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Syd's Asian Style Pain de Mie Plus Bonus Rye Malt

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varda's picture
varda

Syd's Asian Style Pain de Mie Plus Bonus Rye Malt

I have been making the same loaf of bread since Sunday and it's not even sourdough.   It is my first Pain de Mie, using the formula that Syd posted here.    Usually when people tell me what a lot of work it must be to make bread, I say it doesn't take much time or effort - mostly you let the dough do the work.   That does not hold for this bread.   Syd's instructions say to work this dough until it either has a gossamer windowpane, or your arms cramp up.   Since my arms never cramped up even though they were (and still are) extremely tired, I worked the dough with a few short breaks for an hour and 10 minutes.   No gym today.   In theory I could have used my Kitchen Aid stand mixer.   In practice it would probably have been the last time I used it.   

Since I have never made/bought/eaten this type of bread before I have no idea if it came out the way it should.  

I will say it's the most flavorful white bread I've ever tasted.  

A few baking notes:

The third day of the formula, or baking day, calls for "whole egg 140g."   I thought maybe ostrich egg?    I clicked through to the site that Syd referenced hoping for some clarification.  Unfortunately I can't read Chinese characters so no help there.   I ended up putting in 3 medium eggs which came to 156g.   Comparing my crumb to Syd's his seems to be a lot whiter, so that may have been incorrect.  

Update:   Syd's instructions call for heating the milk for the first mix (the water roux) but not for the next two.   I scalded for each of these because that's just what I do, but didn't know if it was necessary or not.  

During mixing, the dough stayed fragile until around 40 minutes.    At around 50 minutes it seemed to be getting stronger and silkier.   I went back to the Chinese site to see if they had any pictures of what it should look like.   They did.   I wasn't there yet so I kept going until an hour and ten minutes, at which point it was strong enough to twirl around like a pizza.   

Syd didn't mention steam, and I wasn't sure if that is called for in this type of bread.   Google translate was no help.   I finally decided to do steam for the first 15 minutes.   I baked one slightly smaller loaf in a pyrex bread pan (5 x 9 x 2.5 inches) and the second in my short Pullman (4 x 9 x 4).   Since I was reasonably sure that I wouldn't repeat the disaster of a few days ago where my attempt at a second Borodinsky went very wrong, I decided to cover the Pullman.   It didn't overflow.   It did reach the top.   My first success in covered Pullman baking.   I baked the Pyrex loaf at 356F (180C) for 35 minutes and the Pullman loaf for 40.   Could probably have baked each longer, but I didn't want to push it.   These aren't supposed to be crusty loaves after all, given that Pain de Mie seems to mean Crumb Bread.   (Sounds better in French.)  

Update:  I divided dough as 956g of dough into the Pullman and 820g into the Pyrex. 

So I have now baked an Asian Pain de Mie or a facsimile thereof.   Wonder how a French Pain de Mie would differ.   Just about everything I'm doing here is new to me.  I have certainly never hand-worked dough for over an hour before - maximum maybe 25 minutes.   Any suggestions for improvements are decidedly welcome.  

Oh, and incidentally this is either the 4th or 5th of Syd's formulas that I have tried, or around half of the number posted.   More please!  They are most interesting and excellent.

Bonus Rye Malt

In my efforts to make a second Borodinsky more authentic than the first, I took Janet's suggestion to make Rye Malt.  While I did find a few detailed suggestions on the web for how to do this, I still found it confusing, so I hope these documented steps will be helpful.

Step 1:   Find rye berries.   --- I found them at a food co-op in Cambridge MA which seemed to have bulk berries of many different varieties.  

Step 2:   Soak for 5 hours  --- I only soaked 60g worth because I didn't know what I was doing

Step 3:  Drain, rinse, and then keep moist while the berries sprout.   In the picture below they are just starting to sprout around 16 hours after soaking is complete.   I placed a wet paper towel on top of the berries, and had to remoisten it a few times.  

Step 4:  Put on a baking tray to dry out in the oven.    The picture at the top of the post where the berries are fully sprouted was taken 23 hours after the one above.

Step 5:   Dry out at very low heat for around 2 hours.   I kept the oven between 100F and 200F by acting as the oven thermostat. 

Step 6:   Grind them up.  I used a coffee grinder.

It's certainly not red.   I have no idea if it's Borodinsky appropriate.   But I will say that my Borodinsky didn't fail because of the malt.  

Comments

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Varda, your pan de mie looks great! My arms start to ache just by reading this!

What temperature did you mainly use to dry / roast the malt?

If you are too low the enzymes in your malt might still be intact (diastatic malt).

