The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Stick just-fed starter back into fridge to slow it down?

valereee's picture
valereee

Stick just-fed starter back into fridge to slow it down?

I'm leaving town for a month -- was wondering if sticking my just-fed starter immediately back into the fridge without letting it start to bubble first might prevent it from getting to starvation point?  On its last feeding it doubled in just under 2 hours.  

Thanks for any advice!

Val

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

If your starter is doubling in less than 2 hours, you may not be feeding it enough to begin with. What is your usual feeding ratio? I'd recommend feeding it enough that it would reach peak (may be more than double) in about 12 hours. My house is around 72F right now, and my starter takes a feeding of 1:3:3 for a 12-hour feeding. Even at that, it is peaking before 12 hours. Once you've established what a 12-hour feeding should be for your starter at room temperature, feed it that much, let it sit at room temp for about 30 minutes to an hour, then stick it in the fridge. If you're using any type of whole-grain flour in your starter, it will still turn to pudding and begin to starve before you get back, but it shouldn't be too bad. For better staying power, use AP or white bread flour.

If you really want to be on the extreme-safe side, dry some of your starter thoroughly, put it in a sealed container (can be a Ziploc bag) and freeze it. I've never been so concerned about mine to go that far, but others have said it can last even a few years in that state, and is revived easily when needed.

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

I understand your logic, in terms of extending the time/food source while you are gone by not letting things get going too far after feeding, but my understanding is that you ideally want to select for organisms that will ferment well at room temps, and so should get those guys going and populating your starter, then slow that population down.  The other common advice is to make a stiff starter (say 50% hydration) if it is going to be stored for a longer period of time.  This also slows things down. Then compensate to return to your normal hydration when you return. You might also use less of the previous starter if it is mature in 2 hrs.

The recommendations I've received are to let starter come to room temp - feed - let sit at room temp for ~30min. - then into the fridge.

That said, I have done just what you mention and after a few feedings at room temps, have been back in business without any harm that I can tell...

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

Here is dabrownman's recent advice on a parallel thread. It always seems to work for him.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/295755#comment-295755

valereee's picture
valereee

There seems to be a lot of math in this art/science!  :)  

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I like to make sure that the starter is at full strength before refrigerating it by doing a 3 stage starter build.   I use whole rye home milled starter for my stock and put it in the fridge after it rises 25% after the 3rd feeding.  I make sure it doubles in volume after the 2nd feeding in 4 hours or less.  If it fails to double, then i repeat the 2nd stage feeding again.  Since I'm not feeding the starter for the 6 weeks in the fridge, I want to make sure it is at full strength before doing the final feeding and taking the hydration down to 66%.  It also works for other whole grain Wheat flour as well

I've been doing this for some time now - over a year.  You also want to take some of your starter, say a tablespoon, spread it thinly on some parchment and let it dry,  Fold up the parchment and put it In a glass jar with a lid and put it in a cool cupboard.  Should something happen you can just add water and flout to the dried starter using 3 builds and be back in business again in a day.

Happy baking

valereee's picture
valereee

I can see I've got some learning to do.  :)  I've been making no-knead bread for years with excellent success, but the change to a sourdough starter instead of yeast has put me back to beginner status!  :)  

valereee's picture
valereee

DavidEF, thanks, yes, I've got the level marked for a just-fed culture, and when I looked at it again ~2 hours later it had doubled.  I'd fed it about 15 hours earlier (discarded all but 4 oz, fed 4 oz each of spring water and KAF AP.)  House is approximately 70F.  So feeding it MORE will make it double less quickly?  

I don't want to end up with a ton I have to discard...should I perhaps discard down to 2 oz, then add 4oz each of water and flour?  And then, what, if it still doubles too quickly, go to 1:3:3?

bikeprof, thanks!  So instead of a 1:1:1 to slow down, I'd go to maybe 1:1:2, let it sit for 30, then fridge? 

