above. Just make 1/4 of the batch, which will make 945g of dough. Or make 1/2 batch and bake it on two separate days to have hot bread for dinner.

http://mariana-aga.livejournal.com/1122.html

The schedule will be very convenient for you, and the bread(s) will be ready exactly at 5:30PM.

Night before: refresh the culture. You can do it as late as midnight.

8AM: mix the sponge

Noon: Mix the dough, give it 30 min autolysis.

12:30PM. Knead for 12 min on medium speed (6+6). Divide and round.

40-50 min bulk fermentation at room temperature.

1:30 PM shape the loaves. Proof for 3-3:5hours. Slash and brush with water.

4:30-5PM. Bake for 30-45 min depending on the size of the loaf or loaves. Bake under stainless steel mixing bowl during the first 20 min of baking to achieve spectacular oven spring and great crust (thin and crackly).

OK?

Mariana

Hi Mariana,

Thanks for suggesting which one to start with.

 I'm getting ready, so just to make sure...you say to leave the refreshed culture for a full 8 hours even though the recipe says 5 -6 hrs, and you left it for only 3? No reduced amount of starter or salt?

Next, the only rye flour available here is whole rye, so should I stay with the same amount as written?

The bread flour has 6 mg Vit C per 100 gm flour - should I add anymore?

Last question for now...you mentioned a stainless steel mixing bowl for covering in the oven, and I don't have one - would pyrex be ok? if not, how about a stainless steel pot with handles that can withstand the heat? Or if you think it really makes a difference I can easily buy one.

Getting excited....will this recipe be THE recipe for me????

L_M

Good morning, L_M!

I modified the schedule for you, as to avoid refrigeration and gray tone of the crumb, and account for the peculiarities of your starter. My starter quadruples very quickly, I made it using Calvel's instructions (the 2.5 days method). So I was able to do it 3h+3h in the preferment section of the schedule. A small amount of very ripe refreshed culture will not spoil your bread, for as long as the sponge is good.

 I suggest you do the full amount of refresher (as in original recipe, above), but only use 1/4th of it to mix the sponge (if you intend to mix just 1/4th of the dough recipe). Late in the evening of the baking day (next day), refresh the chef, it will be 24 hours old by that time, just like your starter likes it, to get ready for the next day's baking. OK?

If you have only whole rye flour, either sift it, to take coarse parts and bran out, or omit it from the dough (still add to the sponge, to feed the bugs). It is introduced to improve the fermentation and keeping qualities of the bread, but you intend to bake fresh every day, don't you? Remember that even after sifting whole rye will still contribute to the grayish color of the crumb. Some people don't mind it, but if you want really white crumb, use light rye.

If your bread flour already has vitamin C added to it, there is no need to add any more. It will not add anythig to the taste, since vitamin C is destroyed by heat, and you don't want your dough to be too strong.

Sure, you can use pyrex, although I would be careful (afraid of breakage). I heard people say that old Pyrex was made from really good glass, and modern Pyrex is not as heat resistant and is vulnerable to downshock.

 http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/03/pyrex_panic.html

Susan, a member of this community, succesfully bakes under pyrex bowl

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2398/question-about-baking-pot-and-steam#comment-9907

Stainless steel pot with metallic handles is good, for as long as it lays completely flat on the surface (doesn't let steam escape) and you don't mind polishing it after using for baking, or just dedicate it for baking bread.

This bread is incredibly good. I hope you will like it.

mariana

Hi Mariana,

I'm familiar with the grey colour from rye flour and it doesn't bother me at all. In fact my bread is never white, even if I've only used AP or bread flour - the crumb is always sort of sandy coloured. So if a little rye in the dough will keep the bread fresher for longer, all the better. I don't bake everyday - otherwise I wouldn't get anything else done :-) For the first time round I'll try it with the rye only in the sponge and not in the dough.

About the schedule...how do you manage it? If your preferments each take 3 hours, do you start very early in the morning in order for the bread to be ready for supper?

