The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Deli Rye and Spiced Meat Pie

  • Pin It
varda's picture
varda

Deli Rye and Spiced Meat Pie

 

Deli Rye is a favorite of mine, but it's hard to come by well made and authentic versions of it.    Fortunately it was one of the four breads we made at the King Arthur Rye class.   Today, I made this bread with one change - charnushka instead of caraway.   A simple change but wow, what a difference in flavor.   Frankly I was testing the theory that my husband's claim not to like rye was really a dislike of caraway.   He loved this bread, so I guess I'm right.    This is a very mild 20% rye bread with no sour flavor whatsoever.    It has a very nice texture, and the charnushka is just a lovely complement to the rye.  

I continue to use the new steaming method recommended by PeterS and I think it makes a big improvement to the crust.

Altogether this is a bread I will want to make again and again.    And so ends my series on the King Arthur Rye Class.   Someone else will have to post on the quark bread.  

Formula and method:

3/16/2013          
           
Rye sour   8:30 PM      Total
Seed 50        
Whole Rye 27 80     107
Water 23 65     88
          195
           
3/17/2013          
  Final Sour Total Percent  
Whole Rye 0 97 97 20%  
KAAP 384   384 80%  
Water 256 79 335 70%  
Salt 10   10 2.0%  
Yeast 2   2 0.4%  
Charnushka 6   6 1.2%  
Sour 176        
           
Rye Sour seed hydration 83%    
Rye Sour hydration   82%    
Starter factor   0.90    
Total Flour   481    
Total Whole Grain   20%    
Total Dough   828    
Percent prefermented flour 20%    
Hydration     70%    

Allow starter to ripen 16 hours after last build.   Mix all ingredients - consistency is somewhere in between a dough and a paste.   Bulk Ferment 1 hour.    Shape into stubby batard.   Coat with seeds.   Proof 50 minutes.   Slash crossways 5 times.   Bake 45 minutes at 450 with steam for 1st 5 minutes.  

Now from the sublime to the ridiculous.    I have been experimenting with baking with the discard from my daily starter mixes.   I tried crackers - needs work.   Bread - total disaster.  Then I moved on to hot pockets.    First a cheese pocket.   Then a few changes and salami and cheese.   These were promising.    Today, I put together a spiced meat pie.   It came out really nicely.   For some reason the discard starter just works really well on this.    The bread is very sour, but the meat stands up to it so it all seems just right. 

 

Bread:

Discard Starter (Rye and Wheat starters)    400g   (Rye is 83% hydration, wheat is 67% - together around 75%)

KAAP  300g

Water  200g

Salt   14g

(When I feed my starters twice per day, I put the discard into a lidded container in the refrigerator.   This starter is the product of the last week or so.)

Mix all ingredients until blended and fairly developed (just a few minutes)

Bulk Ferment on counter 3 hours.   

Brown 1 lb ground beef in pan and remove some of the fat.    Do not cook thoroughly.   Mix in chopped onions, italian plum tomatoes (canned around  6 of them without much of the juice) and spice with cumin, cardamon, coriander, ginger, black pepper, cayenne, cilantro, salt.)   Press out dough onto parchment paper on counter until fairly thin (1/4 inch.)  Proof covered around 45 minutes.    Place filling on one side of the dough, fold over and press the edges tight.   Refrigerate until 1 hour before dinner.   Pierce with knife all over.  Bake at 400F with steam for first 5 minutes for around 55 minutes.   Serve.  

Not bad.   Should have used more spices, and sauteed the onion with the meat.    Even though I tried to keep the liquid down, it still got pretty wet and some of it leaked out.   