You get darker malts at up to 320F

Juergen

 

varda's picture
varda

I set the oven temp to 170F which is the lowest it goes, then turned it off when it reached 120F for 15 minutes.   After 5 minutes of the oven being off it was at 145F so it kept going up a  little.   After 15 minutes, I turned it on again - repeating process three times.   Then I turned it on again and let it reach 170F.   Then turned it off and left the house for around 1.5 hours.   I was going for non-diastatic malt.   I had heard that 130F was the cutoff, and I think I was above that for at least some of this time.    So if I increase temperature, I will get a darker malt.  Should have thought of that.   I will try that next time.   As for my workout, it was pretty intense, and I'm pretty tired.   I guess I don't have baker's biceps.   Thanks for your comments.   -Varda

Franko's picture
Franko

Hi Varda,

It sounds like it was quite a workout, but your results show it was time well spent. The colour of the crumb, whether it's correct or not, looks great to me, with it's soft, buttery shade of yellow. The texture of the crumb and the rich formula tells me this bread, at least in our house, would be used almost entirely for toasting, or for French Toast. Super looking loaf Varda! Syd has some terrific recipes, and his procedural notes are excellent. One of my faves for sure.

Good on you for roasting your own malt for the Borodinsky. I was on the verge of doing the same for my own Borodinsky project when breadsong kindly shared some she'd picked up in Vancouver, not that it helped my own 1st attempt at it either. If I run across anything that I think might be useful/helpful to you during my own learning curve with this bread, I'll be sure to pass it on to you.

All the best,

Franko

varda's picture
varda

Franko,  You are so right.   Must make french toast tomorrow!   Thanks so much for your comments about the bread.   As for the rye malt, it did have quite a strong malty aroma so I felt I was on the right track.   Perhaps higher temperature roasting as Juergen suggests is called for.   Even if I hadn't overfilled my Pullman pan which caused my Borodinsky loaf to compress at the top and turned around an inch at the top of the loaf into some sort of awful raw paste despite hours of baking,  the  freshly ground coriander totally overwhelmed every other flavor.  I put in less than Andy's formula suggested, but half of what I used would have been more than sufficient.    Probably a difference in the potency of the particular seeds.   I am certainly interested in whatever you learn about Borodinsky and look forward to hearing about your explorations.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Varda,

I loved your write up :-)

The loaves look perfect to me and I figure if you start baking these every week you can simply forgo the gym and we will look for you on the Ms. Universe channel :-)  If such a thing exists.

Or - use the mixer instead...that's what I do when I need a really developed dough.  I have a DLX and it doesn't mind the work out a bit.  :-)  A good autolyze prior to kneading helps a lot...

Great job with your rye malt.  I agree with Juergen that what you have is diastatic malt due to your low temps.  Really easy to remedy.  Just toss it into a hotter oven and let it brown up.  Watch it like a hawk as it will burn up really quickly since it is powder form.  Stir it occasionally too.

Can't remember if I added this link for you but it is one of my favorites.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HauYECAEQ8I

Thanks for the post and your wonderful write up :-)

Take Care,

Janet

varda's picture
varda

I think the consensus is that I need to roast the rye at higher temperatures.   I only made a little bit this time, and used it all so this will be for next time.   Thanks for the link and the encouragement.  

If you go back and read the instructions from Syd,  you will see that less than 30% of the flour for the Pain de Mie goes into the mix on the day of baking.   Most of the flour has been mixed two and three days prior and then refrigerated, so I don't know that autolysing the remaining amount would do much good.   Further ALL the liquid in this bread is milk, egg, and butter.   I started out mixing in my KA, and quit very quickly as the motor was whining and I thought I was starting to get a whiff of fried metal.   This is 2K of stiff, rich dough.   My KA tops out at around 1K.   So hand mix it was.   Syd was very clear about this - labeling this bread "labor intensive."    And so it is. 

-Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Varda,

I missed the details because I did not refer back to Sid's instructions.....I get lost easily :-0.

Thanks for pointing me in the correct direction....my pace....one step at a time :-)

I am heading over there now...

Take Care,

Janet

varda's picture
varda

I wasn't trying to give you homework.  I know you have enough on your plate.   Just trying to explain my mild skepticism about whether autolyse would help or not.   I saw your nice pretzels on another thread.   They look great!  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Varda,

It would have helped if I had read the procedure before commenting.....

I have just read through it all and I retract my statement about an autolyze with the final dough and here is why:

Syd's procedure is very similar to Peter Reinhart's epoxy method as demonstrated in his Whole Grain Breads.