If I understood you correctly then you are suggesting I keep refreshing the culture every 24 hrs in the ratio that the recipe suggests, (52 gm starter : 40 gm water :67 gm flour ) in order for it to be ready for the next day's baking, but only using what I need in the sponge for the specific amount of dough I'll be making that day. Yes? If so, it does sound like it would be a convenient routine, but I'm wondering if my starter would last that long on so little food. My current feeding ratio is 10 gm starter: 30 gm water: 50 gm flour , every 24 -26 hours. Any thoughts on this?

I'm really looking forward to the first bite already!!!  

L_M 

Hi SD baker,

I like reading your posts, can you imagine? LOL. Thanks.

I documented creating Calvel's starters in my blog. You can read those entries if you wish. One is made of rye and wheat flours. Another - from whole wheat kernels and wheat flour. Both took me 2.5days to be fully functional starters (quadrupling in volume in less than 5 hours and proper acidity level).

Here they are

starter #1: mixture of dark rye and bread flour

http://mariana-aga.livejournal.com/3748.html

starter #2: mixture of soaked wheat berries and bread flour

http://mariana-aga.livejournal.com/4757.html

Starter#2 is very convenient, because feedings are farther apart and you are still done by 2.5 days mark!

Make sure to knead your starter when you make it as if it was bread dough - fairly thoroughly. Remember that yeast likes oxygen, kneading helps trap oxygen inside sourdough mass.

good luck!

mariana

L_M, even if you don't bake daily, do that: refresh as Calvel suggests. OK?

For example,

tonight, refresh your sourdough culture as in the recipe above

tomorrow morning: prepare a sponge, dough, bread

tomorrow evening

1) if you won't bake the next day (the day after tomorrow), then refresh 10:30:50, as you feel you like to do it

2) if you will bake tomorrow, then refresh as Calvel instructs us to do it. OK?

Not to confuse the matters, but don't keep a line of starters, refreshed on their own. I always use a piece of sponge, once it is ripe (prior to mixing it into dough), to keep as a chef (mother dough, storage culture). 

That's more traditional in baking. By then, culture is thoroughly refreshed twice (in culture refresher and in sponge) and its microflora is really well balanced and acidity brought down, so it is vibrant, alive and healthy.

mariana

Mariana, you are so terrific - I really mean that! Now everything is clear, simple, reasonable, and workable. Thank you sooo much. I will still keep a separate one using my regular feeding routine as a back up for a little while until I become comfortable with this new rythum, since I just might forget to save some of the sponge. I do have a storage starter stuffed away in the fridge though, and as soon as the temp cools off a tiny bit more during the day I'll try starting up a new one like you suggested to SD baker above. 

Almost ready to begin....

L_M

Hi Mariana,

The boules are proofing right now, so in the meantime I'll give you a run down on how things went so far. First of all I want you to know that I devoted my day entirely to this dough - no distractions whatsoever, full focus. I figured that's the only way to learn.

So, I printed out your instructions and tucked them under my pillow at night :-)

Amost everything went perfectly according to your timetable. The sponge even tripled its volume in 3 hours. I was very pleased.

When it came time for the autolyse I knew I was going to have trouble keeping the dough cool enough during the kneading, so I started with ice cold water and flour cold from the fridge. During the autolyse the dough rested in the fridge. So far so good, but soon after the kneading started I could see it was warming to quickly. I know the problem is the room temp, and it's not the mixer's fault because in the winter everything is fine. Anyhow I had to put the dough in the freezer for a few minutes, quite a few times during the kneading, and still it wasn't coming together properly. The dough was sticky and far from anything like a window pane. Finally I realized I was loosing the battle, so I just let it knead and knead as it got hotter and hotter. This whole process took 1 /12 HOURS!!!!! but in the end the dough was ready, and interestingly enough it even started to cool off. The highest was 94F and it ended at 92F. I was totally exhausted, and ready for a nervous breakdown.... believe me, I'm usually very calm and patient.

It was then 2:00 so I quickly divided rounded and shaped all within 20 min. so that means I completely left out the bulk fermentation. I hope that was the correct thing to do under those circumstances. After all of that I forgot to leave a little piece of dough for checking how much it is rising, so I'll go by my 'jello test'.