 

 

Comments

linder's picture
linder

Varda,

That is a beautiful loaf of rye bread.  I like the meat pie idea too.  What a great use of sourdough 'discard'!  The crumb of the rye bread looks terrific.  The taste of the charnushka is really distintive, nothing else like it.  The combination of rye with it must have been very different from the caraway.  Great bakes -

Linda

varda's picture
varda

aka nigella, aka black caraway, aka black cumin.    I was looking for poppy seeds one day and came home with this instead.   Thanks so much for your comments.    -Varda

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Very nice rye varda!  I can only hope that my crumb turns out like that when I slice into them tomorrow.  You also have my mouth watering with the meat pie.  One of my weaknesses.

Thanks for this post!

John

varda's picture
varda

John,   Any suggestions on how to make a better meat pie?    This is my first one, and I was definitely winging it.   Thanks for your comments.  -Varda

 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Varda.  I am assuming you were going after more of an Indian spiced meat pie judging from your spices.  I live in a very East Indian rich city so I have learned from some of the best indian home cooks over the years.  Key points in cooking Indian food is when browning the onions and meat, you should add the dry spices to toast up in the fats so they become nice and nutty and fragrant.  I would not add the cilantro until the very end - meaning, shut off the heat, then add to the mixture.  Something else that may help is Indian spices use a paste base of ginger, garlic and chilies.  These three ingredients show up in most indian dishes as the base flavouring.  What I do is grind up equal parts of some fresh garlic, chilies, and ginger into a paste.  I then smear the paste about a 1/4 inch thick onto a sheet of plastic wrap and freeze.  You can then break off peices of this paste whenever needed.  Cook this paste down once the onions are pretty much done.  If you add this paste too soon, the garlic will burn.

Also to keep in mind is, if using tomatoes, do make sure you add them AFTER you have added the dry spices.  After adding the tomatoes, make sure you cook ALL the liquid out of them.  This will take care of the moisture problem you experienced.  Unless it is a gravy, liquid and meat pie pastry do not mesh well together.

If you weren't going for a Indian spiced meat pie, I would use the same techniques no matter what spices I use, be it Mexican, Middle Eastern, Jamaican, etc.  Just make sure to cook out all the liquid to ensure you have a dry filling.  If too dry, simply add some fat.  I usually add some olive oil to make it healthier than meat fat.   The only other thing I would suggest is taste the filling before assembling into the pastry.  Test for seasoning and if all the spices are to your liking.  This would be the time to change anything prior to locking it up in that yummy pastry dough.

Hope this helps!

John

 

varda's picture
varda

John,   This is extremely helpful.    Thanks so much!  -Varda

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

No problem whatsoever!  I am still learning this bread thing, but cooking is more my specialty. 

Also, don't use too much tomato when doing an indian flavouring base.  If you use one whole onion, only 2-3 crushed canned plumb tomatoes will do the trick.  Or a small tsp of tomato paste.  This will also help decrease the moisture.

John

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Varda.  Not to go on and on about this dish of yours (sorry Indian cuisine is a passion of mine!), I would use much more onion, and cook it out more.  Finely mince it, and cook down on medium heat for at least 20 minutes.  Indians use a LOT of onion in their flavour bases.  Judging from your photo, I would use at least 1 large onion, cooked down very well until lightly browned.  As long as it's cooked down enough, it won't be overpowering.

Good luck!

John

varda's picture
varda

about going on and on.   My bread baking is way ahead of my cooking, but the one pulls the other along.   It sounds like the reverse is true for you.    I am going to try making new and improved meat pie as soon as I have enough discard starter for it.    I suppose if I really want to make it Indian, I'll have to replace the ground beef with ground lamb.   Thanks again.  

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Varda.

Ground lamb would be nice, but Indian do use ground beef as well so no worries.  Hell, you can throw in some ground chicken if you want.  Once you have the cooking process the way you like, the spices will over power the meat flavour anyhow so no worries.

John

isand66's picture
isand66

Great looking rye bread.  Your crumb and crust look fantastic.  Love the meat pies.  They also look tasty,

regards

Ian

varda's picture
varda

this mild rye after the higher percentage and much sourer ones I've been making.   And meat pie is just good hearty pub food.   Thanks for commenting.  -Varda

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

Although I think that you may be closer to a calzone than to a meat pie.  The pies usually have a short pastry crust.  Calzones are, effectively, a pizza folded in half before baking, using a yeasted dough.  No matter what you call it, yours looks very tasty.

