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Russian And German 100% Ryes - 4 Recipes

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Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Russian And German 100% Ryes - 4 Recipes

Hi,

A little while ago Varda posted about her experiences with the Russian Rye from Andrew Whitley's Bread Matters, and there was a longish discussion of the formula.

I posted some photos of the process of making Russian Rye

Andy suggested to use the formula he remembers from his time with Andrew Whitley at the Village Bakery, and I had a closer look at a couple of German standard formulas.

At the end I baked 4 variations -

Russian Rye, Bread Matters version (100% Hydration, preferment 200% hydration, 31% flour from preferment)

Russian Rye, Andy's version (85% Hydration, preferment 167% hydration, 35% flour from preferment)

Single Step Detmolder (78% Hydration, preferment 80% hydration, 35% flour from preferment)

Berliner Kurz-Sauer (79% Hydration, preferment 100% hydration (fermented at 35C for 3.5 hours) , 50% flour from preferment)

Here a comparison of the crumb (pictures of the loaves can be found in the blogs referenced avove):

Formulas:

1. Russian Rye, Bread Matters Version

Sourdough  
Rye31% 166g
Water62% 333g
Mature Starter10% 54g
   
Paste  
Rye69% 370g
Water42% 225g
Salt1.50% 8g
Sourdough93% 499g
Yield206% 1106g

The surdough fermented for 14 hours at 24C, the paste is mixed and shaped with wet hands and is put directly into a buttered tin. (2X500g tins in my case)

After 2 hours the loaves were risen by about 25% and bubbles started to show, they were ready for the oven.

The bake: 10 minutes at 240C with steam, then 10 minutes at 225C, then 20 more minutes at 200C.

This bread neads a long rest before cutting, at least 24 hours. In my experience the taste is fully there after 3 days.

The crumb is moist and airy, and the bread has a light tang that gets stronger in time.

2. Russian Rye, Andy's Village Bakery version

Sourdough  
Rye35%206g
Water58%341g
Mature Starter10%58g
   
Paste  
Rye65%382g
Water27%159g
Salt2.00%11.7g
Sourdough93%547g
Yield187%1100g

The process is pretty much the same as above.

The surdough fermented for 14 hours at 24C, the paste is mixed and shaped with wet hands and is put directly into a buttered tin. (2X500g tins in my case) This dough is much easier to handle than (1)

After 2 hours the loaves were risen by about 25% and bubbles started to show, they were ready for the oven.

The bake: 10 minutes at 240C with steam, then 10 minutes at 225C, then 20 more minutes at 200C.

This bread neads less rest before cutting than (1), but at least 24 hours.

The crumb is moist and still light, and the bread has a more rye-y taste than (1).

It is difficult to say which one I prefer, but the handling qualities make this one a better candidate for a production environment.

3. Single-Step Detmolder

This method uses a rye starter with typically 80% hydration which is kept at 24C to 28C for 12 hours. The mature starter can then be used in production for up to 6 hours, it doesn't starve quickly and is very robust.

I followed the formula from an earlier post of mine, using 100% rye.

Sourdough  
Rye35%213g
Water28%170g
Mature Starter6%36g
   
Paste  
Rye65%395g
Water50%304g
Salt2.00%12.1g
Yeast (fresh)1.00%6g
Sourdough63%383g
Yield181%1100g

After mixing the paste ferments for 40min (80min without yeast), is shaped with wet hands and put in tins, and rests for another hour.

Baking as above.

The crumb is quite dense as compared with the othe two breads, and there is a distinctive tang.

4. Berliner Kurz-Sauer

This one is a bit unusual: The sourdough matures at high temperature (35C) inb a very short (kurz) time: 3.5 hours.

At this stage the sourdough is almost frothy, very light and fragile, and tastes fruity mild-sour. The aim is to have a lot of LAB producing lactic acid. Therefore this one relyes a bit more on added yeast for the lift.

Sourdough  
Rye50%275g
Water50%275g
Mature Starter10%55g
   
Paste  
Rye50%275g
Water29%159g
Salt2.00%11g
Yeast (fresh)1.00%5g
Sourdough100%550g
Yield182%1100g

 After mixing the paste proofed for about 1 hour, is  then shaped with wet hands and put in tins.

At my ambient temperature (24C) the bread was ready for the oven after 2 hours of rest.

