The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Rewind - YW & SD Semolina, Durum Atta, W. Germ, Malts & Honey - Deja Vue

dabrownman's picture

Rewind - YW & SD Semolina, Durum Atta, W. Germ, Malts & Honey - Deja Vue

After the fiasco of the previous bake still haunting, we decided to give this formula another go to see if we could figure out what caused the explosive proofing in fridge during the last bake.


We decided to cut back on the YW from 75 g to 50 g added 10 g multi-grain SD starter.  But the biggest change was to cut back on the yogurt whey to 46 g from 155 g in the previous bake.


We also omitted the soft white wheat soaker and added some whole grain spelt, rye and WW to the levain flour.  We cut back form 3g to 2g for the malts and reduced the honey from 10 g to 8 g.   The idea was to try to keep this dough in check so that it can get through a 12 hour proofing retard in the refrigerator overnight without expanding out of the proofing basket.


We also switched to a larger basket just in case the dough wasn't muzzled enough with these changes.

The process and method was same as before and you can find it here:

With the exception of not having a soaker to add during the S & F’s, all appeared to be the same as before including putting the shaped dough into the fridge for retard.  I did turn the temperature of the refrigerator down to 36 F from 38 F.


Another over proofing - by a wide margin....................................Another deflating disaster when it stuck to the basket.

At 6:45 the next morning the dough had doubled nicely and was ready for the oven.  We fired  up the mini oven to500 Fand got Sylvia’s Mini Steam ready, (2) Pyrex cups with a dish rag half full of water placed into a microwave until they boil.  We were waiting for the mini to beep that it was ready and was watching Isaac, on the weather channel………..when all the plans of furry baking apprentices everywhere changed in an instant. 

I heard a small crash and my wife began calling; ‘come here quick’. So we did - slowly -  to show a bit of hysterical calmness usually associated with manic depression resulting from a freezer.

My poor wife, who had to witness this calamity first hand, was trying to get the water bottles out of the fridge for her work cooler, when she said something odd happened.   The basket of beautifully risen dough,  covered in trash can liner, just jumped right off of the top shelf of the fridge, did a flip with a half twist in mid air and landed upside down  and cockeyed on the tile kitchen floor. 


Needless to say, all was lost, the bread was ruined – a classic ‘Death by Deflation’ if there ever was one that turned into a #2 before you could shake a stick at it.  Thank goodness the plastic wrapper stayed intact saving my apprentice another difficult clean up licking the floor. 

Not wanting to give up after the last bake’s fiasco that this new fiasco was supposed to fix and  realizing that I am under no obligation to supply her with room and board, my apprentice a sprang into action to try and save the day and this ugly mass of doggone, dead dough.

She mixed 50 g each of durum atta and bread flour and added 100 g of AP flour and 5 g of VWG to it.  She dumped 150 g of water and mixed it up furiously by paw to make a paste while totally forgetting to add additional salt - I mean, she’s only an apprentice for heaven’s sake. 

She then spread out the original deflated dough into a rough12”square about an inch thick and spread this new flour and water mix over it.  She then used stretch and folds to enclose the new mix and started kneading until everything was well incorporated and the dough began to feel like it was back to its well developed gluten self.  The two paws poked into the dough sprang back quickly to confirm her properly kneaded thoughts.

A nice chicken and Colby jack cheese sandwich, lettuce and tomato - poblano on top, with a salad that has brie and red and yellow peppers crowning, black grapes, canteloupe slice, 3 kinds of pickles, 2 kinds of plumbs and my favorite mango,.

It was then placed into the basket seam side up again, encapsulated in the saving plastic trash can liner and allowed to proof for another 90 minutes on the counter.  Then back into the fridge it went where it could take another high dive onto the floor to commit Hare Kari again if it wished.

Will this deceptive dough dispel and disregard the dreaded and despicable’ Death by Deflation’ discipline and decide, in total delirium, to become bread this time?  ‘Don’t dare declare!!!’ she spat, pointing a paw at me, as my apprentice growled menacingly and stomped off for her morning nap.   Now we await the devil dough coming out of the fridge again and pray this curse doesn't come in threes.  Until later.........