He uses a soaker, which would be similar to the roux you mixed up, and a biga, which is very similar to the second dough. In most of his  final dough's he adds about 12% of the remaining flour and no liquid except in the form of butter or honey.

The following link is one of Hanseata's blogs where she has his method all written out so you can get a better idea of what I am trying to say about his 2 pre-doughs.  PR's timing and procedure vary from yours but at least you can get an idea of how their methods are somewhat similar.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18406/leinsamenbrot-german-flaxseed-bread

To add an autolyze with the final dough just wouldn't work as so much of the dough has already developed it's gluten. (Is this true?  Can you feel it's strength?  From the photo of the second stage dough it looks pretty developed by looks can be deceptive...)  I imagine that is why the final dough takes so long to come together.  Trying to incorporate extra ingredients into a dough that is already pretty strong is work....Something I don't have to tell you :-)

I am glad you brought this bread to my attention.  It is very interesting due to the procedure and I can't help but wonder why all the 'down' time for the dough???  Syd's post didn't say why so you probably don't know either.  So many times recipes come to us that people use and have been written up in such a way as to fit into their life styles. I am wondering if this is one of those situations or if it has to do with flavor/texture issues.  It is almost like a sd Panettone dough process....Certainly a lot of work for a loaf of bread!  What better place to tempt people into giving a loaf like this a try then here on TFL...

On that note...I will include it on my 'to bake' list but I will do the final mix with my DLX.....  I love a new challenge and learning new methods.

I will let you know how mine turns out when I get to it.

Thanks again for the post!

Take Care,

Janet

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

This WB sure looks a lot like Akiko's YW white sandwich bread in crust and crumb - it has and egg yolk and no hours of kneading.   I think I will try to make some rye malt based on your experience.  No sense buying it if you can make it.  W=Do you know what makes red rye malt? 

varda's picture
varda

Hi DA,   I went back and looked at Akiko's loaf.   They do look similar on the outside, but if you look at the crumb and read the formulas, I think you'll see that they are quite different styles of bread.   I haven't tried hers, but may some time.   I have yeast water in my refrigerator and rarely seem to get the results I am looking for.   But the few times I have keep me going.    See some of the other comments regarding red malt.    They know more than I do.   Thanks for commenting.  -Varda

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hi Varda,
What a perfect slice of pain de mie, topped with a perfect pat of butter...!
Regarding hand-mixing, as Janet noted re: autolyse, I've been giving the flour some soaking time and this seems to give gluten development a good head start for hand-mixing.
I really do appreciate you posting your tips on malting rye, and thanks to Janet and Juergen for their helpful comments, too.
:^) breadsong

varda's picture
varda

I think this bread is what Txfarmer would call shreddably soft.    The way this formula works is you mix 70g of flour with the other ingredients (no water, milk only) on the first day and refrigerate for 16 hours, then add in 700g of flour with the other ingredients and refrigerate for 48 hours, then on the final day 300g more flour and more milk and egg.   So do you think that autolysing that last amount in the milk would help?    This is way outside of my experience  so I really don't know.    Thanks so much for your comments.   I see from Franko that you have been able to source red malt.   Have you baked with it?   -Varda

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hi Varda,
I just looked at Syd's method again and am reminded of the second mix and refrigeration period. So, I think that length of time should do it for soaking most of the flour. I made Syd's Hot Cross Bun formula using his Pain de Mie dough last year, too, and still didn't recall how the dough came together before writing to you about autolyse ;^)
I was thinking about the milk in the dough, as the main source of hydration. Did you use liquid milk? I read something awhile back in a Bread Bakers Guild article, written by Jeff Yankellow, where he discussed the need to heat milk to deactivate enzymes/denature proteins as these have a weakening effect on gluten. He noted if using water and milk powder in place of liquid milk, the dried milk powder has "already been subjected to high enough temperatures to achieve the same results".
I hand-mixed this Pain de Mie dough last year when I made Syd's Hot Cross Buns and it did take a long time to mix...
I hope to make them again this spring (*loved them!*) and will take note of the mixing time (I will use milk powder/water and see how it goes).
Re: malt, I found some different types of barley malt, but none of them that nice, red color. I haven't baked with any of them, but hopefully in a couple of week's time.
:^) breadsong

varda's picture
varda

Ah, so you've made this dough.   I did scald the milk for the last two mixes.   Syd didn't include that (his instructions call for heating the milk the first time for the water roux) and I'm guessing he didn't, and his came out fantastic.   I have read both sides of this - that you have to scald and that you don't have to scald, so I'm just confused about it.   I'm going to update my post to include this.   Will love to see your Hot Cross Buns if you make them again.    And of course am curious about your experiences with malt.  -Varda

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Varda,

What lovely Pain de Mie!   I wonder if the difference in colour you noted is down to different ash content in the flour you used and in Syd's flour?

