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Pane Valle Maggia, ver. 2 3/7/2014

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dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Pane Valle Maggia, ver. 2 3/7/2014

Pane Valle Maggia, ver. 2

March 7 , 2014

 

Last month, I made Pane Valle Maggia, inspired by Josh's “Pain Maggiore.” It was a very good bread, but I wanted to make it again using freshly milled whole wheat flour. Also, I thought it would be improved by pre-fermenting the rye component. So, I made both changes for today's bake. The Total Dough ingredients were basically unchanged.

The whole wheat flour was milled with the KitchenAid mixer's Grain Mill attachment. I put Hard Red Winter Wheat Berries purchased in bulk at Whole Foods Market through 4 passes, starting with the coarsest setting and progressing to the finest setting.

The rye sour was elaborated in 3 builds from my refrigerated rye sour.

  

Whole Wheat Levain

Wt. (g)

Baker’s %

Active liquid levain (70% AP; 20% WW; 10% Rye)

16

48

Fresh-milled Whole Wheat flour

33

100

Water

36

109

Total

85

257

 

Rye Sour

Wt. (g)

Baker’s %

Active Rye Sour (100% hydration)

54

50

KAF Medium Rye flour

109

100

Water

109

100

Total

272

250

 

Both levains were mixed in the late evening and fermented at room temperature for about 14 hours.

 

Final Dough

Wt. (g)

Fresh-milled Whole Wheat flour

141

KAF AP flour

544

Water

566

Salt

17

Both levains

357

Total

1625

 

Total Dough

Wt. (g)

Baker’s %

AP flour

550

64

Whole Wheat flour

175

20

Rye flour

137

16

Water

746

86

Salt

17

2

Total

1625

188

 

Procedures

  1. In the bowl of a stand mixer with the paddle installed, disperse the two levains in 500g of the Final Dough Water.

  2. Add the flours and mix at low speed to a shaggy mass.

  3. Cover and allow to autolyse for 1-3 hours.

  4. Add the salt and mix at low speed to combine.

  5. Switch to the dough hook and mix to medium gluten development.

  6. Add the remaining 66g of water and continue mixing until the dough comes back together.

  7. Transfer to a well-floured board and stretch and fold into a ball.

  8. Place the dough in an oiled bowl and cover.

  9. Bulk ferment for about 3-4 hours with Stretch and Folds on the board every 40 minutes for 3 or 4 times. (Note: This is a rather slack, sticky dough. It gains strength as it ferments and you stretch and fold it, but you still have to flour the board and your hands well to prevent too much of the dough from sticking. Use the bench knife to free the dough when it is sticking to the bench.)

  10. Divide the dough into two equal pieces and pre-shape round.

  11. Cover with a damp towel or plasti-crap and allow to rest for 15-30 minutes.

  12. Shape as tight boules or bâtards and place in floured bannetons, seam-side up.

  13. Put each banneton in a food-safe plastic bag and refrigerate for 8-12 hours.

  14. Pre-heat the oven for 45-60 minutes to 500 dF with a baking stone and steaming apparatus in place.

  15. Take the loaves out of the refrigerator. Place them on a peel. Score them as you wish. (I believe the traditional scoring is 3 parallel cuts across a round loaf.)

  16. Transfer the loaves to the baking stone.

  17. Bake with steam for 13 minutes, then remove your steaming apparatus/vent the oven.

  18. Continue baking for 20-25 minutes. The loaves should be darkly colored with firm crusts. The internal temperature should be at least 205 dF.

  19. Transfer to a cooling rack and cool completely before slicing.

 

The whole wheat flour particle size was much larger than that of the Giusto's fine whole wheat flour I had been using. It had a sandy consistency, not unlike Semolina flour. When mixed, the dough was slack but also soft like an semolina semolina dough. It did pass an early window pane test after mixing. The dough gained strength during bulk fermentation with 3 stretch and folds on the board, but it remained more extensible and less elastic that the dough made with fine whole wheat flour. I was concerned that the crumb would be too dense.

I baked these loaves right out of the refrigerator.

