The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

SD, YW, Biga, Rye, Spelt, Tang Zhong Bread with Scald, Seeds and Nuts

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dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

SD, YW, Biga, Rye, Spelt, Tang Zhong Bread with Scald, Seeds and Nuts

This bake was similar to the last one with a few additions.  We added some spelt and rye upping the whole grains to 60%.  We upped the water roux another 40% or so because we liked the last bake so much and 40 percent more of fine tasting has to be teeth dropping,.  We added aromatic seeds including coriander, anise, black and brown caraway and fennel.  We also put in some pumpkin and sunflower seeds and some pistachio nuts.

 

Since this bread got larger and more weighty, we decided to make a boule instead of a loaf and hope to be able to turn it out into a round cake pan before putting it into the hot MagnaWare turkey roaster.

  

This bread is even wetter than the last one, in the very high 70’s at least and we didn’t want it to spread out too much so, the cake pan would have been useful to hold the boule together and keep the spread to a minimum but it wouldn't fit.

  

We stuck to the 4 and 40 hour method of the last bake hoping the extra whole grains wouldn’t cause the loaf to ferment too much in the fridge.  After 24 hours it looked fine so we cross our fingers and hope that it will hold up after the last loaf over proofed.

  

This time we will bake this bread cold out of the fridge hoping to catch it before this one can over proof.  Since we had so much add ins to incorporate, we divided them into 3 separate adds – one for each S&F.  The scald went in first followed by the aromatic seeds and then by the rest of the seeds and pistachios all 15 minutes apart.

 

Also trying to keep the bread from over proofing, instead of an hour of ferment on the counter after S&F’s and  after shaping we cut these down to 30 minutes each.  And instead of S&F’s this dough was so wet we did French swlap and folds to incorporate the add ins instead.  It is really weird to have an apprentice speaking French with a German accent.

The bread un-molded easily onto parchment that was lowered after a quick T-Rex slash into a cold aluminum DO.  The DO was placed into a cold oven that was set for 450 F.  When the beeper went off (about 20 minutes later), saying the oven was at temperature, we set the timer for 25 minutes of steaming woth the lid on. 

After 25 minutes we took the lid off and turned the oven down to 425 F convection this time.  5 minutes later we took the bread out of the CO and placed it on the stone where it hit 205 F on the inside in 6 minutes.  Total time in the oven cold and hot was right at 56 minutes. 

We let the boule crisp on the stone in an off oven with the door ajar for 10 minutes.  Can’t wait to cut into this bread because the smell off the aromatic seeds is quite nice and near intoxicating.  I was hoping to wait 24 hours to cut this bread open but ……

Sadly, this bread also had little spring and bloom but it didn’t collapse either – just like the last bake.  It may be that the 40 hour retard is too much when using a YW and SD levain in conjunction with a biga and Tang Zhong.  That is the great thing about bread.  With a baseline established there is no telling what might be possible.

Janet's mash with the whole multi-grains and 3 yeast boosters, seeds nuts and scald really made this bread taste fantastic.  If you were stranded on an island this is the bread you would want to take with you.  I thought the last batch was tasty but this puts it to shame. the aromatic seeds really put it over the top.  The crumb isn't as open as the last bake but this one is more glossy and it has way more whole grains that we love so much.  My apprentice finds it much more difficult to eat holes anyway.... and this bread is plenty airy enough as it is.

Formula

Starter Build

Build 1

Build 2

Total

%

WWW & AP SD Starter

10

 

10

1.83%

White Whole Wheat

62.5

 

62.5

11.42%

Spelt

0

30

30

5.48%

Dark Rye

0

30

30

5.48%

AP

62.5

 

62.5

11.42%

Yeast Water

75

 

75

13.70%

Water

50

 

50

9.13%

Total

185

60

320

20.09%

 

 

 

 

 

SD Starter Totals

 

%

 

 

Flour

172.5

31.51%

 

 

Water

130

23.74%

 

 

Starter Hydration

75.36%

 

 

 

Levain % of Total

24.00%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dough Flour

 

%

 

 

Red Malt

2

0.37%

 

 

Toadies

6

1.10%

 

 

Vital Wheat Gluten

5

0.91%

 

 

White Malt

2

0.37%

 

 

Rye

90

16.44%

 

 

Spelt

90

16.44%

 

 

AP

180

32.88%

 

 

Total Dough Flour

375

68.49%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Salt

9

1.64%

 

 

Dough Soaker Water

245

44.75%

 

 

Dough Hydration w/   Starter

65.33%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scald & Soak

 

%

 

 

Spelt

50

9.13%

 

 

Rye

50

9.13%

 

 

Total Scald & Soak

100

18.26%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Add - Ins

 

%

 

 

Sunflower, Pumpkin 20   ea

40

7.31%

 