Breadsong's advice to autolyse is very sound.   This will enable gluten development to begin, and cut down your mixing time too.   Maybe you could then achieve final mixing in your machine?   Obviously be sure to avoid burning out the motor, or excess frictional heat rise in your dough.

For the Borodinsky, I calculate your pan is 69% of the volume of mine, so your scaling weight should be c.1300g.   It sounds like you had too much paste in the pan.

The malt looks under-roasted to me.   Nico may be worth asking for more advice, but Red Rye malt has a colour very similar to what UK brewers know as "Crystal" malt.   There is a photo of some barley malt powder of that grade here:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/24237/celebrating-rye-breads

Both rye malt and my organic Blackstrap molasses are fully flavoured, and I do like a generous amount of coriander too.   But if the flavour balance is wrong for you, then it needs to be adjusted to your taste, and to take account we use different sources of ingredients.

Good luck with the Borodinsky; it's horrible when it doesn't turn out, but you seem close to cracking this to me.

And, enjoy your lovely Pain de Mie in the meantime

Very best wishes

Andy

varda's picture
varda

Hi Andy,   Don't know about the ash content.   I suspect that I put in more egg than I should have.   I was hoping Syd would clarify.   The bread tastes somewhat like Challah which is the only other bread that I've eaten with a significant amount of egg in it.   (But of course completely different than Challah in every other way.)    See my questions to Breadsong on the Autolyse.   72% of this dough is prefermented two or three days in advance, so I'm not sure how much of a difference an autolyse on the remaining 28% would make.   But even if a small difference would help with this much work.   I'm sure with your Hobart, that this would not require hand mixing.   Unfortunately I just have a small 10 year old KA that my husband keeps taking apart to "fix" it.    This dough would have put the final nail in the coffin.   Thanks so much for your comments on the Borodinsky.   There was some logic on my scaling for my last loaf.   It was just incorrect.   For my first try, I scaled to 40% of your formula and the pan wasn't even half full at the end, so the second time I scaled to 80%.   Shortly after I put the loaf in the oven I had second thoughts, and I sat down and calculated 9/13 = .69 as you say which is the ratio of our pullmans.   I ran to the oven and pulled off the lid but it was too late.   Ah well.   I'm sure that if I had a slice of your borodinsky, that I wouldn't turn up my nose and say "Oh, too much coriander."   I would probably just think I'd died and gone to heaven.   But as you say, you have to get the right balance of the ingredients you do have, and with my underroasted malt, and (undoubtedly) weaker molasses, that probably explains it.   Your formula calls for 10g.   I scaled to 80% and put in 6 (rather than 8) grams.   Next time I'll scale to 69% and put in 2 or 3 grams and probably be happy.  Thanks so much for your comments.  -Varda

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Varda. It seems to have a mildly spongy consistence that I really strive for when doing this kind of breads.

I agree with Andy that the malt you obtained was under-roasted. To me it looks like having the color of a base malt. Red malt is -you bet- really reddish, very much like paprika powder. I still have some at home, I'll take a picture if you wish.

varda's picture
varda

Hi Nico,   This bread is very spongy.   And that's strangely a good thing.   Not usually the effect I'm trying to achieve.    I would love to see a picture of your red malt.   Did you make it or buy it?   Is there a difference in the type of rye that creates the red color, or is it only the amount of roasting?    Thanks so much.  -Varda

Syd's picture
Syd

Varda, your pain de mie is superb!  Perfect crumb structure for this type of loaf.  It looks moist and with a 'spring' to it, too.

Your colour is spot on.  I looked back at my post and realized that picture is too white.  It is a white balance issue.  I am afraid I don't have a very good camera: it is a 1 (0r two, I can't remember) megapixel video camera that I take stills with.  The camera invariably makes everything look too yellow and then I have to try and correct it with a photo editor.  It is a bit of a hit and miss affair, but I am learning.

One hour and ten minutes!  I am impressed.  You must have been exhausted.  I think I have kneaded this loaf for 35 mins (maybe slightly more) but certainly not for an hour!  Way to go girl!

No, the original recipe doesn't say to steam.  These types of loaves are baked at lower temperatures than hearth breads and don't need steaming. They are usually baked in closed Pullman pans.  I usually divide the dough into three and bake one in a covered Pullman and the other two uncovered pans.

I thought maybe ostrich egg? 