 

The crust was thinner and less crunchy than the last bake of this bread. The crumb was less open than last time and had fewer large holes than ordinarily expected of a dough at this high-hydration level. I really can't attribute the denser crumb to the coarser whole wheat flour. This bread is 20% whole wheat, while the San Francisco Sourdough I made with the same flour has 30% whole wheat. I really am unable to nail any of the other "usual suspects" at the moment. I'll just have to make this bread again and see. Oh, the sacrifices we make! 

This bread had a wonderful aroma. It was very tender and less chewy than the last bake.The flavor was extraordinary. When first sliced after cooling, the bread was very sour, which I attribute particularly to my use of rye sour. It was not so sour as to mask the delicious, complex flavor. A wonderful sweet, wheaty flavor predominated. I could not discern a distinct rye contribution to the flavor. In fact, the flavors were well-balanced and integrated. I am accustomed to this kind of mixed flour bread needing at least 24 hours for the flavors to meld. It will be interesting to see what this tastes like tomorrow.

I found myself wanting to keep tasting the bread while cleaning up after lunch. It occurred to me that this is a bread I could easily make a meal of, no butter, cheese or other distractions necessary. This is definitely a bread I will want to make frequently.

Since I was going to be milling flour anyway, I figured I might as well mill enough to make a couple loaves of San Francisco-style Sourdough Bread with increased whole wheat. (See: San Francisco-style Sourdough Bread with increased whole wheat flour)

 

I was pleasantly surprised when I sliced the SF SD. The crumb was really nice and open. Moreover, the crumb was moderately chewy. Obviously, there is more going on than the difference in the whole wheat flour. The flavor had in common with the Pane Valle Maggia a moderate sour tang and a lovely, wheaty flavor. 

And, since I was feeding my rye sour anyway, I figured I might as well build enough for a couple loaves of Jewish Sour Rye.

 

 

 This rye, like the last ones, was baked at the higher temperature - 460 dF for 15 minutes, then 440 dF for another 20 minutes. I do like the results better than those I got baking at 375 dF. Very good when first sliced and delicious toasted  for breakfast.

All in all, a very good couple of baking days. 

Happy baking!

David

Comments

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi David,

Aaahhh, the old 'if you give a mouse a cookie' routine. One thing invariably leading to another and another and another.  (Twas one of the books my children loved to hear when they were young.)

I love all of your results!  Love the scoring on the PVM loaves and the bold crust color.

Glad to hear you are liking the flavor of added freshly milled grain despite the textural changes it creates in your doughs.  

Take Care,

Janet

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

After slicing and tasting the SFSD, it's hard to say the WW flour is what changed the PVM crumb.

David

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hummm.  Always a new twist.  Great looking crumb!  

Janet

golgi70's picture
golgi70

How did the flour girnd?  Was it still coarse or did you manage a decent flour?  Do you use DDT when you mix?  Temp your final dough?  

A simple suggestion for folds would be using wet hands and doing the folds in its oiled  container to avoid the sticky nature of this dough.  This will decrease tearing.  

I've made so many variations of this bread and all have been great when it comes to taste. The texture is the biggest variable so far.  It never fails to satisfy though.

How's the addition of fresh wheat to the SFSD?  

Jewish Rye looks amazing.  Whats the percentage of Rye?  

I tried to find that Old Peculiar and to no avail but I haven't given up yet. 

Nice Bakes

Josh

Sorry for the 20 Questions but I couldn't help myself

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The flour grind went well. I described the 4 passes. However, at best, it ends up Semolina consistancey.

I did not use DDT. I've never gotten into the routine of monitoring dough temperature. Bad, eh?

I like the idea of doing the S&F's in the 6L Cambro bucket I use for dough batches that won't fit in my 2L batter pitcher. 

Since you read the OP, I sliced and tasted the SFSD. My comments and a crumb photo have been edited into the OP. 

I'll add a link to the Sour Rye formula as well.

Re. Old Peculiar: You might ask a local liquor store if their distributor handles it. But, if not, you can console yourself with the thought that there are many other very good ales available. 