Val 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Mine doubles after the 2nd feeding in about 2 hours, in the summer, and in 1 hour after the 3rd feeding. it can take 4 hours to double after the 3rd feeding in the winter.

The math is not too bad with sourdough- mainly; add, subtract, multiply and divide. Hydration is just the liquid in the dough by weight divided by the flour weight.

So if you have 100g of 100% hydration levain it has 50 g each if flour and water. If you want to make a bread at 72% hydration using this levain and the total weight is 800 g before baking then, the amount of the levain as a percent of the total is 100g divided by 800g, or .125 = 12.5%. If the total amount is 800 g, then 800 g - 100g levain =700 g will be the total flour and water weight added to the levain to make the dough.

To find out how much flour and water will be required to make up this 700 g of flour water is also pretty easy once you see it done. The water is always expressed as a percent of the flour and the flour always equals 100%. So an 800 g bread at 72% hydration will always have 100% flour = 1 and 72% water = .72 The flour and water = the total amount so 800 g of dough at 72% hydration will be 800 g = 1 (the flour) + .72 the water. So 800 = 1.72 and if you divide each side by 1,72 you get 800 /1.72 = 1.72/1.72 you get 800/1.72 or 465g on one side and 1.72/1/72 = 1 on the other side. We know that 1 (100%) is always the flour so the flour amount is 465 g. and the water amount is 800 g - 465 g of flour = 335 G of water. That is about as complicated as bread making gets.

Since the levain already has 50 g each of flour and water in it so, the dough flour will be 465g - 50g or 415 g and the water required will be 335g -50g = 285 g of water making 415 g of flour + 285 of water = 700 g the dough flour and water + the 100 g of levain = 800 g total.

I also don't ever throw anything away feeling that there are too many starving people in the world and not being wasteful has to help feed them. Also, being thrifty is a virtue they say - who ever they are:-)  I use the math above to make sure that nothing ever gets thrown away – no matter what.  Here is how.

If you want to make a loaf of SD bread that weighs 1000 g and is 75% hydration before baking and you want 15% of that amount to be the levain then, 1000 times .15 = 150 g of levain. If i want that levain to be 80% hydration then 150/1.8 equals 83 g of flour and 150 - 83 equals 67 g of water.

If you starter is 100% hydration and you want the seed starter to be 10% of the levain then 150 times .1 = 15 g of seed starter. This seed starter has 7.5 g each of flour and water in it so to make the 150 g of levain, you would have to add 83 - 7.5 = 75.5 g of flour to it and 67 – 7.5 = 59.5 g of water to make the total 150 g . In reality we would just add whole numbers to the flour and water so, in this case, we would end up with 15 g of starter + 76 g of flour and 60 g of water to get 151 g of levain - no worries.   You can either add all the flour and water to the seed starter all at once and wait for it to double or do a 3 stage build like I do -  that requires more math but not much more.

I like to double the amount of flour and water I add every feeding.  So if the first feeding is 1 then the 2nd feeding is 2 and the 3rd feeding is 4.  So a 3 stage build would have 1+2+4 = 7 equal parts divided into the total amount.  In this case I'm adding 76 g of flour total and 60 g of water.  If you divide each by 7 you get the first feeding amount.  The flour would be 76g/7 = 10.86 g of flour and 60g/ 7 = 8.57 g = the water for the first feeding.  I always round up and use 11 g of flour and 9 g of water for the first feeding and 22 g of flour and 18 g of water for the 2nd feeding and the 3rd feeding brings everything back into perfect balance.   76g-11-22 = 43 g of flour for the 3rd feeding and  60 g - 9 -18 = 33 g of water for the 3rd feeding. 

Back to our 1000 g of dough that needs to be 75% hydration.  So 1000g /1.75 = 571 g of flour total and 1000 - 571 = 429 g of total water is required.   Since the levain has 83 g of flour and 67 g of water in it, subtracting these amounts from the total gives you the amount of flour and water required for the dough.  571 - 83 = 488 g of flour and 429 – 67 = 362 g of water.