 

Pistachio

30

5.48%

 

 

Barley Malt

17

3.11%

 

 

Coriander, Black &   Brown Caraway

15

2.74%

 

 

Anise 5, Fennel 5

10

1.83%

 

 

Tang Zhong

190

34.70%

 

 

Total

302

55.16%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Total Flour w/ Starter

547.5

 

 

 

Total Water w/ Starter

375

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hydration w/ Starter   & Adds

70.05%

 

 

 

Total Weight

1,334

 

 

 

% Whole Grain

60.70%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tang Zhong not included   in hydration calculations includes

 

12.5 g each Spelt and Rye and 10 g Oat w/ 175 g of water

 

 

Comments

isand66's picture
isand66

DA...another nice moist crumb that looks like it would melt in your mouth. A slice of cheese is all you need to have a meal with this one!  I have never tried coriander in a bread before and I know several people have use it in their rye breads and rave about it.  So tell me....with all these pistachio nuts you have been using, you must either have your own tree or they must be on sale at the store.  By me they are very expensive, so I usually reserve them for snacking.

That plate with the guac and other assorted goodies looks fanatastic! 

Thanks for sharing another DA masterpiece.

Working on a YW durum Levain along with a SD durum, sprouted wheat levain for my next bake.

Regards
Ian

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Ian,

A question since I didn't see a comment on your latest blog about reviving your YW after it's terrible and prolonged neglect.  You mention it here so I am correct in assuming that it has forgiven you for your harsh treatment and is happily at work again?  If so, I am curious as to how you did revive it.

Take Care,

Janet

P.S.  Sorry Mr. D.   didn't mean to hijack but I really want to know how his YW experience ended  :-)  I know you are a fan of YW so I figured you would like to know too.....  I hope....

isand66's picture
isand66

Hi Janet,

My YW perked right up after its 3 weeks of non-use.  I simply removed most of the fruit and 3/4's of the YW and refreshed with 1/2 of an apple, a squeeze of agave syrup and filtered water from my fridge.  I gave it a good shake and let it sit out overnight.  Good as new.   I'm building a durum starter now in 3 builds for my next bake which I will mix with a SD durum-whole wheat levain.

Regards,

Ian

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Ian,

Thanks for the update.  Amazing how resiliant this stuff is!!! 

Janer

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

As a further note, I have my YW on a 3 week refresh schedule now a days along with the same refresh with what ever is left over from the SD starter.  I hope to get it up to a month one of these days.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is in the late fall right after harvest time and pistachio trees only produce modest amount every 2 years which makes them expensive.  I buy a bunch already hulled at Sprouts when on sale and freeze them.  Heck they are still $10.99 a pound when om sale and go up about a buck a year it seems. The coolest part about pistachios is that when they crack open you can actually hear it in the grove.  It's like they say 'Pick Me'.  This mix of spices is what some call 'bread spice' and it is mainly used in various combination in some rye breads.  It works just as well in multi-grain bread if you ask me.  I just keep a big mix of it because I use the same spices when I pickle veggies plus about 10 more :-)  It goes fast around here.  Watch the coriander.  I made some bread with too much of it and it makes the bread inedible very quickly.

This bread is assertive on the taste side but delicious.

Your combo YW SD bake sounds like a fun one - look forward too it

 

 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Mr. D,

Those green nuts.....some day they will get me and end up in a loaf here too.... :-)

Despite the fact that your loaf didn't have a lot of spring it still looks very delicious, wholesome and colorful :-) 

As Karin always says 'taste rules' and from your description this is a fine tasting loaf.

Thanks for the post and photos.

Take Care,

Janet

P.S.  A note on the word 'mash'.  Not sure if you followed John's thread when the discussion turned to a discussion on mashes vs scalds vs gelatinizing grains....seems like many words can be used to describe a process that can be similar but varies depending on temps. and HL levels and time.....You mentioned using a mash as I had discussed somewhere, can't recall where, but if it was in relation to the cracked grains I was using last week I can't really call how I cooked them a mash.  Have to categorize what I did as more of a 'gruel'  :-)  ( I do not think that word would be used in a fine bread baking book but I am a mere home baker so it sits right with me :-) I merely ground up the grains and then cooked them like I do steel cut oats.  No attention paid to maintaining a certain temperature and I did let the water boil which kills just about any enzyme in a grain :-(.  It has the consistency of a nice thick bowl of oatmeal when done cooking.  I then ignored them and let the pot sit undisturbed on the stove top all day....Nuttin' fancy there but the resulting bread has gotten high marks from those who have tried it....so 'gruel' bread can be tasty too :-)  But you already know that from the breads you produce!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

close to your 100% whole grain breads.  The last bake I didn't watch the temperature of the water roux but this time we added some oats and watched the temperature carefully so it didn't get over the Tang Zhong 165 F.  Why they chose this temperature I don't know other than to make sure the enzymes were all dead which happens at 157 F.   When I make white malt we keep the temperature at 150 F no more to make sure the enzymes we produced by sprouting are still active.  35 g is a small amount of grain in the water roux so I'm guessing it is the large amount of gelatinized water the TA method is after.  It sure helps make the crumb soft and moist but don't think it does much for the taste .