Well, well, well, the devil dough decided to over proof again by tripling in the fridge and then stick itself to the basket and deflate inappropriately as we tried to coax it out of its sticky home.  Just a couple of more and more disasters in a long line of disasters for this and the last bake.  Just gave up, slashed it wickedly and tossed it in the belly of Big Betsy.

It baked up pretty and golden, sprang back some if still ma lot flatter than it would have been had it not stuck to the basket.  It also smells tremendous.  We will have to wait for the crumb which suffered the most.  Fingers crossed.

The crumb came out much like the last one that was also stricken by mooshing (a bakery term that means mashed horribly).  More open then we thought it would be, beautifully yellow, airy and moist with no big holes like it should have had.  Since it has no seeds or soak my wife will love this for her sandwich bread.  It is more deeply flavored due to the whole spelt, rye and wheat berries we ground up for the dough flour.  A nice bread no matter how hard we tried to mess it up. 

30% Whole Grain YW & SD Semolina, Durum Atta with Germ, Malts & Honey    
Mixed StarterBuild 1Build 2Total        %
Multi-grain SD Starter **30030      3.70%
Whole Spelt010101.70%
Whole Soft White Wheat050507.96%
Whole Rye010101.59%
Wheat Germ0881.27%
Whole Wheat010101.59%
Durum Atta500507.96%
Total Starter14215429647.13%
** 10 g each Rye Sour, Desem & Multi-Grain  
Levain % of Total24.37%   
Dough Flour        %  
Non - Diastatic Red  Malt2       0.32%  
Semolina124      19.75%  
AP300      47.77%  
Diastatic White Malt2       0.32%  
Bread Flour150      23.89%  
Dough Flour628     100.00%  
Salt8       1.27%  
Yogurt Whey - 46, Water - 219425      67.68%  
Dough Hydration67.68%   
Total Flour811   
T. Dough Hydration72.50%   
Whole Grain %29.22%   
Hydration w/ Adds72.55%   
Total Weight1,420   
Add ins          %  
Honey8         1.27%  
VW Gluten50.80%  


isand66's picture

Something is rotten in Denmark I do declare!  That dough of yours is determined to escape the confines of your refrigerator.....sounds like your refrigerator maybe jealous of your mini me oven!  

I look forward to hearing how your maniacal bread turns out.


dabrownman's picture

bread has more evil twists and turns than the mountain roads Thomas rides his bike on in CO.  Oddly, as Michael said it baked up better than expected with the detriment to large holes only - just like before.  But we did solve the explosion during proof in the fridge.  Janet was right.  It has to be the large amount protein rich whey water we used originally.

It looks very nice from the outside and the inside.   This is a bread my wife will like for her daily lunch sandwiches.

I'm calling this one a draw and the last one an episode to really make a baker blame his apprentice for the failure.

Both taste great though and that is the real deal. 

gmabaking's picture

bakers can usually still enjoy their mistakes unlike the old saw about doctors burying theirs and architects just planting vines. Before anyone gets insulted, I plead sympathy because for the first time ever I threw out two loaves of bread dough! Tried a couple of online one loaf recipes and both failed to rise to expectations as it were. Luckily I didn't think to use whey in them although that may have helped but at least I have it to work with this morning. Enough complaining, where is my apprentice and the flour? No adventures today--except to try whey in a Silverton recipe.

For all the turmoil though this is a very nice looking bread and must be filled with a rich flavor!

mwilson's picture

Sounds like you're having some fun there! When one thing goes wrong often it causes an avalanche of problems...

Sometimes the oven can work wonders though... fingers crossed for you :)


dabrownman's picture

golden and pretty if a little squished.  Will have to wait on the crumb till it cools.  At least we solved the explosive proofing in the fridge problem..  The oven worked wonders on the outside.  Fingers crossed on the inside.

Janetcook's picture

Dear Mr. D,

Darn, dreaded disasters do descend deceitfully down upon your dwelling at a devastating rate.  Brings to mind the devilish tricks one hears about those fiendish depredators - poltergeist.  I suspect they are wanting a loaf of your fine bread and may continue to misuse your house until they are satisfied....