Paul

varda's picture
varda

Paul,  When I made my salami and cheese version I called it a calzone, but somehow that name didn't seem right with this filling.    I suppose if people call their ham and pineapple concoctions pizza, then this is a calzone.   But wouldn't Italians everywhere stand up and protest?   Anyhow, what's in a name.   Thanks so much.  -Varda

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

That is one absolutely gorgeous loaf of rye.  What a beautiful crumb, crust, shape and lovely seed addition.  It sounds absolutely delicious.  The seeds are lovely and tasty sounding addition.  This is the first I've heard of a 'charnuska' seed.  I don't get out much 'lol'.    

I have to agree with Paul..my first thought was also Calzone!  

Cut about 3 slits in the top and let some of the steam out, next go.  Should help.  We had meat pie yesterday...Shepards pie..potatoes for the crust.

Sylvia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

varda's picture
varda

Sylvia, I'll make more aggressive slits the next time.   My son thinks I'm obsessed with making dinner inside of bread.   But he likes it anyhow and had leftovers for breakfast this morning.    Try the Charnushka if you can find it out there.    It has a delicious flavor.   Thanks for your comments.    -Varda

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Varda,

you can quite easily get away with winging meat pies when you post it alongside bread like this.   Great bread to end your sequence of posts on rye; lovely stuff!

Best wishes

Andy

varda's picture
varda

that if you have one good piece of jewelry the rest can be junk and everyone will think it's real.    But of course that has nothing to do with bread.   Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

evonlim's picture
evonlim

lovely.. those little black charnuska seeds, just tempting. must be bursting with flovors. And a huge meat pie! yummy.. 

evon



varda's picture
varda

I bet you could do wonderful things with these little black seeds.    Yes, the pie started large, and then just got bigger.   Thanks so much for commenting.  -Varda

MANNA's picture
MANNA

Varda, lets make a deal. I will photo-copy my packet from Jeff's baguettes 6-ways and you do your rye class and we'll swap packets.

varda's picture
varda

but that means I would have to give in on my don't make baguettes - they don't fit in home ovens dogma.   (Rules are made for breaking - especially self-imposed ones.)    Thanks.  -Varda

MANNA's picture
MANNA

The full length baguette is scaled at 400 grams and is to big for a home oven. I use 200 grams for a demi-baguette and it fits in the home oven just fine. I will copy my stuff this week to send out just need an email and will send it as a pdf file.

varda's picture
varda

good - see messages

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

to see your latest rye masterpiece. This one is especially good.    It almost rose and sprang into a perfect cylinder!  The crust is nicely brown and the crumb is open and looks so soft.  What a great loaf of bread.  Your training at the feet of the master baker has paid big dividends.

Indian food is my favorite because of the possible heat and exotic spice combination.   When I saw your meat pie, I ran to the spice rack to get some garam masala to throw in there with a special hot Indian chili that even Brownmen can't handle :-)

मुबारक पकाना एक मसालेदार मांस पाई और राई Varda! 

It's Hindi for Happy baking a spiced meat pie and rye Varda.

 

varda's picture
varda

self-respecting Indians would run away from my meat pie as fast as the Italians had I dared call it Calzone.   But it wasn't a bad dinner, and I've made plenty of those.   Looks like you had a tasty St. Patrick's Day.   Thanks for commenting. -Varda

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

and beautiful writeup of the course and your creations since, Varda!

Your breads are stunning, and the meat pie opens new worlds it seems.

Juergen

varda's picture
varda

It's nice to see you back.   I was just looking over your michlette post, as well as oohing and aahing over your pastry post.   A little education can go a long way it seems.   Thanks for commenting.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Varda,

Hard keeping up with all that is being posted of late....daughter home on spring bake so I have been 'away'.  

