The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Rising--once, twice, three times?

alpenrose's picture
alpenrose

Rising--once, twice, three times?

I am still having a difficulty getting my mind around the concept of rising. For example today I did Cook's Multi Grain recipe. My KA is not working as well as it should so I took the dough out after about 4 minutes and then kneaded for 4 minutes more on the counter. Put dough in bowl to rise which it did. First question: why can't I just put it in pan to rise and then bake? Why is it necessary to take out of the bowl and knead some more and then put it in pans to rise--never does get as high again. I know I must be doing something wrong with the hand kneading, but I am following all the videos I have seen. I don't think I am kneading too hard the first time. The second time I just dump it out of the bowl and then cut it into two loaves and try to tighten the skin and put it in the pans. No oven spring.  Any thoughts?  

pmccool's picture
pmccool

So many implicit and explicit questions in such a simple-sounding inquiry!  Let's try this, shall we?

Generalization #1 - Gluten forms when two proteins in flour, glutenin and gliadin, come in contact with water.

Generalization #2 - The mixing/kneading process, whether done by machine or by hand, vigorously or gently, has more to do with organizing the gluten network and less to do with gluten development (see #1).  And no, a few minutes of manual kneading aren't apt to harm the dough unless the flour contains very little (like pastry flour or rye flour) or very fragile (like triticale or spelt flours) gluten.

Generalization #3 - More mixing/kneading = finer, more even crumb texture with smaller bubbles.  Less mixing/kneading = coarser, more open crumb with bigger bubbles.

Generalization #4 - Bread can be made from dough that has risen anywhere from zero to three times (or even more), so long as food is readily available to the yeasts in the dough.  Primary differences are texture and flavor in the finished bread.  Zero rises = flatbread or flat bread or bricks.  One rise = coarser, more random crumb texture with possibility of gaping holes; potentially more crumbly.  Two or three rises = more even distribution of bubbles in crumb, probably smaller bubbles than one-rise bread.  One rise too far = dense, gummy, pale loaf with little or no oven spring (or even collapse from previous expansion).

Generalization #5 - Longer fermentation time, whether via multiple rises or a longer, colder rise, produces more flavorful bread than that made with a shorter fermentation time.

Generalization #6 - The act of degassing, whether by "punching down" or by stretch and fold, or by pressing out the larger bubbles, or by a few strokes of kneading, has the effect of bringing the effectively immobile yeasts into contact with more food which leads to more gas production for the next rise.  It also evens out bubble sizes and can even, if using a stretch and fold technique, strengthen the dough by aligning the gluten strands into a more organized network.

Generalization #7 - A well-shaped loaf is better equipped to produce a large expansion while being baked than a poorly-shaped loaf.

Generalization #8 - A loaf baked in a pan typically has a lesser amount of oven spring than a loaf baked directly on the hearth or on a baking stone.

Generalization #9 - A loaf that has been allowed to ferment too long (over-proofed), will not produce oven spring no matter how well shaped or kneaded.  See #4's reference to "one rise too far".

Generalization #10 - A loaf that has not fermented long enough (under-proofed) may exhibit little or no oven spring, or may have such explosive oven spring that the loaf tears open along weak points.  True for both panned and hearth-baked breads.

Generalization #11 - The "too long" and "not...long enough" statements in #9 and #10 have very little to do with clock time.  The real measurement is volume, usually something approaching a doubling from original volume to ready-to-bake volume.

Not being in your kitchen to see what's going on, I don't know which of those might apply to your bread.  I'd guess that one or more of them are in play, though.

Paul

charliez's picture
charliez

Thanks so much for all these points Paul.  I am a beginner too and they answered more than two questions I had regarding rising.  

deva's picture
deva

Thank you so very much for going over these fine points.  Now onto finding out more about oven spring

davina's picture
davina

 Hi Paul,

You mention "One rise too far = dense, gummy, pale loaf with little or no oven spring (or even collapse from previous expansion). "  Can you elabrate "one rise too far" ? I do not understand people always say there is not enough food for rise.  At the same time, 2, 3 rises before the final shaping and rising is encouraged.  Why encouraging so many rises if there is no food?  Do you mean deflating, folding  will generate the food for the rise and deflating and folding again will generate another next rise?  