When I was reading this I couldn't help but recall the many hours my oldest son would spend listening to a series of books (Hank the Cow Dog) on our front couch.  Brough back fond memories.  Perhaps you can scribe a book with your helpful apprentice?  You two certainly have the adventures that I can only imagine would delight readers.  I have noted that you are as talented a writer as you are a creative baker and it is apparent that both bring you great pleasure.

Thanks for the wonderful tale of this latest loaf of yours. I am glad to see that persistence has paid off!

Take Care,


dabrownman's picture

The cutting back of the whey water seemed to help a lot, even though the 2 nd bake was overproofed too.  This bread you can't just chuck into the fridge, go run some errands or do some day trading and expect it to behave.  It really wants to puff up.

Now that I have most of the recipes done for my cook book, maybe we will write some prose to go with it as we photograph the recipes when we cook them.  I have an idea along those lines.  The cook book was for my daughter at her request so maybe I will recount some of the horrors of my autobiography from the Ozark Mountains, growing up in Topeka and Raytown, MO., flunking out of college,  2 tours in Nam, finally gradutating from architectural school and then traveling the world building buildings and then getting into the food distribution business.  There are so many things that she doesn't know about but she is a college girl who doesn't even know what she doesn't know - just like me  :-)  Sadly, my apprentice seems to be all paws when it comes to typing.    Wish the last couple of bread tales were better to tell :-)

Glad you like the posts,  Colorado is one of few places we have lived several times - and would live there again.  You are so lucky to have great mountains to call your home - and there are too few great things in the world.


Janetcook's picture

I do think tossing in autobiographical tidbits is a grand idea.  I have a daughter in college now too - just 2 weeks in mind you - and it is a bit exasperating trying to instill a sense of history - personal or otherwise - into her driven brain.  Just goes with the territory and the age.  If they knew what we know now how would they ever survive what is in store for them....luckily the wonderful outweighs the horrible but that is for her to discover and I just get to sit back and take it all in.  

I hope that our adventures with baking will be remembered by them so they know that learning is a life long endeavor and is a truly enjoyable activity when not being graded. (I think of this latest bake of yours and if it would have recieved a F for failure....Hardly, because look what the result was with a little bit on inguinity and effort....and look at all you learned in the process....One of my favorite saying is 'If you don't make mistakes you don't make anything' and it is posted on my refrig. so it gets looked at often....hopefully those words have had some sort of impact but only time will tell....

I can't help but think that when your daughter gets older a cook book with your stories would become a treasured item in her home.  One that she would grow into as she moves on in her  own life.

Yes, I am indeed very fortunate to live where we do and I know it too :-)  I grew up in San Francisco so I have a deep appreciation for sunshine though I could do with fewer 90° days which we have had an abundance of this summer!  (I dare not complain because who knows what sort of temps the coming winter will hold and I know when the mercury dips below 0° my mind will conjure up memories of summer warmth and will soon be complaining about the mind seems to love to find things to complain about  and most of the things are ones that nothing can be done about so it is futile yet it persists in its lamentations....:-)



dabrownman's picture

We loved Denver,  hardly ever got cold or snowed and hardly ever got hot and rained.  It wasn't San Diego comfort with the ocean but SD doesn't have the great mountains to hike in.

Yoda knew that trying wasn't enough and doesn't make a difference - you must do instead.  When you do a lot of things you fail often, especially when experience is still far ahead of.  Fear of failing is what can keep people from, even trying to do.  Their pride and ego can get in the way to stop them to .  What if others see them fail?  Very hard on that pride and ego when others see you fail so miserably and we can't have others see that - so they don't even try to do.  People without fear, pride and ego try more, fail way more often than others but they don't care because they know well that failure sometimes is the only path to success.  If they didn't fail they would never have said to themselves, 'Gosh, if I would have only done that instead' and then they go do it and are successful. 

The only three things that I know of that lead to final and complete failure are; fear, pride and ego.  Avoid them at all costs.  Enjoy the quest of failing often, learning from the errors and mistakes, and doing way, way more than others as a result.  It is the doing that counts.