The crumb is clearly dryer than the other three breads, and after 24 hours the taste is quite bland.

But I like how this bread developed over time - I had the last bits yesterday - 7 days after the bake. The taste was still mild, with a well developed rye note.

Conclusion:

These four breads are a bit like four different characters. And it's hard for me to say which one I would prefer.

Each of them change their character considerably over time.

If I would need some bread tomorrow I'd go with Andy's Russian or the Detmolder, they have a lot of complexity early on.

The Detmolder was the most sour of the four, and developed even more sourness over time.

The Berliner Kurz-Sour might be a good way to introduce people to this kind of bread due to its mildness, and it also goes well with more delicate toppings.

And the "Bread Matters" Russian has this amazing open texture.

The choice is really up to you.

Juergen

 

 

 

Comments

varda's picture
varda

Juergen,  Very interesting.   It's nice to see this all in one place.   Looks like the Russian Rye and Village Bakery Ryes are quite similar but somehow the taste of the latter is more rye-y?    It has that same open crumb and looks like it is very moist.   The most different one is the Berliner - which looks more dry and stiff.   How was it?   I understand that acetic acid produces sour taste, but I don't know the taste contribution of lactic acid.    I am looking forward to trying the Village Bakery version.  -Varda

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi Varda,

Thank you for your comment.

I have been busy and all of this took a while ...

The Berliner is very mild, and I think the lactic acid just adds a tiny bit of sweetness.

I really liked this bread after it had aged a bit - 4 days. It didn't feel dry then.

The bubbles in the VB rye are a bit smaller, the crumb is more firm and less gummy, and the flavour developed quicker than in the Bread Matters version. It also developed a stronger acidity over time.

I am sure you'll enjoy it.

Juergen

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Juergen, Thank you for this very interesting comparison.
:^) from breadsong

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Breadsong,

Your comment is highly appreciated. Your 80% Rye is perfect, and I am lookuing forward to seeing more ryes from you!

Juergen

CarlSF's picture
CarlSF

Juergen,

I'm interested on how the 4 different rye breads taste.

Carl

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi Carl, I updated my blog with regards to tastes. Difficult matter.

Do you have any experience with similar recipes?

Juergen

CarlSF's picture
CarlSF

Hi Juergen,

Thanks for posting the results.  Very interesting indeed!  I guess you will have to taste the breads again the next day to see if the flavor profile will change or not.  I have some experience with the Detmolder Einstufen method, but the results from it were mixed.  Sometimes the bread would have a mild sour taste and sometimes I would not get any sour taste at all.  I have tasted a rye bread using the Berliner Kurz method, and it's not very sour at all....just mild.  In addition to taste, how were the smell of the breads?  Do they give off a nice aroma?  Do any of the 4 breads taste like the breads that you ate when you were in Germany?  By the way, that's very nice that you're providing your rye breads to a local cafe!!

Carl

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi Carl,

Thank you for your comment and youyr questions.

I find the Detmolder Einstufen process very reliable. My kitchen is always around 24C. Suepke says that the temperature range for this process is 24C (sour) to 28C (mild), at a sourdough hydration of 80%. This is a very small range in which everything changes. How well can you control your environment? Can you post your recipe?

About the taste: the four breads change a lot over time, and I suppose this might depend on flour and all the other parameters. If I listed my favourites by day, then I'd say:

Day 2/3 Detmolder

Day 4: 85% Russian

Day 5: 100% Russian

Day 6 and over: Berliner Kurz. In the other breads the acidity got a bit dominating.

The smell of the breads wasn't as significantly different as the taste, but nice nonetheless.

The Detmolder (and its variations with wheat) is closest to what I know from Germany.

The Berliner Kurz process can also be used for mixed breads, but that is on my ToDo list.

I hopes this completes your picture,

Juergen

 

CarlSF's picture
CarlSF

Hi Juergen,

Here is my rye sourdough recipe for the Detmolder Einstufen:

Rye flour 100%

Water 80% (at 25 C)

Rye sourdough 10%

After mixing the ingredients together, I let it rest in 24 C environment for 16 hours.  I have no problems maintaining a 24 C controlled-environment.

Carl

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi Carl,

This is precisely what I do.

I usually have batch sizes of 400g sourdough - I am a home baker and if I did more I couldn't bake it!