I am no scientific mind. I am sorry to ask such  stupid questions. It is because my bread seldom have oven spring.  Even they do, it will collapse. Now i am getting used to it's being collapsing when i bake. Even I have a baking pan directly underneath the bakeware.  At one time, i over proofed the final rise and the dough  got  so big that i had to reshape it and proof it again, thinking i might have wasted this batch.  But it turned out to be very successful one.   I am so confused now.  I do not know what to look for.  

I hope you, or anyone, can tell me the reasons.  Thanks so much.

davina's picture
davina

 Hi Paul,

You mention "One rise too far = dense, gummy, pale loaf with little or no oven spring (or even collapse from previous expansion). "  Can you elabrate "one rise too far" ? I do not understand people always say there is not enough food for rise.  At the same time, 2, 3 rises before the final shaping and rising is encouraged.  Why encouraging so many rises if there is no food?  Do you mean deflating, folding  will generate the food for the rise and deflating and folding again will generate another next rise?  

I am no scientific mind. I am sorry to ask such  stupid questions. It is because my bread seldom have oven spring.  Even they do, it will collapse. Now i am getting used to it's being collapsing when i bake. Even I have a baking pan directly underneath the bakeware.  At one time, i over proofed the final rise and the dough  got  so big that i had to reshape it and proof it again, thinking i might have wasted this batch.  But it turned out to be very successful one.   I am so confused now.  I do not know what to look for.  

I now intentionally overproof the final rise because if it collapses it will usually be back to the level where i have proofed.  It is better than underproof which won't even get an oven spring.  

I hope Paul, or anyone, can explain to me the reasons.  Thanks so much.

Lechem's picture
Lechem

The yeast runs out of food. Some doughs, depending on the flour used, can be knocked back and risen again more than once. Other times depending on the grain this won't be suitable. But whatever the case everything has to be completed before the food is used up. 

Slightly under proofed is better than slightly over proofed. Getting the feel of when the time is just right comes with practice. Different types of dough need to be proofed to different levels.  

davina's picture
davina

Thanks so much for your time.  I have tried to under proof my dough.  It turned out to be quite dense as the oven spring was  so minimum.  Haha, so i over proof my dough. Even though when it collapse, i still have a very light crumb.  I know this is not the best way.  But i have no idea why the oven spring won't stay and the under proof is not going up much to make a light crumb. Sometimes, i do test the imprint on the dough.  That don't work as much.  Most of the time, i found out the outer skin/crust goes/spring up by itself without bring the crumb with it. I do not know what is really happening.  I do preheat the oven with a stainless steel sheet.  I would put my dough in a pan which would be set on top of the heated stainless steel sheet.

What you have said sounds like i need to do on a trial and error experiencement.  Since bread flour company won't tell us how the flour react in baking in each situation. Please let me know if i have interprited your meaning wrong.  Appreciate.  Any suggestion and information will be greatly valued.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

as it is the extent of the final rise.  Different breads do call for different numbers of rises, as you note.  What is really important, as Lechem has already mentioned, is the importance of baking the dough at the appropriate degree of fermentation. 

From your description, it sounds as though your doughs are consistently overproofed before they are baked.  That leads to the collapse that you have seen.

Here's a method that may help you gauge the degree of proofing after the dough is shaped into loaves.  As you start to shape a loaf (or loaves), pinch off a small piece of dough.  Place the small piece of dough in a small, clear container that will allow you to see the dough.  Here's the key requirement: the container's sides should be straight and vertical, not curved like a teacup or bowl.  Press the dough down just enough that the top surface is level.  Mark the starting level of the dough and mark the level that the dough will have to reach to be doubled.  Cover it with a damp towel or a bit of plastic so that the dough doesn't dry.  Finish shaping the loaf or loaves.  Place the loaf or loaves and the container with the small bit of dough in the same place for the final rise.  When the bit of dough has doubled, your loaves will also have doubled. This is a very good application of the instruction to "watch the dough, not the clock".

To increase oven spring, bake the loaves before they have doubled in size. 

I suspect that you will see the loaves look much smaller than you think they should when they have doubled.  That's due to two reasons.  First, we don't do well at remembering something's original size.  Second, we tend to think that doubling means the loaf should grow twice as big in all directions.  That, however, is 2x2x2=8!  I can't think of any dough that wouldn't collapse before reaching that expansion.