Back to the kneading ... I don't want to go through that again, and this whole scenario has happen before, but I've never gone that far, so I was thinking of ways to avoid it in the future. So far I've only come up with 2 options so if anyone has ideas please let me know.

1 - Mix the autolyse part of the dough and put it in the fridge for several hours(sort of like Rose's sponge resting overnight in the fridge). I've found the dough temp stays much cooler that way during kneading, rather than having the cold water and cold flour seperate.

2 - Knead, knead, knead until it's ready, paying no attention to the temp since it seems to stop gaining heat and even cooling down a bit at some point.

 OK it's 6:00 and ready to bake. Preheated oven but no baking stone today - it'll be convection oven and baking under pyrex bowls. My oven isn't large so just figuring out how to fit everything in wasn't easy.

So far the dough smells very good - no hint of sour at all.

Results later....

L_M 

Hi, L_M, can’t wait for your results! Keeping my fingers crossed.

You did well by letting your chilled dough autolyze in refrigerator, I would pat the slab of dough thin and place icepacks on top and bottom, to chill it further. And place ripe sponge in refrigerator, surrounded by ice packs as well, while it is waiting its turn to be mixed into the dough in the last 3-4 min of fast kneading.

Then, as you knead, use waterjacket, if you have KA mixer, filling it with ice and water. Next, do bulk fermentation in the fridge, dough surrounded by ice packs. Didier Rosada says that to make the most out of the fermentation process, use pre-ferments, small amounts of yeast , keep dough temperature around 24.4C (76F) after mixing , and use a mixing technique that will allow the dough to adequately ferment before dividing.

Proof is ok to do at [hot] room temp, it will not affect quality of the dough or your schedule.

Please, don’t worry too much about high temperatures. C’est la vie. I have traveled a lot and can tell you that in tropical countries breads, in old-fashioned bakeries, are made without sophisticated chilling tricks and taste just right, although they are supposed to be consumed on the same day, within hours. The pre-ferments are usually done overnight and in early hours of the day, just like you did, when air cools down a bit, to normal temperatures, and pre-ferments are responsible for flavor. That’s the important part. Just remember, when dough ferments at higher temperatures the balance of lactic to acetic acid in your dough will shift more toward lactic (less acetic, less ‘sourdough’).

Temperature during mixing is quite important, since hot dough mixed on high speed oxidizes quickly, dough becomes bleached, and bread taste deteriorates somewhat. You did right, by kneading your hot dough slower, with attempts to chill it in between. I am sorry this issue took you by surprise. Ouch!

Summarizing means of temperature control, step by step.

Place sponge in the fridge as soon as it has tripled in volume.

Place mixer bowl and hook in freezer. Use ice cold water and flour from freezer/refrigerator.

Autolyze a slab of dough in refrigerator, surrounded by ice packs for 30 min. Return mixer bowl and hook to freezer.

Knead for 6 min, using iced water in waterjacket if available, add salt, yeast(if using), rye flour and cold sponge. Finish mixing for 6 more minutes.

Place in refrigerator on ice and covered with ice packs for 50 min. Proceed with shaping and proofing at room temp.

OK?

Good luck!

Mariana.

Hi Mariana,

I'm very proud to report that you are a very, very good teacher!!! The taste was wonderful and the texture of the crumb was very good in spite of "the kneading episode". I took some pictures but it's been so long since I posted pictures here that I've forgotten how. Tomorrow morning I'll try to get my son to figure it out.

Next time I bake this I'll lower the oven temp a bit because there were some spots that ended up white and dry looking, and it was not flour. Lately, I've been reducing the oven temp slightly and this doesn't happen anymore. I found that baking at 215C in my oven gives me better results - maybe the bread is closer to the source of heat since my oven isn't very large. The oven was quite crowded with the 2 bowls and there really wasn't enough air flow around them so although the convection fan was on, the heat wasn't flowing properly and one of the boules is blonde. The crust wasn't crisp at all but had a pleasant chewiness.

