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Seeded Rye Hot Soaker Boules. Pain de Siègle style of loaf, baked in a Sandwich Tin

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ananda's picture
ananda

Seeded Rye Hot Soaker Boules. Pain de Siègle style of loaf, baked in a Sandwich Tin

                                                               

Seeded Rye Hot Soaker Boules.

Pain de Siègle style of loaf, baked in a Sandwich Tin

The local flour theme continues….

After 2 recent homebaking sessions, my wheat levain has now joined the rye sour; both are built from traditional, local and organic flours.

I made 3 boules using a seeded rye hot soaker with a wheat leaven, a very simple formula for a sandwich bread, leavened with rye sour, and using the Gilchesters Farmhouse in the final dough with an 85% hydration! [Think high extraction flour here!]   Oh! We had the family round today, so I also made pizzas with homemade tomato sauce with garden herbs, and a variety of lovely toppings [from: artichokes, capers, olives, anchovies, flaked salmon, fresh basil, buffalo mozzarella or creamy Lancashire cheese.   The dough was made with a stiff wheat levain [60% hydration, just 20% pre-fermented flour], overall dough hydration was just over 76%.   No photos, sorry; but I made them as 3 tray-baked, skinny bottomed, hence crisp based, pizzas.   I gave the finished dough about 8 hours slow proof in the fridge before rolling out the bases and docking them prior to topping and baking.

  1. 1.    Seeded Rye Hot Soaker Boules

I built the leaven with 3 refreshments.   Final amounts of flour and water only are shown, but I started with 80g levain and refreshed from there.

I made 3 boules: 1 @ 1.5kg, 1 @700g and 1 @ 940g

Material

Formula [% of flour]

Recipe [grams]

1. Wheat Levain

 

 

Gilchesters Organic Pizza Flour

20

300

Water

12

180

TOTAL

32

480

 

 

 

2. Seeded Rye Hot Soaker

 

 

Bacheldre Organic Dark Rye

13.3

200

Pumpkin Seeds

6.7

100

Sesame Seeds

11.3

170

Salt

1.7

26

Boiling Water

37.6

564

TOTAL

70.6

1060

 

 

 

3. Final Dough

 

 

Wheat Levain [from above]

32

480

Hot soaker [from above]

70.6

1060

Gilchesters Organic Pizza Flour

60

900

Gilchesters Organic Farmhouse Flour

6.7

100

Water

45

600

TOTAL

214.3

3140

Overall Pre-fermented Flour

20

 

Overall Hydration

94.6 on flour

[80.2% with seeds]

 

Method:

  • Make the hot soaker and final refreshment of the levain the night before, about 6 hours ahead of use if possible.   Cover and leave ambient.
  • Mix the soaker with the flour and water needed for the final dough.   Once properly combined, leave covered on the bench for 1 hour.   Add the leaven and work up to a soft dough.   Brush the bench with a little olive oil, to allow the dough to rest and condition, covered.   Leave 3 hours, using S&F regularly to develop the dough.
  • Scale and divide as desired and mould dough pieces round.   Brush the tops with a little water, and dip into a seed mixture.
  • Prove upside down in Bannetons for 3 hours.
  • Bake in a pre-heated oven with masonry, and utilise steam.
  • Cool on wires

 

  1. 2.    Pain de Siègle in a Sandwich Tin

A really simple formula.   The rye sourdough was given 2 refreshments over 2 days.   The only flour in the final dough was Gilchesters Organic Farmhouse flour, which I am informed has an extraction rate of c.85%, and is beautifully milled.   The hydration overall is an impressive 85%, and I was able to mould this loaf just before panning!   Not bad when the weight is over 1.5kg!

Again, figures for flour and water totals only are given for the sour.   The recipe made 1 large loaf in a Pullman Pan.