Love the rye.  One of my favorites to bake is a Deli Rye too but from Stan's book.  I love the method he uses for building the sour.  All smells heavenly when baking and people love it.  You have now given me a new ingredient to try in it (Charnuscka  sp?). I will have to see if my local grocery store carries it.  

Thank you for posting all of the rye stuff you learned.  I have really enjoyed reading your blogs related to it.

Meat pie looks good too.  Nice you found something to do with the discards.  (I know Proth5 has a great waffle recipe that uses discards too.  A favorite in our house :-)

Take Care,

Janet

varda's picture
varda

Hi Janet.   Hope you had a nice visit with your daughter.    This deli rye is much lighter than the Old School Jewish Deli Rye modified for Tzitzel from ITJB that I have been making.   I haven't tried OSJDR unmodified, or the Mild Deli Rye.   Which one do you make?    I would make the waffles (and/or pancakes) with the discard, but I don't tend to eat them, and doubt they would come out very good with my mixed rye and wheat discards.    Rye waffles?   Ptui.    Just thinking.    Thanks so much for commenting.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Varda,

I usually make the OSJDR that is the Tzitzel one if I remember correctly.  I think it is 40% rye.  I have made the Mild Deli Rye too but prefer the other one.  When I go mild I use txfarmer's 30% Rye sandwich loaf.  Not sure why.  Just what I have done.

Yep, rye waffles would leave something to be desired.  Mine are wheat based and then, due to popular demand, I toss in choc. chips which makes them not so healthy of a meal once the maple syrup and extra butter are added.  I don't make them on a regular basis......

Janet

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Varda,

Well, you got me going on looking for charnuska seeds with your post.  Local stores had none so I had to resort to the internet and found them at Penzeys.  Arrived today....just as the Jewish Deli Rye loaves I was working on came out of the oven....if only I had been more patient....oh well....guess I will have to bake it again next week so I can give the charnuska a try.

Question for you.  Since baking with them can you think of any other breads you think they would go well with?  Seems like the flavor pairs more with ryes than a wheat but I just don't know so I figured you might have some ideas.

Janet

varda's picture
varda

Janet, I haven't tried it with anything else, but such a nice flavor.   Demands experimentation.    Let me know what you try.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Will do.  Think I will stick with the deli rye first and then see where it leads...

Janet

Alpana's picture
Alpana

I have been reading all your rye blogs & have learnt a lot from them. I rarely bake rye breads so your posts were quite educational for me. Hope I can put a bit of it in practice. The meat pies remind me of my mom's calzone style lamb mince pies. Thanks for all the detailed posts.

varda's picture
varda

Hi Alpana,    I hope you try some rye baking.    It is a nice change from wheat breads.   Right now, I've had my fill, and will let it sit for awhile.   Thanks for commenting.  -Varda

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

As always, your posts are so helpful and informative.  I've got that rye formula and will give it a try.  It seems doable enough and not too labor intensive--so "refreshing" (pun intended)!  Love your pies! --Joy

varda's picture
varda

Hey Joy.   I would go back to what I said at the beginning - the hard part is making and maintaining a good starter - in this case rye sour.    The good bread just flows out from there.   Let me know how you do with this.   Thanks for commenting.  -Varda

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

Varda, I wonder if this is a recipe that appears in Hamelman's Bread.  I'm a little confused with the formula, especially the first section (rye sour the evening of 3/16).  There are two amounts (grams I'm assuming) after whole rye and water.  The total is the sum of the two amounts.  Does this mean two feedings?  In the section section (3/17), there are two figures for, again, whole rye and water.   Below that, there's a term "Starter factor"--what does this mean?  I get the percentages and the totals for flour and dough--I think.  

Thanks for clarifying.

Joy

varda's picture
varda

Joy, Recipe in the book is a bit different, but you could adjust it yourself by looking at the key numbers.