Mariana your suggestions for temperature control are very helpful. I'm going to print it out so I can refer to it during each stage. The only one I won't be able to use is the waterjacket. My mixer is a Kenwood Chef and it dosen't have an attachment like that. I have tried using a gel filled icepack to place between the base (motor) and the bowl but I'm not sure it really made a difference. All of your other suggestions will now become part of my routine. Again, I can't thank you enough - you have been so kind and patient to go over again and again your wonderful explanations, time schedules, and suggestions.

I won't be baking tomorrow but maybe on Thurs.

There are a few more of Rose's recipes that are I think are exceptionally good so if you're in the mood for something new to try...just let me know

L_M 

Thank you for good news, L_M. I am so happy that you finally are able to bake good sourdough in your own kitchen. Hurrah! You see how much depends on a good recipe? I have never had a failure with Calvel's formulas, some other authors are very good as well, but it will take me years to try them all. To crisp the crust, turn off the oven heat and let the boules sit for 10 more minutes. This technique I learned from Reinhart, I think. You did remove Pyrex bowls after the first 20 min to finish formation of the crust, didn't you?

I will patiently wait for the pictures of your bread. I have no idea how to post them on this website either, unless we have them posted on some other website.  

Please, I am all ears, which other recipes I must absolutely try from Rose's book? I will bake on Thursday as well, my desem starter and white starter will be ready to be deployed by then. : )

Thank you so much for persisting and baking a good batch of sourdough. Awesome, L_M, wonderful!

mariana

 Pain au Levain - Calvelcrumb

Hi Mariana,

I hope the pictures come out ok. As you can see, the loaves are far from perfect but at least I'm now headed in the right direction.

It does look like a good recipe is top priority if one wants to succeed as you said, but finding and trusting a good author-baker that you can relate to can take quite a lot of time because of trial and error when you are just starting out. At least that's how it was for me.

Here are some recipes that I've found to be excellent :

Our all time all round favourite is Qahtan's oatmeal bread. Special thanks to Qahtan again :-)  It is an everyday sandwich bread and always gets raves from everyone. The recipe is posted somewhere on this site and hopefully someone will be able to point us in the right direction. I noticed that you also posted some fantastic looking oatmeal buns on your blog, so they might be hard to beat!

Back to Rose...The Rosemary Focaccia Sheet pg 205 is amazing. Please note that it is one of the breads mentioned in the corrections. I needed to add a few extra teaspoons of flour in the end because after 20 min of beating it still didn't come together. I also found that it wasn't necessary to use so much oil for spreading the dough - it left me with oily hands after picking up a baked piece of focaccia.

Next is the Ciabatta pg 355. So light and tender - somewhat like the pizza dough. Just very, very good. 

The last one I can think of right now is the Tyrolean Ten-Grain Torpedo pg 394. This is my husband's favourite bread. Here I've tinkered a bit : the grains are soaked in potato water, and I add 50gm -75gm of discarded starter to the dough and an additional 1/8 teasp salt.  It has a very light texture and the toasted sunflower seeds are sooo good.

So whenever you have time I'd love to hear what you think of them - just to make sure we have the same taste - I don't want to keep suggesting recipes of breads you don't like!

Tomorrow I'll be doing a re-run, this time using the 'keep the dough cool' methods. I'll try to improve from the last time.

About the crust - yes I did take off the bowls but I probably should have left them for a longer time uncovered  to crisp up, but at the time I was afraid they would get too hard.  

I'll let you know how it all goes

L_M 

Geez, you guys are such bread teases!  Here I'm thinking I'm going to get set up to make my basic sourdough this weekend, then I see photos like these, or read about crumb bum's miche, and now I don't know what to do!  Too many fabulous breads!

Sue 

Hi, L_M,

Good bread indeed! congratulations again.

The crust being pale and somewhat leathery, instead of three shades of orangy-reddish and crisp, reminds me of my first sourdough loaves with Italian culture from Sourdough International. They were pale. Like yours. Both in the outer crust and inside the grigne, where the dough opens up during oven spring. There was no way I could make them nice orangy brown. Higher temperatures would burn them, but not brown them!