Ha! Ha! Not quite!  It just means 140g of whole egg (i.e. yolk plus white).  That is about the weight of three standard eggs.  I crack three eggs into a bowl, weigh them, lightly whisk to homogenize, and then pour off the excess if there is any. I suppose you could add it to your scrambled eggs if you were just happening to be making some at the same time.  Unlikely, but possible.  Or if it were just a matter of a few extra grams, by all means just toss them in.  It won't make that much of a difference. 

As for the rye malt, I make my own diastatic malt on a regular basis.  I learned a lot from Mini Oven in this thread.  Here is another link to a YouTube video which shows how to make non-diastatic malt.  It is worth listening to for the soundtrack alone.  He recommends first roasting at a low temp of 50C so as not to destroy the enzymes.  This takes about 24 hours.  This is how I always do it.  At this point I grind it up and store it,  but seeing as he is making beer out if it, he roasts again for another 2 hours at 100C.  He says this is suitable for a pale lager malt.  You would perhaps either want to crank up the heat a bit more or leave it in for a bit longer on the second roasting.  Anyway, just something else to consider. 

I am sure the pain de mie would make great French toast.  It works very well with marmalade (preferably a slightly bitter one made from seville oranges) and a cup of tea.  :)

 Best,

Syd

varda's picture
varda

Hi Syd,  Thanks so much for the various clarifications.   Now I see what you were saying about the eggs.   Of course I should have mixed first and put in 140g of the egg (I usually just microwave whatever is left for a few seconds and have it as a little snack as I can't stand to waste) but I was being lazy, which is ironic considering that I then went on to mix for over an hour.    I see it was a much better approximation for me to put in 3 eggs than 1, which was my other choice.   So I guess I'll have to attribute the fact that it took me over an hour to attain gossamer windowpane when it took you 35 minutes to differences in upper body strength.   Toward the beginning of my long mix, I was throwing the dough ball repeatedly onto the counter from shoulder height.   My husband ran into the kitchen to see what all the commotion was about and then worried that I was going to crack the counter.   (I didn't.)   The other thing I forgot to mention in the post, is that for all three mixings I scalded the milk first and then let it cool.   I never know if this is necessary or not, and since you didn't say to do it, I figure it probably wasn't.  

As for serving the final product, unfortunately I ran out of marmalade (I snuck in a layer of it to my daughter's chocolate, chocolate birthday cake and used it up) so don't have any for this bread.   This morning, I melted some butter in a pan, and then toasted a couple slices in the pan for me and my sons' breakfast.   I did have some lovely strawberry preserves to go with it.   (But with coffee - not tea - I'm not British after all.)  

Thanks so much for the links on the malt.   I'll take a look before I take another crack at it.   And of course thanks so much for the excellent Pain de Mie formula, which I wouldn't have had access to without your post.

-Varda

sweetbird's picture
sweetbird

That is so impressive, Varda! It's not a type of bread I've tried to make or ever tasted, for that matter, but I can't get over how perfect that slice is. I even love the color. That creamy near-yellow is really, really lovely. And the method, the kneading, my goodness!! I've never heard of anything like it. You are a *gentle* but determined force to be reckoned with!

I love your rye malt, too. Just the kind of experiment I find myself drawn to.

Thank you for a fun and inspiring post!

All the best,  Janie

varda's picture
varda

Thanks so much for your kind words.   One of the great things about this site is you get exposed to all kinds of interesting stuff.   At first it sort of goes right by you and then over time, some of it starts to stick.    I spent a lot of time doggedly learning how to make naturally leavened hearth loaves, and feel like I can do it some of the time anyhow.   So that leaves me open to exploring other things.   And I'm certainly pleased that I posted my rye malt pictures, as now I know better how to move forward.   I am a gardener and do a lot of seed starting in the spring, so sprouting a little rye didn't seem like too much of a stretch.   It has been nice to see your posts, and I look forward to more of them.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Varda,

Well, today is the day and I have 2 questions for you that I should have asked a couple of days ago but I wasn't looking ahead...I was assuming that after the final dough was mixed that there would be a room temp. bulk fermenting but that doesn't appear to be the case.  When I read Syd's formula looks like it only gets a 20-30 min rest.  Is that what you did?

Also, do you recall the wt of the dough you put into your Pullman?  Mine pan is the same size as yours is and I know how much I put in when I don't use the lid....actually I have never used the lid because I like the rounded tops - but I always plan for a rise about 2-3" above the top of the pan so I know I have to adjust but not sure just how much...