David

golgi70's picture
golgi70

 

Have you ever done the Rye with whole Rye in place of the medium?  It's all I have available and I think I may give it a go.  

As to DDT and such.  Well good bread or shall I say great bread can be made so many ways.  Temperature changes timing and flavor though so I like to moderate for consistencies sake.  It looks as if your PM may be a touch underproofed and was wondering if your wheat grind changed the crumb or the proof.  Still looks great.  But by no means must you adhere to such rules as you have a fine hand without.  Maybe with the fresh ground wheat you could boost hydration further?  

The SFSD looks stellar.  

I'll find that beer before long and I'm sure I'll enjoy

Nice Bake

Josh

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The bake before yesterday's of the Sour Rye, I fed the second build 100% organic whole rye. And, years ago, before I got Greenstein's book, I used to bake the 100% Sourdough rye in Reinhart's BBA with 100% whole rye. It was intensely sour. Hmm... I'm pretty sure that, at some point, I baked the Greenstein Rye with whole rye. Anyway, it's just a 40% rye bread.

I'd say do not hesitate. Go for it! It's going to be delicious. (I hope you like really sour rye bread.) And let us know how it works for you.

Regarding the PVM: I don't think I need to boost hydration. I think using a bulk fermentation procedure like that I've used for Ken Forkish's breads will yield better gluten development. And I'll shoot for optimal fermentation. 

Do you think that the fairly prolonged machine mixing (probably 10 min. on Speed 2 in a KA) could have adversely affected the crumb structure? I wonder if eliminating machine mixing in favor of more frequent (every 30 minutes) S&F in the bowl would give me a better product. 

Thanks for the complement!

David

golgi70's picture
golgi70

 

I've mixed PVM (I like that.  My friend refers to Pain de Campagne as PDC) by hand and by mixer.  I have been mixing all doughs much more gently for longer these days.  Develop gluten gently over more time.  With PVM I'd only mix to very moderate development just some tug.  Do the rest with well placed folds.  This is why I like a rectangular proofing container.  It makes doing folds in the tub very easy with wet hands.  As you already mentioned the dough gains much strength during bulk ferment.  I go for a warmer dough and slightly shorter bulk ferment.  Followed by a longer cold proof.  Bulk is usually 2 1/2- 3 hours with 3 or 4 folds @ 40 minute intervals.  Divide, rest, shape, retard immediately.  I aim for my dough around 76-78 deg F.  

Wait how many speeds is your KA?  

Josh

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Yup. It does sound like we are thinking along the same lines. I appreciate you providing the details. I'm going to try something like what you describe next go.

The KA has 10 speeds. Speed 2 is regarded as "medium" and is the top speed KA recommends for mixing bread dough. Don't tell, but I've gone up to Speed 4 for some very slack doughs from Leader's "Local Breads." Now-a-days, I think there are better ways to handle slack doughs.

David

golgi70's picture
golgi70

Learning everyday but the more whole grain the more gentle we mix.  And more so when you have  a decent amount of rye.  Speed 2 on a 10 speed kitchenaid doesn't sound so bad.  My mixer has hit the top speeds for ciabattas and focaccia but they are very wet.  

I got some Kamut Take 3 to shape/bake tomorrow and another PVM.  This time another variation.  I've retarded the split levain (1/2 liquid white/wheat 1/2 rye sour) at their peak.  Will mix and shape tomorrow and then retard for a Sunday Bake.  

I'm happy your becoming obsessed with this bread too.  

Josh

Darwin's picture
Darwin

Your bread always look fantastic, absolutely delicious. :)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I've been looking at the recipes for the SFSD and the PVM and the only thing that comes to mind is that the PVM might have 2-4 % too much hydration for the whole grains and in connection with the a lot if mixer it comes out too slack? I would be tempted to do an 82% hydration and do slap and folds instead of the mixer to see if it is still sticking to the counter at the end of 6 minutes of slapping, a 12 minute rest and a couple fo slap and folds in the 2nd set.  Depending on how it feels you can adjust it then with more water or flour to get it just right and see if that fixes the crumb.  I'm still baffled though.  No matter what this bread is still great tasting and will make a fine sandwich slice or crrustini with anything on it.