As you grow more experienced, practice squeezing the shaped loaves gently as they rise.  You will come to recognize a correlation to how the loaf feels and how much the small piece of dough has expanded.

Best wishes for your future bakes.

Paul

davina's picture
davina

Hi paul, 

Thanks for your time too. That is a good idea too.  I had this problem yesterday.

I baked a bread yesterday.  The top crust separated from the crumb and continue to expand and rise in the oven, leaving a void area in between the top crust skin and the crumb.  It did not break or bursted open.  However, it just stopped rising and then becoming browner and browner. After i transferred it onto a rack to cool, the top collpased back onto the top of the crumb just to fill back the void area.  I do not know if i  made myself clear.  I just do not know what is happening.  It seems baking is too much science for me.  Can  anyone explain why only the top rose?  I thought i had everthing ready for the baking.  What was i missing?

Thanks Paul for your information.  

pmccool's picture
pmccool

While you are at it, start a new thread for your question. That will let people focus on your topic, specifically. 

A "flying roof", as it is sometimes called, can have different causes.  Some more information will help make the diagnosis easier.  

You can also use the Search tool in the upper right hand corner of the page to do some additional research while you wait for a response. 

Paul

davina's picture
davina

Thanks so much for you time to help me.  My recipe is so simple.  I got it from Youtube. All are yeast breads.  One of them i cannot make it rise as the Youtube is the Dinner rolls.  Recepi from Food at Home: 250g bread flour, 37g Sugar, 3/4 tsp salt, 25 g mild powder, 1 tsp yeast, 1 egg, and 110-120g water/milk.  The rolls turned out very dense, not much for a oven spring.  I thought i had everything ready: temperature inside oven is 350 degree F, hot baking sheet, with water for the steam, and not overproof.  It might be my oven. HaHa!

Yes, I will post it as a new thread.  As i am not very good with computer, need some time to figure out how to do the thread.  Thanks so much. 

lyra's picture
lyra

Paul,

As another beginner, thanks so much for walking through all that. I was wondering about this myself the other night after punching down some dough for a second rise.

Is there a good tutorial on this site somewhere for stretch and fold? I see many mentions of it, but I haven't yet stumbled over a clear "here is how you do it" explanation. I found this forum post about stretch and fold with a video link which I bookmarked to watch later. Perhaps that will have my answer!

 

pmccool's picture
pmccool

Mark Sinclair, aka mcs here on TFL (ooh!  look at all the TLAs!), owns The Back Home Bakery.  He has posted some free tutorials on his web site.  Watch the one titled "Kneading and Folding" for a good example.  You can also order a DVD of additional tutorials from Mark.  He does very well at explaining and demonstrating various techniques.

You can also click on the Videos link at the top of the screen for additional videos that have been posted here.  Or, use the Search function at the left-hand top of the page with the search term video to find even more.

Paul

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Excellent description of information that took years for me to learn! And some of it just recently!!

alpenrose's picture
alpenrose

Paul--Thank you SOOO MUCH !  I will print it and keep it !

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

Paul,

I want to comment that not only did you give a stellar response here but for those with little experience in bread baking,  Paul has created an excellent reference sheet that you should print and keep nearby while baking.

Jeff

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

All your rise times will be much slower and the rising will take a great deal of patience on your part.  With 69°F a two hour rise at 75° will take maybe 4 hours or even 6.  You will need a way to gauge slow rising.  A bowl shape is hard to judge, a container with straight sides and markings makes it easier.   

It can easily be that the dough rising corresponds to your hand warmth, helping the dough rise.  After the dough is left in the bowl and has cooled off and returned to 69°F room temp, the rising slows down or appears to stop.  You have to give it more time.  I assure you that cool rising can be done, it just takes a lot of patience and a spread-out baking schedule.   Yeast like it warm.  

You might want to switch to a cooler climate starter like rye with a small amount of added wheat.  

Mini

pmccool's picture
pmccool

You will probably find one or more exceptions to every one.  Still, I'm happy if it is of value to you as you bake.

Paul

Simisu's picture
Simisu

with the thanks on this one, it is indeed very helpful and i´m sure i´ll be coming back to it for reference quite a few more times!

cheers.

Annette Rana Webb's picture
Annette Rana Webb

Thanks Mark!