November 30, 2011 - 7:14am
Bulk Fermentation Time
I know there is no definite answer for this, but as a starting point should I use the time it would take for my starter to double in size? After feeding my starter I'm going to check every hour and see when it doubles and use this as a rough time for bulk fermemtation when I bake.
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May be better to see when your starter has peaked. In my experience a starter can triple or more. It is ripe, ready for use, at peak or slightly prior to.
Jim
I do use it when it peaks. I was just worndering If the time that it takes to double would be a the rough time I should use for bulk fermemtation. My thinking was to ferment for that amount of time then retard overnight then proof. So I didn't deplete all the sugars in the bread resulting in a pale crust. Just experimenting with my basic white bread recipe trying to improve it
Most of the outcome of the loaf is determined in the bulk fermentation. So getting it right is important. The more one controls this process the more predictable the outcome. Temperature controls time. Learn to adjust the dough temperature by controlling the water temperature. Learn to control proofing temperature to control proofing time. If dough and proof temperatures are left on their own, timing will be all over the place.
As to your present condition; use your hands. Flour them up and feel the dough as you go. Before the stretch and fold use a whole (lightly floured) hand and press on the dough. feel how firm it is. Do it again at the next S&F as the dough ferments. Feel how tight the dough is as you S&F. Feel it become more elastic. Feel it become more airy almost lighter. Develop the hands of a baker.
Jim
Your bread composition will be different every time you make bread depending on how you work it, what you make it with, the temperature of your ingredients, the stablity of your starter, etc.
You should let the bread guide you, not the clock.
There's really no reason to time the process unless you are mainting a production schedule.
I just a beginner and I know its more about what is happening with the dough and letting that dictate what to do. I'm just looking for sugestions I don't have the experience right now to make these calls. Timing the process at least gives me a starting point. I'm using the same recipe all the time just trying to learn and looking for advice. All those things you mentioned are fine If you have the experience. It would be great to do that but then I wouldn't be here looking for advice.
bobku,
thomaschacon is correct that you should not look at the clock for advice when your ferment is done. There is no correlation between your starter activity volume increase and your dough fermenting time. The difference in hydration between the starter and dough alone makes comparison impossible. Then there is the percentage of inoculation into the dough compared to feeding.
If you want to be able to judge how your fermentation is progressing, ferment in a transparent or translucent container. Observe the gas bubbles on the side of the container. They will be tiny at first and will grow as fermentation proceeds. Every time you do a stretch and fold you will see the bubbles reappear more quickly and larger than before the folding. The dough temperature will affect how long this will take. AT 65F it will take forever. AT 76F it will take a few hours. When you have many 1/4 inch or larger size bubbles, cut the dough with a serrated knife and observe the honey combed structure inside. This is what properly fermented dough looks like. When you bake it, all those small gas pockets will grow and become the beautiful crumb you desire.
Eric
Thank You. At least I have something to go by now
from the previous comments, for sure. There is no bad advice there, becuase they are right. I understand where you are, though. I was there myself a couple of years ago. You're just looking for an initial handle on the process. At least, that was what I wanted when just getting started: some general idea of where I was going.
I took my lead initially from the book "The Bread Builders" by Dan Wing and Alan Scott. That was the book that reignited my enthusiasm for baking, and especially, kindled my interest in sourdough. In wood fired ovens too, but that's another story. I started where Dan Wing suggested: 3 hours. It's not a magic number. It's not always (or even ever) exactly right. It did, however, start me off getting edible bread, and as I learned more I got better at reading the dough instead of the clock. Still working on that.
The next thing I learned was from a post here on The Fresh Loaf by Eric Hanner, addressing this same issue. I've come across it more than once since then, and it helped me get a better feel for the bulk fermentation process. Again, this is not a magic handle, nor is it always (or even ever) exactly right. Eric advised doing bulk fermentation in a clear container where you can watch the dough, and to keep it in bulk until you can see numerous bubbles on the container inner surface at least 1/4" in diameter. This usually (for me in my kitchen with my starter) ties pretty closely to the 3 hour generalization. Only "usually", and only "pretty closely". You still have to keep in mind one of the Rule #1's: Watch the dough, not the clock. I had a hard time learning that one, and these two tips I've suggested here helped me bridge that gap.
When formulas require something specific and different, like a long cool bulk fermentation, or overnight retarding in the refrigerator for example, it is much easier initially. You just do what they say and go on. When those specific instructions are not available it can be a little lonely in the kitchen when you are just starting out. I hope this is of some help to you there.
Best of luck!
OldWoodenSpoon
Edit: After I pushed SAVE I see that Eric has indeed offered you this same advice in a post of his own. Sorry for the redundancy.
Do you think I can still do stretch and fold every so often and place back in glass container and still be able to see the bubbles? So my bubbles should be about 1/4 inch, and stretch and fold will collaspe some but I should still see growth and know its probably fermented enough when bubbles are correct size?
I think, when he said
This works for me too, and I learned it from him. Be careful not to do your stretch and folds so often that the bubbles don't have time to form. Intervals of 30 to 45 minutes, or even an hour, usually suffice. Here you are back on unfamiliar ground though because you need to develop a feel for the dough too, so you can tell when you have done enough of those S & F's.
OldWoodenSpoon
if after all that really excellent advice you are getting pale loaves, you might add just a tiny amount (start with 0.1 - 0.2 bakers percent) of diastatic malt, or a little condensed skim milk, to aid in browning. (please pardon the lack of capitalization - for some reason my blackberry won't do caps on this site)
If I have to I'll try that. I just feel like I should be able to get a browner crust. I think If I follow some of the suggestions made so far it might solve my crust issue also. Thanks for everyone's help I'll be tyring all this out on my next bake this weekend
In particular, try to control the temperature. Adjust the water temperature to get the dough temperature you want at the end of kneading, and allow it to ferment in an environment where the temperature is in the low to mid 70s Fahrenheit. With a typical recipe, you can expect the bulk fermentation to take on the order of 3 to 6 hours, with lower temperature corresponding to longer time. As others have stressed, you really need to go by how the dough is developing, but this gives you an idea of what to expect.
If the surface of the dough feels firm, it's not done. It should feel a bit flabby and cool to the touch. Try to correlate what Eric told you above with how the dough feels as it develops.