I think after I washed the culture several times and then fed it well in medium large amounts, the issue of pale crust was solved. Try washing your culture for a day or two and switch to a slightly larger inoculation amount (larger than 10g) and larger batches (about 1 cup or 300g of chef) to get a decent starter. Pale crust is not something you should agree with. Something with sugar/protein metabolism in the dough is not right, so the caramelization and Maillard reactions haven't proceeded as they normally would in these particular loaves. 

 I like quahtan's baking. Everything she bakes looks so pretty and tasty, classy and just right. She is a wonderful baker, indeed. I haven't seen her oatmeal bread recipe yet. Dolores Casella's cracked oatmeal dough was so tasty, I could have eaten it raw. Just amazing. And the bread!!! I am head over heals in love with those little rolls that I baked from cracked-oatmeal dough. I would have to bake quahtan's loaves to see if they are superior. I will. I believe you that they are superb, already.

Thank you for the recommendation of new breads from Rose's book, L_M. I don't know what to do with the flatbreads (focaccia and ciabatta). I have never had them before at home and don't even know if I would be able to use them for sandwiches. Tyrolean torpedo is OK. I will bake it next week, if you don't mind. My desem starter finally begun smelling fruity, like deliciously ripe pears, so it would be good to use it in a fragrant multigrain loaf. For tomorrow, I will bake da crumb bum's miche with ripe desem leaven that I prepared today.

mariana

Mariana, I tackled this yesyerday, here are the results:

The dough was pleasant to handle and rose well but my crumb isn't as nice as yours, Liz's, and L_M's. I wonder if I under-proofed--I did not take your good advice and have a little control dough in a measuring cup. Next time...

You have some beauties there. Did you use a mixer or by hand. I don't think you use a mixer but not sure.                                                                               weavershouse

Good morning, browndog! These are very beautiful loaves, very. With crackling crust and everything. Congratulations! Is is tasty?

Your crumb doesn' t look underproofed. More like your hearth was not hot enough. In sourdough, the bubbles usually look elongated and oriented upwards, as raw dough touches the baking stone and gasses stream to the top. When holes are round and they are evenly distributed, to me it's a sign of cold oven and, maybe, special kneading and shaping technique.

That said, I want that bread! It looks so good, so tasty. You are a very good baker, my friend. I am very happy for you!

OK, gotta go back to the kitchen. I am struggling with Da Crumb Bum's miche today. At 75% hydration, it's a very soupy dough. I am at the end of my wits, trying to figure out how to bake a decent loaf out of that pool of dough in my proofing backet.

mariana

Mariana, how did the "pool of dough" turn out? Mine ended up in the community dumpster! I think I know where I went wrong after reading more of crumbum's hints and comments - my dough wasn't developed enough. Oh well, onward and upward, A

Anne, I was sure my loaf would join yours in the dumpster, but I managed to bake it into a decent loaf. A sparkling red crust and creamy and moist crumb, fragrant, fruity and tasty.

My main problem was hydration. Too high. I had to fold an insane number of times to make it hold a little shape. In the end it was sitll more extensible than elastic, so I baked it in a clay pot.

I was also afraid of too much sourness, but it turned out fine. Just enough of a sour to know that you eat a light rye sourdough, but mild enough for me and mine to like it.  I will continue to work on that bread. The idea is good and techniques are interesting, plus there is an ample space for modifications of the basic idea to different schedules and flour combinations. Da Crumb Bum is a genius.

Please, let me know when you will bake this bread another time. I would like to join you and try a pure wheat version, something like a 24 hour desem loaf. OK?

mariana

Hi Mariana, so happy to hear that you had success! Maybe one day I will have the knowledge to figure out how to cope with a ball of elastic. I tend to panic, and the clay pot might have saved the day. MiniOven will be cross with me but last night I started Eric Rusch's (Breadtopia) whole grain sourdough and it is in the refrigerator for 24 hours. The dough behaved well after an autolyse and one stretch and then some kneading. I like the idea of more grains and also it is a smaller loaf. I will definitely try CrumBum's recipe again - at my age I feel as though I need to try as many recipes as I can, even after MiniOven's gentle chiding. I also have to confess that some of the technical talk scares me silly - I have read and re-read the method of starting (making?) a desem starter but that's as far as it goes. So my breadmaking is an adventure, sometimes good, sometimes not so much, and my neighbors are always happy to receive a loaf no matter what I think of it. Thanks for your interest, A

Good evening Mariana,

Your miche ended up like the fattest pancake I've ever seen :-) I've never been able to transform a dough like that with just some folds - wow!