Janetcook's picture


:-)  Yes, indeed and unfortunately most of us have to live a long time before his sage words really penetrate our well constructed illusions.


dabrownman's picture

for a mythical supposed 800 year old alien creature, and Jedi, that won't even be born for another 2,200 years.  I'm guessing there still won't be any Jedi alive even then and if there are not one as wise or feisty.

Mebake's picture

What an unfortunate thing to happen to a well risen, well tended dough , DA.

Look at the bright side, your skills and expertise are ever improving, also ,this incidence isn't of your making. Besides, you have the time to recreat the bread once more in a short notice, while i would have waited for the next weekend bake.



dabrownman's picture

allows you to do what ever you want when every you want if you are very well off.  The rest of us get to try to fix out bread mistakes in quick order :-)  I think Mini is right - it ended up over proofed.  This bread was perfect proof wise before it fell on the floor and the recovery effort  got over proofed very quickly while it was in the fridge and I was doing some day trading and paying close attention.

My bread making skills get better with practice and knowing the dough improves as well.   I should put the dough in another dry basket with rice flour but just chucked it into the one it proofed in the fridge - one that was wet and not properly refloured.  It was also the first time we had used this particular basket and they tend to be finicky anyway.

The bread turned out OK once again anyway and will look forward nto the enxt bake what ever t is.

Thanks for your comments Khalid.  Looking forword to your next bake.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and then again risen, it has proofed too far.  Some of the basket should be visible for double.  It has more than tripled.  Maybe it can, but I wouldn't let it get that far.  I know this is a comedy of errors so I just want newbies to see that letting the dough rise this much in a basket is not good.  It is better to re-shape and let it rise again should it rise more than double.    

I would to encourage you to investigate the addition of spelt into the dough.  I think the true "steroid ingredient" here.  Seems like every time I include spelt the rises tend to get out of control and it works like a dough enhancer to soften crumb and give extensibility to the gluten matrix to the point of weakness if allowed to extend too far.  

dabrownman's picture

This bread doubled in 2 hours after it went into the fridge just like the first one exploded.   The first one didn'thave any spelt in it.   Sadly, the dough that ended up on the floor, had proofed properly overnight and had only just doubled.  I don't know if it is just this dough with YW and SD starter, whey water or spelt now, that causes it to take off in the fridge when it should slow down some and allow one to do something besides babysitting dough else for a while.

I think it is good to post both successes, failures and mishaps.  As you point out, newbies can learn from the photos that show the dough was clearly over proofed and what happens if you reuse baskets before they dry out and don't flour them well enough.     They can also take heart that they aren't the only ones having trials and tribulations but, these can usually be mitigated somewhat when things appear lost and that errors now.will lead to better bread skills, and better bread later.  This is why we post all our bakes, good  and bad.

I'll go fix the prose to point out the over proofing.  One thing is for sure, if anyone make this fine bread, they better watch it closely :-) 

joyfulbaker's picture

How interesting to read your comment about spelt on "steroids."  The other day, I baked challah with about 15% freshly purchased (in bulk) whole-grain spelt, and it proofed to beat the band--and baked up hugely and richly colored (egg wash helped that).  I also had some old w/g spelt lying around and used it a couple of challahs ago (that's 2 weeks ago), and it had a slightly bitter taste, to my tongue at least.  I keep the whole-grain flours bought in bulk in the fridge, but this bag was probably 4 or 5 months old.  So I think I'll start dating the bags from the bulk bins.  But--I do love the nutty flavor the spelt brings to the loaf.


dabrownman's picture

The entire post has disappeared after showing up as new - from August 2012  Hope it is not gone forever :-0

Floydm's picture

Nope, not lost, I was using it as the test case to figure out what the deal was with some of the old posts that have been getting blanked out. Hence the "new": I was editing it and saving it with a few configuration changes... no content changes, I promise.  

The good news is -- knock on wood -- I think I nailed the problem.  Whew!  Please let me know if you spot any older posts that should be there that appear empty now.  


dabrownman's picture

but glad; to bring more work your way and that you are endeavoring to persevere :-)  I just noticed that my google spell check no longer works when I post here now.