To answer your questions specifically:   I began with 50g of seed.   Of that 27g is rye flour, and 23g is water.    I fed it once - 80g rye flour and 65g of water.   Adding that to the contribution of the seed gives you the numbers in the total column.     In the 3/17 block, the leftmost column is for final dough which includes a sour amount - 176g - at the bottom.   The column next to that is the contribution to flour and water of that 176g of sour which is 97g rye flour and 79g water.   These sum in the total column.    You use the numbers in the total column to calculate baker's percents including hydration and percent rye flour and percent white flour.   The starter factor just tells me what fraction of the sour that I made, I ended up using in the final dough.   So I made 195g of sour and used 176g of  it in the final dough.   Starter factor is 176/195 = .9    Let me know if this still isn't clear.   -Varda

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

Thank you, Varda, for the explanation.  It seems an unusual way to present a formula, but it's meticulous (I'm guessing you learned it at Hamelman's knee).  Only thing not specified is the hydration of the 50 g of seed, but I'm not nitpicking!  It's in my recipe folder for after Passover baking.  Oh yes, I did buy calonji seeds at my local Indian spice market and tried it on another rye (the Greenstein/Snyder version).  They are spicy little devils--maybe an acquired taste.  Someone has ordered a deli rye without caraway, so maybe they'll enjoy the onion seeds instead. --Joy

louie brown's picture
louie brown

Always interesting to see your latest project, Varda. What's the PeterS steaming method you refer to?

varda's picture
varda

Hi Louie,   See this comment and the ones below it.  Basic idea is to preheat a big cast-iron pan at the same time that you are preheating the stone to higher than your bake temp - I have been doing between 45-60 minutes.    Then load loaves, turn off oven, pour water (8-12 oz) carefully into the pan - avoid steam burns at all costs.   Close oven quickly.    Set timer for 5 minutes.   After 5 minutes - set oven to bake temperature.     There was more discussion on this in another post.    I can't remember who was recommending that oven not be turned off but vents blocked.   I tried that once with a rolled up yoga mat wrapped in towels.   That worked ok but was sort of a pain.   I am just doing the oven turn off method, and that seems to prevent enough of the steam escaping to get a nice burnished crust.   I have also poured in more water in the five minute period if it all boils off before 5 minutes is up.    I use a plastic long-nosed watering can.   I always end up getting some in the pan, and some on the floor of the oven - my technique or equipment could be improved here.    Thanks for commenting. -Varda

bakingbadly's picture
bakingbadly

Charnushka? Never heard of it until now---and I'm very intrigued. I've been learning about different types of herbs and spices, and my interest in them keeps elevating higher and higher. There's just so many I haven't explored.Thank you for sharing your posts, especially on what you learned at the King Arthuer rye class. It's been a pleasure and educational read.Zita
 

varda's picture
varda

about Charnushka other than its multiplicity of names.    So hope you can find it out your way.    And thanks so much for commenting.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

HERE is a link about charnushka.

varda's picture
varda

no link.   Please post.   Thanks.  -Varda

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Lovely Varda! I Never tried a deli Rye before, nor had any caraway with any bread either.

The Spices meat pie looks mouthwatering!

Khalid

varda's picture
varda

Germans would call a Deli Rye white bread.    According to Mr H, you aren't allowed to call anything rye that doesn't have at least 90% rye flour.    But nevertheless it makes a delicious white bread particularly with the Charnushka.    And with John's tips above, I'm hoping to make a new and improved meat pie.    Thanks so much for commenting.   -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Morning Varda,

Well I did my charnuska bake yesterday.  The breads turned out nicely.  I love working with the deli rye formula I use.  The dough has a wonderful texture.  I added the charnuska at .3% as you did but it didn't seem like enough.  I didn't tweak the amount :-)  Didn't get much aroma which I was expecting to get like when i add the caraway.  Only a hint of a peppery aroma when held up close.  I now have to wait to hear from the people I gave loaves to on flavor etc if they get back to me.....

Was fun to give something new a try so I thank you for the inspiration! 

Take Care,

Janet

Pages