After you do it for a while it will become 2nd nature.  The math is really the easiest and most boring part of making bread but,  without it, bread quality would be very hit and miss.  Who knew that simple math would be required to make a decent loaf of bread?  it just takes a little bit of practice but it is as easy to master as a loaf of bread!

Oddly, my grandmother nor mother used math to make their SD bread.  They did it all by touch and feel.  Way easier on the brain.  They liked to hug a lot too:-)

Happy SD baking!

 

valereee's picture
valereee

Thanks!  It's my own!  My very first loaf came out great...good rise, good crumb, great flavor.  Apparently that was beginner's luck, as since then I've had one flat, dense loaf after another.  Still great flavor, but I've been baking no-knead using SAF Red for years with great crumb and rise, and it's irritating me that I can't seem to get consistent results with sourdough starter!  

My first loaf:

 

valereee's picture
valereee

Yeah, I've gotten to the point my regular yeasted no-knead bread was mostly by touch and feel.  I measured my ingredients, but I can tell whether the dough needs a bit more water or flour once I get it mixed.  I could let it sit for 8 hours or 20, and I'd still end up with great bread.  I don't have that feel yet for the sourdough version -- I would swear the dough looks and feels the same as the yeasted version when I've mixed it up, but the next day it's falling apart.  I'm wondering if maybe I should try proofing it for a shorter time, or proof it in the fridge overnight, or both, or what.  :)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

then it is likely over proofing on the counter.  Just put it in the fridge overnight;  Knock it back in the morning and shape it for final proof on the counter or shape it and put it the basket and let it final proof in the fridge overnight - you can bake it cold right out of the fridge or let it warm up on the counter as the oven heats if it needs more proofing to get to 85% .  I would do the latter but either way works.  Just watch the dough and not the clock so it goes in the oven at 85-90% proof.

No knead dough is very wet and if the SD over proofs you will have ....flat dense breads resulting.

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

I'm not sure what is what in the ratios you refer to, and we have two different considerations going here - hydration and percentage of old starter into the new.  You can decrease the hydration to extend fermentation time, and decrease the percentage of starter in the next build to do the same, but you should ideally have it all at about the temp you ferment dough at, and let it begin to develop, before putting in the fridge.

In the sourdough class at SFBI, an illustrative recommendation for storing a starter for 4-6 weeks was to take 50g of 100% hydration starter that is active and mix with 100g of flour, let sit for 30min to 1hr, and then put in fridge.  Then take that out when you get back and mix it with 100g of H20 to get back to your normal hydration, and refresh from there as usual.

But again, these things a pretty forgiving, and the above was just an illustration, so as long as you are pretty conscientious, you will be fine.  There are endless prescriptions out there that work, and I doubt any one is best for all or worth worrying about too much. The example follows the basic principles and keeps the numbers fairly easy to remember.

valereee's picture
valereee

bikeprof, sorry -- I usually feed my starter by discarding all but 4 oz of starter and adding 4 oz each of water and flour.  Though I feel so wasteful discarding ~a cup each time that I was considering when I get back cutting everything in half.  Or else finding a lot more discard recipes!  :)  

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

I've gone to much smaller amounts for my starter because of the waste too.  I discard all but a teaspoon or two clinging to the jar, then refresh with 20g each of water and flour.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

bikeprof,

Like you, I keep a small amount of starter to eliminate waste. Last summer, there were days when I'd scrape out the bowl until it couldn't be scraped much more, and add at least 20g each of flour and water, sometimes more. I'd put the water in first and shake it around to get the last remnants of starter off the walls of the bowl, then add the flour. At times when I did measure the starter, my feeding ratio was around 1:10:10 and still ready to feed again in 12 hours.

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

double click

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

valereee,

You can keep a lot less starter than you do. If you need more when you bake, it can be built up to the size you need at the time. If your scale can measure in grams, you can keep just a few grams of starter. You could also keep your starter in the fridge and only feed it when you bake, eliminating the "discard" altogether!