I'm thinking the 40 hour retard is where the taste part comes in along with the aromatic seeds in this bake.  Oddly, the last 2 bakes, both 40 hour cold proof, which really tasted great didn't spring much - but they didn't collapse either.  Maybe it was the water roux that causes the no spring?  Baking this one cold right out of the fridge, in cold DO and cold oven didn't make much difference except in steaming time. 

Glad you liked this bread and I like the term gruel for your cracked grain mixed mash.

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Mr. D,

The temp. for what I would call a 'mash' and what I have used when making a mash bread has been 165°F which is then held for 3 hours.    My only understanding of this, which is limited, has come from Peter Reinhart's book Whole Grain Breads.  In the book he states that he uses that temp. for bread baking because it kills off the beta-amylase, which will help prevent gumminess during the bake due to starch attack, but leaves the alpha-amylase active.  His ratio for water to flour is 2.5 parts water to 1 part flour.

He also notes that there are 'many variations of these barm and mash methods, each with its own temperature, timing and proportions of grain and water.  Each version yielded different flavors and potencies.'  (p54 WGB)

He also states the 'breads made using this mash have a denser crumb, but they also have a flavor and texture unlike any other: sweeter, moister, and creamier.' (pg55 WGB)

So maybe you aren't getting a lot of spring due to the fact that you are using 2 different gelatinized soakers in one loaf???  Mystery and I guess you can only know by experimenting - which you already know too :-)  Another though provoking puzzle for you and your fine apprentice to contemplate in your lab AKA kitchen in future weeks....

Lots of room to play around in :-)

So much for my knowledge and lack there of on the mystery of mashing....scalding.....gelatinizing

Janet

Skibum's picture
Skibum

 . . . and yet another very intimidating bake! Great looking photos too, your lunch is making me hungry.  Oh well my French Canadian tourtiere is hot out the oven and will have to do for now.

Regards, Brian

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

a good pork and potato pie.  Skip the crust and you could put the meat and potato on this bread instead or line the pie tin with it instead of using short crust pastry :-)  Well, it would be healthier.  Canadians without their poutine and meat pie and is like a skier without snow! 

Glad you liked the post Brian and be safe on the slopes!  My daughter's boyfriend just busted up his shoulder pretty good snowboarding.....

The spell checker said to replace pouitine with Putin as in Vad :-) Got to love these technical marvels :-)

Happy Baking

Skibum's picture
Skibum

. . .so I guess I will finally have to try it :-) Both are typical of Canadian French cuisine and tourtiere, when done properly can be quite sublime and has become my favourite winter comfort food.  A google search will turn up many hits and as every family has a somewhat different recipe most produce a quite authentic pie.

I used 1 lb each lean ground beef & pork, (some use beef & veal) 1 large carrot, celery and onion minced, 4 cloves garlic mashed, 1 lb mushrooms quartered, 2 medium potatos mashed, 11/2 cups beef stock, 2 -3 Tbs tomato paste and seasoned to taste with salt, pepper, cinnamon, nutmet, cloves, bay leaf and thyme.  Preparation was done as coached by Julia Child in, "Mastering the Art of French Cooking," a fabulous book.  I recently added her 50th anninversary addition to my library.  She is very insistent on proper technique, " if you are browning mushrooms, don't crowd them or they will steam rather than brown."  Her tv shows and books have vastly influenced and improved my cooking skills. The filling is prepared, with the mushrooms done separately sauteed in oil & butter, then finished with sherry and added to the rest of the filling.  Place the filling in a pastry shell, top with garlic mashed potatos, top with pastry, cutting slits for steam to escape and bake at 375F for 45 minutes.  Yummm!!!

Sorry to hear about your daaughter's boyfriend.  That has to hurt! I look forward to seeing your next impressive and cahallenging bake!

Regards, Brian

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

sharing your recipe.  It sure sounds delicious.  I think it was Julia Child  who me interested in cooking so many years ago.  Back then French Food in Kansas City was unheard of  or at least very rare and expensive.  There weren't so many French immigrants in Ameroca's heartland that owned French restaurants so Italian food was about all we know of  something different.  Next thing you know Julia had everyone baking French breads, Brioche, puff paste  and beef stew with Burgundy wine. 