Material

Formula [% of flour]

Recipe [grams]

1. Rye Sourdough

 

 

Bacheldre Organic Dark Rye

25

210

Water

41.7

350

TOTAL

66.7

560

 

 

 

2. Final Dough

 

 

Rye Sourdough [from above]

66.7

560

Gilchesters Organic Farmhouse Flour

75

630

Salt

1.8

15

Water

43.2

363

TOTAL

186.7

1550

 

Method

  • Use autolyse principle, to combine flour and water with the sour, and leave, covered, for ½  hour.
  • Add the salt and mix the soft dough to strengthen.   I used a small hand mixer with hook attachments.
  • Bulk prove for 1 hour
  • Use scant flour to mould and shape the dough piece for panning.
  • Prove for 3 hours
  • Bake for 1½ to 1¾ hours at 190°C with steam.
  • De-pan and cool on wires.

Further thoughts:

  • Flavour and performance in these doughs are both significantly improved on the last attempts with all local flour.   The high ash content dictates generous hydration levels, but also necessitates a reduction in the amount of pre-fermented flour.   The wheat leaven needs to be less ripe than my previous effort.   This time, I had it about right.
  • The leaven is stiff, as the flour is thirsty, so 60% is less than generous hydration, but it gives greater tolerance in terms of fermentation rates.   I suspect a leaven made with the Farmhouse flour may need 70% hydration, so fermentation may be over rapid to give the best dough quality possible.
  • Photographs of all products, crust and crumb are attached; my apologies, they are not the best shots I've ever taken, it has to be said!

All good wishes

Andy

Comments

RonRay's picture
RonRay

I think there is enough information in this post to keep someone like me occupied for a very long time :-)

Ron

ananda's picture
ananda

Thanks Ron,

more information available on request, of course, should you need to delve further

Best wishes

Andy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Andy,

What a beautiful tableful of breads! The rye with hot soaker looks very interesting - I'll have to study that formula more.

Must have been lovely to share the pizzas with family. Great range of toppings! My regular is anchovy and olive but artichoke and Lancashire cheese also appeals...Must try pizza again.  Thanks for sharing this. 

With best wishes, Daisy_A

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Daisy_A,

Many thanks for your comments.

I gave 2 of the seeded breads away to the relatives.   Most of the sandwich bread is in the freezer.   We attacked the other seeded bread for breakfast, but there's plenty left for work sandwiches tomorrow and Tuesday.   NO pizzas left.   I did have a bit of dough leftover, so I used that to make muffins with for lunch!

Note the use of a hot soaker to partially gelatinise the rye flour.   All the salt is in the soaker to prevent enzymatic activity.   It's a good formula...the hydration is HIGH!

Very best wishes

Andy

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Very nice write-up and great loaves, Andy.  Especially I am interested in your seeded hot soaker boule. Very nice crumb!

 Your decribe of your pizza made my mouth watering really... Artichoke is one of my favorite food.  Flaked salmon.. Very nice! 

Best wishes,

Akiko

 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Akiko,

Many thanks for your kind words.

A long bake is essential for the seeded bread, given the high hydration.   I baked the largest boule for 1 hour 10 minutes and it remained a soft and moist crumb, just baked through.

Best wishes

Andy

Franko's picture
Franko

Hi Andy,

Love the sounds of the Seeded Rye, just my kind of bread , but the Pain de Seigle is the most perfectly square sided tinned loaf I think I've ever seen. At 85% hydration it must have almost flowed into the tin to set up so well, a testament to your mixing skill and understanding of your local flour to achieve such a result. The crumb on both breads is as good as it gets, but the crust on the Seeded Rye caught my eye for it's open cell. You don't see that too often, and I've always thought of it as a mark of a great bread. Brilliant stuff Andy...as usual!

Franko 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Franko,

Thank you for your, as always, so very generous words.

The seeded rye is a really beautiful type of bread; crumb is so moist, proof levels have produced an open crumb, but the eating quality is of a chewy bread; very tasty.   Yes, the crust on the flour-topped boule really did open out nicely in the oven.   However, the larger loaf betrayed just as good a finished crumb from more fermentation, as opposed to the oven spring evident in this one.   Both were very pleasing results.