How about your batch sizes?

Is it possible that you have more dough and the internal temperature starts to rise?

I noticed that flour has a huge impact - I changed producers once and the sourdough behaved like a different animal...

Just a few thoughts,

Juergen

CarlSF's picture
CarlSF

Hi Juergen,

I usually keep my batch sizes at 190 grams.  If I am making several loaves of bread, then the batch size could be larger, but I'll have enough starter leftover to put into the refrigerator for the next feeding.  The rye flour I am using is from a health food store (Reformhaus),  and it is organic.  It is medium rye flour, and I guess it is probably the same as type 1150.  I could try a mixture of dark rye flour which might be the same as 1370, or I could try another brand of medium rye flour from another store.

Carl

lumos's picture
lumos

Great post, Juergen. I always love the  way you employ in baking to investigate how each different formula produce different result.....and love you more for being so generous to sharing the results with us! :)

VB's crumb looks really beautiful, both its openness and colour.  Must've tasted great, too.  Look forward to your invitation next time you bake it!  :p

lumos

 

 

P.S.  Sent email to the other address. Did you get it?

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

when you feel hungry ...

Thank you, lumos.

I bake these fairly regularly now, as I have started supplying a small cafe with 8 loaves weekly - 4 100% ryes and 4 caraway detmolders (40% rye). Great fun for a home baker to see the own produce on a shelf in a shop.

Juergen

lumos's picture
lumos

,,,,,sorry, I meant Andrew Whitley's version..... Didn't read the formula titles carefully enough. :p

Great to hear you're baking to supply your local cafe.  Wonderful way to 'educate' the locals' palate! ;)

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Juergen, I appreciate your effort and committment to the cause! It must have been a real challenge having that plenty of rye breads at disposal and analyzing each in all respects :)

Can I add more food for thought? Literally :-)  I tried the weekly sourdough bread described in your Roetz pdf  (250 gr of rye flour + a touch of starter + 400 gr water fermented for a week stirring every day, then I added 200 gr of new starter built in 2 steps, 12 gr of salt and 250 of rye flour, 2 hours of bulk fermentation. Baked free-form at 220°). I have to say that I didn't know how I should organize the preferment (what hydratation to choose etc) so I had to work a lot by fantasy, but the resulting bread was fantastic. Both very sour and very sweet, delicious! In my opinion it's a bread worth the long wait that should be compared to the other, if you feel.

 

Kudos!

  Nico

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Thank you very much for your comment, Nico.

I am happy you had such success with the process you distilled from the Roetz document.

I am always fascinated how little changes in the procedure change the outcome so completely.

Your process looks very interesting, and I will take me a bit of time to think things through and read the Roetz document again.

If you have photos and/or more precise notes about the process please feel free to post them here for comparison.

I feel like i slowly get a picture of what is possible with rye, and there is so much more to explore.

Juergen

 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Very nice comparison Juergen. You have been busy. Are you baking in open metal tins with these?

Eric

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Thank you, Eric.

The cheapest silver tins, seasoned with corn oil.

Juergen

RICHARD HAMILTON's picture
RICHARD HAMILTON

Juergen   I followed all the instructions per 1. Russian Rye, Bread Matters Version.  The bread looks very good but it is wet on the inside. Can it be baked longer to make it a little dryer in the inside?  What would you recommend?

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi Richard,

This bread is about 100% hydration - very wet indeed.

You can bake it longer, baking times depend very much on the oven.

If you gradually reduce temperature you can bake this type of bread quite long.

It also takes a while for the crumb to set - about 2 days. It gets less messy then.

Do you have a photo of the crumb?

RICHARD HAMILTON's picture
RICHARD HAMILTON

Juergen,

I finally got this bread perfected.  I made a few changes to the procedure.  First, I found I have a better fermentation if I ferment for 24 hours.  Next I increased the second temperature of 225C to 20 mins and I also added an additional 5 minutes to oven time when I turn off the oven.  Finally,  I found that if I cut the bread after 24 hours I have a better texture.  Maybe it is altitude or no humidity in Colorado but the bread becomes much too dry after 2 or 3 days.  This bread is wonderful and it freezes very well if wrapped in freezer paper and then inserted in freezer bags.  Outstanding recipe, thanks.  Richard................

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Brilliant.

Thanks,

Juergen