I know this is late but am hoping maybe you are lingering around here...if not....another experiment :-)

Thanks :-)

Janet

varda's picture
varda

Wow Janet, you got to this fast.   Yes 20-30 minute rest - I can't remember how much I did.   I believe I scaled the Pullman loaf to something like 950.   I did not save the scrap of paper I wrote it on unfortunately.    I could have fit in a bit  more  based on the result, but not much.    There was less than 2K total dough by the time I divided the dough - maybe something like 1800 so I put the rest in the other pan.  Also take a look at Syd's comment here - I think he gives amounts.  Keeping my fingers crossed! -Varda

UPDATE   - I just found the paper in the recycling bin:   I put 956 of dough into the Pullman and 820g of dough into the pyrex baking pan.   I'm going to update the post.  

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Varda,

Yeah, I couldn't resist after reading your post and then Syd's.  I just had to give it a try and it really isn't that labor intensive of a dough due to the way it is processed.  (This comment DOES NOT include your 1hr + work out :-) with the final dough.)  

Your timing is great :-)  

I am glad you found the slip of paper.  I would have way under judged the weight. I was thinking around 850g since I use 950-1000g when I make the rounded tops.  Nice to know it uses the same amounts.  Keeps things simpler.  

I used honey instead of sugar so I ended up with more dough - had to add extra flour in the final mix.  I used 925g in each Pullman and then I had some left over which I made into 90g rolls - single knotted.

Do you recall how long you proofed?  Mine are in the proofing box now and I am thinking it will be a long proof due to no bulk rise and a lot of enrichments - especially the honey - competing for the water.

The dough was really nice to work with once it came together.  (I mixed it in my DLX....No way was I going to attempt doing it by hand.  My hands are still sore from the 2nd phase add-in of this recipe. :-0 

Based on your 'wondering' about a French version of this loaf....I decided to try a recipe txfarmer posted here awhile ago that uses sd and a much more abbreviated processing timeline.  I am doing these two recipes back to back because I get better feed back from my family on the results if they have both permutations at the same time to taste.  I will let you know the results if you are interested.

I think I already know which one they will like best though and that is yours/Syd's.  Who wouldn't.  Loaded with all the milk, eggs butter and honey....Txfarmer's recipe uses a lot less of each...

Thanks for responding so quickly and for the inspiration :-)

Take Care,

Janet

varda's picture
varda

Hey Janet,    I didn't note how long I proofed - just poked the dough every now and then until I thought it had softened.    Which of txfarmer's formulas are you trying?   I just read through a couple of her Hokkaido loaves, and was thinking (just thinking mind you, not mixing) of trying one of them.     Of course I'm very interested in your results for both loaves, as well as the family's opinions.   Mine was all gone in three days which is kind of scary when you consider that there are only 3 of us at home and no one stopped by to help us out.   I did take Franko's advice and made some French Toast for dinner on day 2.   Now that's French Toast!    One of txfarmer's write-ups said that since these type of breads can be somewhat bland that adding the sourdough element is actually great for the taste.   When you get as enriched as Syd's Pain de Mie, I doubt you'd even notice the sourdough but perhaps with a less enriched loaf. -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Varda,

Here is the link to txfarmer's PdM:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20669/sourdough-pan-de-mie-how-make-quotshreddablyquot-soft-bread

My dough proofed a lot more quickly than I thought it would.  Took just 3 hours.  I baked them at 350° and it took almost an hour. The crust came out pretty crusty.  I had expected softer crust.  I am thinking maybe it is because I used a bit of butter to grease the pan.  What did you use on yours?

Good idea about French Toast.  I think I am going to chop about 1/2 the loaf off and freeze it to use later for a batch.

So far my daughter is the only one who has tasted it.  She liked it.  Said it didn't taste anything like any of the breads that I have baked before....I am  not sure exactly what that means but she did like it and liked the shape.

  I overdid the dough amount by a bit as both loaves had a bit of a 'lip' on them.  Here are photos that I took along the way:

                            

The roux.                                                                      Beginning of the final mix.                        End of final mix.

 

                                

      Rolls.                                                        Proofed and ready for lid.                      Done.

 

Crumb -bread still hot...

Crumb shot not very good due to lighting and the bread was hot out of the oven when cut into......but it shows the thicker crust and darker crust......

The timer just went off so txfarmer's PdM is ready for it's final mix.  It will  spend the night in the refrigerator.  I will let you know how it compares when the verdicts are in :-)

Take Care,

Janet

P.S.  Thanks for posting this recipe and bringing it to my attention.  A thanks goes out to Syd too for posting it in the first place.

varda's picture
varda

Janet,  You've outdone yourself.   And I see that you have totally mastered posting pictures.   So no excuse for not posting.   (Ok.   You can use any excuse you like.)   Looking forward to hearing the reviews.   -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Morning,

Thanks for all of your encouragement Varda.  You are more than kind :-)  Maybe someday but for now my nerves and I are content with keeping things the way they are but, as you know, things are subject to change....

