The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Deli Rye and Spiced Meat Pie

varda's picture

Deli Rye and Spiced Meat Pie


Deli Rye is a favorite of mine, but it's hard to come by well made and authentic versions of it.    Fortunately it was one of the four breads we made at the King Arthur Rye class.   Today, I made this bread with one change - charnushka instead of caraway.   A simple change but wow, what a difference in flavor.   Frankly I was testing the theory that my husband's claim not to like rye was really a dislike of caraway.   He loved this bread, so I guess I'm right.    This is a very mild 20% rye bread with no sour flavor whatsoever.    It has a very nice texture, and the charnushka is just a lovely complement to the rye.  

I continue to use the new steaming method recommended by PeterS and I think it makes a big improvement to the crust.

Altogether this is a bread I will want to make again and again.    And so ends my series on the King Arthur Rye Class.   Someone else will have to post on the quark bread.  

Formula and method:

Rye sour   8:30 PM      Total
Seed 50        
Whole Rye 27 80     107
Water 23 65     88
  Final Sour Total Percent  
Whole Rye 0 97 97 20%  
KAAP 384   384 80%  
Water 256 79 335 70%  
Salt 10   10 2.0%  
Yeast 2   2 0.4%  
Charnushka 6   6 1.2%  
Sour 176        
Rye Sour seed hydration 83%    
Rye Sour hydration   82%    
Starter factor   0.90    
Total Flour   481    
Total Whole Grain   20%    
Total Dough   828    
Percent prefermented flour 20%    
Hydration     70%    

Allow starter to ripen 16 hours after last build.   Mix all ingredients - consistency is somewhere in between a dough and a paste.   Bulk Ferment 1 hour.    Shape into stubby batard.   Coat with seeds.   Proof 50 minutes.   Slash crossways 5 times.   Bake 45 minutes at 450 with steam for 1st 5 minutes.  

Now from the sublime to the ridiculous.    I have been experimenting with baking with the discard from my daily starter mixes.   I tried crackers - needs work.   Bread - total disaster.  Then I moved on to hot pockets.    First a cheese pocket.   Then a few changes and salami and cheese.   These were promising.    Today, I put together a spiced meat pie.   It came out really nicely.   For some reason the discard starter just works really well on this.    The bread is very sour, but the meat stands up to it so it all seems just right. 



Discard Starter (Rye and Wheat starters)    400g   (Rye is 83% hydration, wheat is 67% - together around 75%)

KAAP  300g

Water  200g

Salt   14g

(When I feed my starters twice per day, I put the discard into a lidded container in the refrigerator.   This starter is the product of the last week or so.)

Mix all ingredients until blended and fairly developed (just a few minutes)

Bulk Ferment on counter 3 hours.   

Brown 1 lb ground beef in pan and remove some of the fat.    Do not cook thoroughly.   Mix in chopped onions, italian plum tomatoes (canned around  6 of them without much of the juice) and spice with cumin, cardamon, coriander, ginger, black pepper, cayenne, cilantro, salt.)   Press out dough onto parchment paper on counter until fairly thin (1/4 inch.)  Proof covered around 45 minutes.    Place filling on one side of the dough, fold over and press the edges tight.   Refrigerate until 1 hour before dinner.   Pierce with knife all over.  Bake at 400F with steam for first 5 minutes for around 55 minutes.   Serve.  

Not bad.   Should have used more spices, and sauteed the onion with the meat.    Even though I tried to keep the liquid down, it still got pretty wet and some of it leaked out.   




varda's picture

Hey Janet,  I'm afraid you misread my formula - I put in 1.2% charnuska or 4 times what you put in - I'm just reading off the number from above.  So I'm guessing it will be too little to have much impact.   Next time.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture

I can't believe I misread it!!!  And I didn't tweak even though I had a feeling .3 wasn't enough.  Now I am wondering where the heck I came up with my figure!!!

It is on my 'to bake' list again in a couple of weeks so I have made note of the 'proper' amt.

Thanks so much for letting me know.  Did you find that it just imparted a peppery taste?  Even dry in the bowl the seeds just don't cast off much aroma...or at least not like some spices I have used in breads.

Take Care,



varda's picture

Hey Janet.   I would not call the charnushka peppery.   It has its very own flavor which I'm somewhat at a loss to describe.  I know you don't eat bread, but I'm sure you could try it in something else, and you could get the sense of it.   Also, I didn't include the seeds sprinkled on top of the loaf in the 1.2% so that gives an additional flavor boost.   Hope that you get good reviews despite the charnushka dearth.  -Varda

bonnibakes's picture

My comment is two years after this very interesting thread. Regardless of its many names in many places, these seeds were always lightly sprinkled on the top of Russian Rye loaves when I was a kid in Brooklyn. They are both yummy & attractive when sprinkled on crackers or flatbread, in addition to white sesame seeds & chunky sea salt.

varda's picture

Curious what was the Russian Rye?   Nowadays I use Charnushka for Flaxseed Rye, which is a german style rye, but hadn't heard of it on Russian.  

bonnibakes's picture

At our local Brooklyn bakery it was called Russian Rye, as opposed to Rye Bread. It was a large oval loaf with charnushka seeds on top vs. carraway on regular rye. It could have been Corn Bread.