The SFSD and the rye are just gorgeous as usual - they look just like they should in evey way.

Well done and happy baking David.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I'm going to mix totally by hand next time. I prefer the "stretch and fold in the bowl" to the "slap and fold" technique, but I think it accomplishes the same thing. I also wonder about the fermentation. Josh thought it may have been under-fermented. Looking at how well aerated the crumb is, I have trouble believing that, but I have a lot of respect for Josh, so I'll watch fermentation (even more) carefully next time.

Thanks for your kind words.

David

golgi70's picture
golgi70

Based on the bloom from the oven it looked maybe a touch underproofed (could have stayed in the retarder another 6 hours before baking)  but what I was mentioning was you may have gathered too much strength during bulk fermentation.

 I think I may have done the same with my batch today.  It's in the retarder to be baked later tonight.  We shall see.  So over fermented no but maybe you developed too much strength in the dough?  That also closes up the crumb and would lead to a loaf that busts a bit more. I mixed by hand today.  My levains were retarded overnight (got too busy to finish yesterday and opted to do it today)  and may have brought a bit more acid to the party than normal and I followed the same timeline as usual.  Could have gotten by with just 2 s/f spaced a bit further a part.  We shall see.  My Kamut take 3 went foul again in the opposite direction of things so now I got to find the middle ground.  Again its flat but tastes really good.  

Cheers 

Josh

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I get the "under proofed" part, and I agree. I baked the PVM loaves right out of the (4 dC) refrigerator after spending about 14 hours there. It might have benefited from a couple hours at room temperature before baking.  

I find it's harder to judge dough strength with very high-hydration doughs. And I mean hydration near 80% or greater. Maybe I just need more experience. 75% hydration dough and I are intimate friends of long standing. 

I would bet that eliminating the machine mixing is going to result in a much more open crumb.

David

golgi70's picture
golgi70

By hand or machine and just get the mass together.  Then go with folding.  I'm pretty sure I got my dough to strong today all by hand and mostly through folds and time.  We'll see.  Gonna bake in about an hour.  I avoid the slap and fold method unless I'm doing a white or mostly white bread for all the reasons we've been talking of.  Gentle.  I'm very interested to see if it has anything to do with your coarse wheat or its just the mixing

Josh

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

to equal 2-3 minutes of KA mixing on 2.  The gluten isn't nearly fully developed at this point.  Then this is followed up with 3-4 sets of stretch and folds when the gluten development is finished - one set being 4 stretches and folds from the compass points on 20-30 minute intervals.  I used to do 3 sets of slap and folds of 7, 3 and 1 minutes followed bu 3 sets of S&F's but the crumb is much better the new way.  I think I was overworking it.

I'm guessing the old way not followed by any S&F's would work better too..

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Somebody has been having fun in the kitchen lately...nice to see a variety from you David.  The Jewish Sour Rye sends cravings through me.  Might be time for some rye in this house.

Happy baking David.

John

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Okay. I'll admit it. I had fun in the kitchen. It's true.

Happy baking to you tool, John!

David

Syd's picture
Syd

Nice baking David. :)

It occurred to me that this is a bread I could easily make a meal of, no butter, cheese or other distractions necessary. This is definitely a bread I will want to make frequently.

I know exactly what you mean when you say that.  The taste lingers on in you mouth for a long time after you have swallowed it and you find yourself going back for another slice and another and...

I love the look of your rye.  I might have asked you this before but how do you get that shiny crust?  Is it water or an egg wash.

All the best,

Syd

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks for your kind words.

I think you might have nailed one of the addictive qualities: A good flavor plus a long finish.

The rye breads are brushed before and after baking with a cornstarch glaze. The instructions are in the linked blog posting. See Step 10. of the Procedures.

David

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Everything looks great David, as always. The SF SD is superb! and so is the jewish rye.

I think that Josh and DA have pretty much summed up the reason behind the close texture pane maggia. Like you i don't calculate DDT, but i mix warm water to ensure a warm dough (body temperature).

All the best,

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David