Yesterday I baked txfarmer's  sd PdMie.  Much abbreviated process compared to Syd's and it was sd.  It turned out great.  The crumb soft and the pan sizing a bit closer to what it should be.  Daughter preferred Syd's method as she prefers the more enriched breads that don't have the sd tang even though I minimize the sourness of mine due to my building routine....I prefer baking with sd so I am thinking, with tinkering with the %'s in txfarmers, maybe I can get it to where she is satisfied with the flavor.

          

Today I am back to Syd's for 2 reasons.  I want to see what happens if I cut the resting times down.  First will be 16 hours but the second will be only 24.  I also want to use less dough in the pan.  I have been messaging back and forth with Syd on the sizing of these loaves and he says 500g should do it!  I used 975g in my first loaf so that is a huge change but I could tell by the crumb that is was just too much dough.  Yesterday I dropped to 800g when baking txfarmer's and that was better.  I probably could have proofed longer but was afraid of over proofing and I had to leave the house to run errands so I put it in early.  Didn't spring or reach the top of the pan but the crumb was a lot softer - less compact.  I am curious to see what happens with 500g.  

Anyway it turns out is good with this loaf though.  People who have tasted it love the flavor and are not bothered by the density of the crumb at all.  Who would mind with all the enrichments this dough packs into itself!

I have a lot of frozen PdM in my freezer waiting to be used for French Toast!

Thanks again for posting this formula.  I love learning about the roux method and seeing how it is kind of similar to P. Reinhart's epoxy method.  A new twist added to his base.  Something I may be able to transfer over to other loaves I bake once I get the hang of it.

Take care,
Janet 

varda's picture
varda

about texture of the crumb with different amounts.   Love the txfarmer one.   And given that it probably takes a lot less mixing, I should try it.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Varda,

Yes, txfarmer's is great.  Woman I gave some of it to loved the flavor and said the texture was softer than anything she has come up with in her breads - and she uses dough enhancers!  So, by all means, give this one a try when you aren't swamped with other bakes.

I just finished my 3rd, and final, round with the PdMie.  I used Syd's formula but cut it in half.  I made several changes to see what results I would get.

  • I cut the second phase for only 24 hours.
  • I did a bulk fermentation after the final mix.
  • I only used 500g of dough in my 9x4x4 pan.
  • I overproofed it.

Last was an accident :-)  It was just about ready to go into the oven when I had to take my son to a soccer practice.  What was supposed to be a 30 min. outing turned into a 60 minute one.  The dough wasn't happy.  It had risen to the top of the pan but collapsed down to 1/2 the pan during the baking.  :-(

Verdict:  First loaf is the one my daughter prefers despite my using too much dough for the pan.  She liked all the different textures in one loaf.  The thin crust up against a more dense crumb and then the softer center.  She also said it tasted 'sweeter'.

So, from her synopses I surmise:

  • That the longer 2nd phase does indeed make a significant impact on flavor - even when using my fresh whole grains.
  • That the bulk fermentation added too much air (CO2) creating a crumb that wasn't as dense.
  • That my way, even though it isn't how this bread is 'supposed' to be, is how my family prefers it so I will go back to using more dough in the pan.
  • Thou shall not overproof.....dough doesn't like it.  :-)

Thanks again for bringing this loaf to my attention and thanks to Syd for posting it in the first place.  It now has a file of it's own in my bread baking binders and I will use the method I used on the first loaf. (Syd did all the work for me and I should have just stuck with his directions in the first place.....but ........now I know because I have actually done the work too :-)

Take Care,

Janet

 

 

varda's picture
varda

Hey Janet,  Great that you worked through all this.   And interesting that you ended up back where you started based on "user reviews."    I can see quite a difference between my two loaves - the one with no top and the other that came up to the lid.  Both were delicious but different textures.   I would like to make this again soon, but probably I would make half, and maybe my mixer could even handle it.   Yes the soccer practice that goes too long - I'm familiar with that and have lost too many loaves that way.  Nowadays when I go out I almost always just stick the dough (in whatever stage it is) into the refrigerator.   Then pull it out when I get back.   Advice I got on this site.  Your efforts are very impressive.  -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Varda,

Good idea about the refrig.  I have done it before but thought I had time....lesson learned again......  'ashamed grin'.