Here's how it went this time :

Today I used almost all of the tricks in our 'keep cool' bag, and probably one too many...

First of all I see that in my mixer even with the dough at the correct temp, it still takes longer than 12 min to knead - more like 16. Nearing the last few minutes of kneading I had to flatten the dough and put it the friidge for a rest so it wouldn't heat up more than 78F. Next time I think I should let it knead for 10 min then put it in the fridge, then add the rest of the ingredients and continue for 6 more min. Does that sound right to you? The dough was 78F at the end of kneading.

Then I divided, rounded and put it in the fridge, and that was a mistake. The dough cooled off to 71F by the end of fermentation. Maybe only 15 min in the fridge would have been enough, if at all.

Next I shaped, and proofed in oiled pyrex bowls ready for baking. I don't think it took that long for the dough to warm up to room temp, but the proof took 4 1/2 hours which seemed quite long and part of that time it was in the proof setting in my oven. I hope nothing else was wrong.

I preheated the oven to 215C . Slashed, sprinkled about 1 tablespoon of water on top of each boule, covered with a pyrex lid and baked for 20 min with the lid on, and then 25 min with the lid off. They rose to amazing heights in their bowls and even started bumping into the lids. Nearing the end I wanted to take them out of the bowls to finish up free standing, but...they were stuck, and the fight began...I heard them cracking ( the bread not the bowls) as I managed to free them so they did get a bit mashed. This time there was ample room in the oven because I baked right in the bowls. I probably could have raised the oven temp to a bit higher than 215C, but I do think the extra sprinkling of water in the bowl contributed to the larger size of the baked boules.

Since it was really late they only cooled for about 1 hour before I sliced - we were so hungry already! It was so much better than yesterdays batch. the crust was crisp, the crumb was lighter  - both in colour and weight, and the flavour was amazing.

The picture isn't that accurate, but the colour of the crust is golden brown and again a bit too light, but my bread has never had an orange hue.  The crumb is a bit too mushed because I cut it too soon so I didn't think a picture would be of any help.

Washing my starter would be guess work unless you can tell me exactly how much and when to feed etc. Also my perfect spot for optimal temp is not large so I'm not sure if there would be room for a larger amount. A 500ml measuring cup can fit in.

Focaccia - I agree this isn't your eveyday bread. I've made it on several occasions and I served it along with roasted vegetables, dips, salads etc. since it is good for sopping up...whatever.

Ciabatta - these makes nice sandwiches, instead of a roll shape. Many coffee shops here use ciabatta as the main option for sandwiches. They use all sorts of fillings - cheeses, roasted/fresh veg, salami etc. It's too bad but sometimes they squish and toast the living daylights out of them so they are as hard as rocks! Honestly I was so surprised how tender the ones I made were! Anyhow, if you are ever in the Mediteranean mood, they are both very good.

Tomorrow is Yom Kippur and even though we don't fast, I won't be baking bread. It will give me a chance to figure out what to bake next!

Happy baking in the meantime

L_M

Pain au Levain #2PS I can see that the picture didn't come out but I don't know why... I'll try to figure it out tomorrow

Pain au Levain #2Pain au Levain #2

pain au levain 2L_M

OK - finally got it posted ...

These are beautiful loaves, L_M. Well done! They look like a healthy batch of bread: crispy, fresh, proud to be seen and served. awesome!

10+6 kneading on medium speed sounds good if your flour can handle it and crumb doesn't become too regular in structure.  I don't see anything wrong with 71F inside the dough during bulk fermentation, except that you feel that it takes later too long to proof the loaves and you would have to bake them too late for dinner. Blisters on the crust due to refrigeration of the preshaped