Heck, I hear the kids were out snow boarding again last weekend.  When your young, it is only a week from the emergency room to the slopes:-) 

Once again thanks for sharing Brian

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I noticed your recipe "mash" got "tangzhonged!"  Maybe you will end up with a "Tangzhong" t-shirt or apron in the very near future.  

Nice Save!   Looks like a very tasty loaf.  But between you and we,  I'd not turn my back if there were wild creatures walking around near the work bench.  Don't loons fly south for the winter?

Mini

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Tang Zhong (roux in Chinese - 湯種 ) is quite different than Tangzhong ( 湯中) meaning 'soup' according to Google Translate.  But Google Translate is known to do some weird things and be totally wrong much of the time.  I love Janet's term gruel ( 粥 ) for what she makes.  In Google Chinese this supposedly can also mean, depending on some unknown something  - evil spirits acquired badly' which is kind of nice since you wouldn't want to acquire evil spirits well :-)

I made sure my apprentice kept the temperature below 165 F this time.  We couldn't tell any difference in the finished crumb than the last time where she had no idea what temperature she attained with that roux. 

So what caused this bake and the last one to rise OK but not spring or fall in the oven?  It just lays there (布局有) doing nothing ( 无为 .  I think I will get my apprentice an apron that says - She just lays there doing nothing except dreaming she can fly.

  她只是奠定了那里什么都不做,除了做梦,她可以飞

Sometimes Lucy thinks she is a flying loon in her dreams when she isn't dreaming about biting unprotected ankles.

The crumb was still open plenty enough in this bread though and my apprentice will make this fine tasting bread again trying to sort out the no spring thing....... if she isn't too busy flying off to lands far, far away in her dreams of course.   She already said she won't take her master with her on her travels!  Talk about an evil spirit acquired badly!

So why no spring or fall for that matter?

isand66's picture
isand66

DA, I would be interested to see what happens if you follow my method and let the dough bulk ferment in the fridge for about 12-24 hours and then let it sit out for about 1.5 hours before shaping.  Let it proof for another 1.5-2 hours before baking.  I think you may get a bigger oven lift if you tried this method.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

let the dough bulk ferment on the counter after the last S&F before going into the fridge?  Have you bulk fermented this way for 40 hours in the fridge before warming up for 1 1/2 before shaping and then final proof for 1/1/2 - 2 hours final proof?

I've done it your ways for 24 before and it worked great but 40 hours may make some difference.  We will have to give your method a try at 40 hours and see if it works better.  The main problem is that this dough with the water roux feels like around 80% hydration and it doesn't want to be shaped after bulk fermenting on the counter  for an hour before going into the fridge.   Maybe it will shape better  if it is bulk fermented in the fridge for 40 hours first.......We shall have to see! 

isand66's picture
isand66

I normally only let it bulk retrard for about 14 hours but sometimes 24.  I have done it 36 and 48 hours a few times and it usually comes out fine.

Curious to see what will happen when you give it a try.

I await with bated breath!

Ian

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

of ingredients and techniques.  What fearless endeavors!  I must admit to being a bit overwhelmed.  But I have bought some pumpkin seeds to add to the flax, sesame, fennel seeds, rye berries and rye flakes in my pantry.  Now to bake a bread with soakers, that's the next step.  BTW, what is Tang Zhong (a roux, but of what?)?  Very impressive Chinese, I might add.

Joyful

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

how much better Google is a Chinese than I, or my German speaking apprentice, are with bread!  The water roux is where you take 25 g of flour and 5 times that amount (125 g) of water and cook it in a sauce pan like making a roux for gravy, making sure the temperature doesn't go much over 155 F .  Then you take it off the heat when it thickens up, like a thick gravy, cool it off and you can store in the fridge for 12 hours if you want.  Then it goes into the bread with the starter and the autolyse.  It is supposed to make the crumb soft and moist.  It did for my last two bakes but I had yeast water in both of them too which does the same thing.  It's another fun thing to do with bread.

The roux felt like a 100 % hydration, so you might want to take the hydration doe=wn in your dough a little to compensate for 125 g of wet roux.  I am kind of miffed that there wasn't any spring or bloom in the last two bakes and I can't tell if it was the 40 hour retard, roux or some other something that caused it.  At least they didn't fall and they really tasted great.

Don't forget the sprouts too.  We like them more than soakers but both in a bread is the best of both worlds.  Puss you can make red and white malts from 4 day old sprouts:-)

Glad to see you are branching out.  Your soon to be new customers will want some new breads from you after a while!  These techniques, varied ingredients and preparations are nothing more than the tool box variables required for a million different kinds of breads.

Good luck with venture.  You are certainly a good enough baker to make a success of it.

Happy baking

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

the explanations and the words of good cheer.  Still waiting for the mailperson to bring me my permit from the Dept. of Environmental Health (any day now . . .).  Say, have you thought about writing a book?