When you get around to making this bread again can you answer some questions (fine tuning) for me?  Questions are: What is the consistency of your 2nd day dough when it is added to the final dough?  I had to adjust due to whole grains that are thirstier and mine was pretty stiff.  I added extra milk the second time around so it felt like a 75% hydrated dough by the time it was added to the final mix.  (Previously it was more the consistency of a bagel dough....STIFF......and my hands hurt for a good day after mixing up just the 2nd dough 'look of angst'.  

What was the consistency of your final dough?  

My  final dough wasn't very stiff either due to the extra milk I added (I found out just how much milk evaporates when heated to 190° the hard way.....)  ( I really learned a lot with this simple white bread!!!!!  Looks are deceptive.....'large grin'........ but even in my DLX it took awhile to get to the windowpane stage.  I used Mike Avery's technique of mixing for 5 minutes and letting it then sit for 10  until it was done.  That might help with your mixer so it doesn't overheat....or else you can buy a DLX.....'light bulb moment expression'...followed by....... 'just kidding' .........    If you did that this could end up being one heck of an expensive loaf to make.  'large grin'.

Time to tidy up the kitchen.

Take Care,

Janet

varda's picture
varda

Next time I make I'll keep track of consistency.   As I recall this dough was pretty stiff second and third stage.   I'm thinking that since I started with around 2000g of dough and ended with something under 1800, that perhaps I lost a lot of moisture due to evaporation in the long refrigerator stay.   Which might also explain why it was so hard to mix certainly in my mixer, but then also when I did it by hand.   I did not add extra liquid.   Maybe it was the very low moisture (I'm now thinking lower than it should have been) that caused it to be so brittle during the first half hour plus of mixing.   At the end it got to be very pliant , smooth, and strong.   I was able to practically put my fist through it without it tearing.   As far as a DLX, my mother grew up very poor, saved everything, I'm virtually incapable of throwing things out until they have been completely, totally, unequivocally used.   So I will stick with  my Kitchen Aid for another 5 years or as long as it lasts, and then I'll get the DLX.   Deal?   (Grinning now as well, so don't think I'm yelling at you.   I'm reasonably nice when not angry.)    -Varda

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Varda,

Large grin here too.  We grew up saving everything.  Clothes bought 1x a year and my mother made a lot of our clothes when we were younger. As a teenager I began to sew my own.  

One of the hard adjustments for me in today's world is that of the 'throw away' rampant consumerism.  Something I try to avoid but when I can't find quality products it is hard not to join in..... We had 2 stoves when growing up.  One of which used wood for fuel.  My mother was ecstatic when my father purchased a gas stove.  We had one refrigerator, one washing machine and one dryer.....my mother was never faced with the decisions of replacing anything as all were made to last and they did.  Oh yeah, we also had 1 toaster that was never replaced and it was used a lot!  We lived in the same house we were born in - at least 3 of the 5 us.  Had an original T. Edison light bulb in our basement that was NEVER replaced and it was still burning when my mother died.  My mother lived in the house for over 40 years....Think she had only 2 cars that whole time.  Last was still in excellent condition when she died. My first car lasted me 19 years and is still going strong as far as I know....sold it to a college student for the same price I had bought it....

And now.....I have never had a mixer until a couple of years ago when I began baking bread again.  When my kids were little I did it all by hand and that just got too hard for me to do because I didn't knwo about the S&F technique....anyway, I started out with a KA not knowing what on earth I was doing and it was a smaller model that couldn't handle ww flours so I returned it and bought a Bosch from grain supplying woman.  As I began to bake more loaves of bread and varying sizes the Bosch just wasn't doing what I wanted it to do....so after much deliberation I decided to buy a DLX....Bosch is still in the basement.  I have been successful in letting go of some of my childhood ways and this site has been a big influence in that arena 'huge grin followed by a muffled groan'.....I do not imagine replacing the DLX as it is a very sturdy and versatile mixer.

I am all for sticking with what works for you and using it until it dies....I am just sad that there are no small appliance repair shops around anymore.  Over the years I kept many things alive with their help.

Thanks for the info. on the dough.  Sounds similar to mine.  I was really surprised by how much milk evaporated when heated.  By weight it was about 25% or higher!  Did you find the same thing happened when you heated your milk?  ( I think I recall reading that you usually boil your milk before adding to doughs somewhere but could be wrong....)

Let me know what happens when you try this out again - especially if you add a bit more liquid.  I do remember that the day 2 dough was VERY stiff when first mixed but after it's 36hrs of fermenting time it had softened up considerably and was actually quite manageable.  Like a 75% biga.

Take Care,

Janet