The Pain Siegle had a tiny lip on the top where the dough burst the sealed lid!   I am thinking I just had slightly too much dough in the pan...probably go for 1350g next time.   The formula is bang-on, and you know that rye sourdough of mine is dynamically active.   However, the finished dough, once bulk proof was over, was very easy to handle, with just a dust of flour.   It moulded up quite easily for me to pan neatly.   I think that's why the final shape is so good; a wet dough, but still relatively easy to handle and shape.

Your comments are appreciated, as ever

Very best wishes

Andy

Syd's picture
Syd

Lovely breads, Andy. I like the scoring effect of the boule in the bottom left corner. It looks a bit like a seashell.  You always make such full flavoured breads with interesting names.  Wish I had access to the range of flours that you do, but still that is no excuse for not trying one of your recipes.  I will have to make do with what I can get here.

Best,

Syd

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Syd,

Thank you for your comments.   I always try and name the breads in a way which gives TFL posters a quick idea of the process and ingredients in each bread.   That way the title of the blog post gives an instant clue to the breads up for discussion.   I guess it means I end up with long-winded titles for some posts!

No, you don't need local flours to make these breads.   However, my current bread journeys have revealed the changes needed when using these flours to make the best of them in breadmaking.

Best wishes

Andy

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The seeded rye looks particularly delicious to me.

David

ananda's picture
ananda

Many thanks, David,

I remain determined to use rye flour in almost all the breads I make, even when learning to use these local wheatflours.   So much flavour, and the soaker technique is always great fun.

Really good to hear from you as always

Best wishes

Andy

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the pictures and the write ups on these breads.  

I have a question for you because I can't figure the answer out on my own....

You mention in your 'further thoughts section' on your pain de Siegle that:

The high ash content dictates generous hydration levels, but also necessitates a reduction in the amount of pre-fermented flour.

Can you please explain why they are related and why a reduction in the amount of pre-ferment is necessary?

Thanks,

Janet

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Janet,

Many thanks for yourt comments.

The answer to your question goes as follows:

High mineral and fibre content in flour generally requires higher levels of hydration.   BUT, a pre-ferment of any kind will ferment quicker in a "liquid" form as opposed to a "stiff" state.   This is simple food science; bacteria and yeast will thrive better in a more aqueous environment [Aw], so long as there is enough food supply from the carbohydrate in the flour.

High ash content means the flour will be fermented all the quicker, so the pre-ferment will ripen more rapidly.   So, keeping the starter stiff is one means to slow down fermentable activity.   Cutting down on the amount of pre-fermented flour in the formula is another way to prevent over-rapid ripening.

Note that in the Pain Siegle-type formula, that the Farmhouse flour left me adding water to 85% relative to total flour.   To slow down activity in the mineral rich environment of the high extraction flour, I therefore cut back on portion of added sourdough as leaven.

I hope that's a clear enough explanation; it is one of the keys to being able to take control of the fermentation processes into your own hands.

All good wishes

Andy

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hello Andy,
Thank you for this post - your rye breads, with their interesting formulas and ingredients, are beautiful!
I appreciate your reply to Janet. I tried to approximate high extraction flour when making a miche this past weekend.
This effort was somewhat unsuccessful; I will try again considering your comments re: managing fermentation with high-ash flour.
Thanks, from breadsong

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Thanks Andy!

Your explanation is great.  I have been baking with SD since the fall and am slowly understanding more and more of the intricacies involved with working with it....so many aspects to grasp but at least now I have more experience on which to frame the information I keep picking up here.

I bake with home milled grains so I have seen how the extra nutrients increase fermentation.....I didn't know about the use of a firmer starter or using less flour in a leaven to slow things down so now I have a new tool to play around with....  :-)

Mostly when I bake I follow formulas I get here or out of bread baking books.  I have often been puzzled by the differences in which formulas differ from one another and now I have another 'tool' to use when reading recipes so that I can tweek them to work with my grains..

Thank you again for explaining it to me in such a clear and concise way!

Janet

 

 

ananda's picture
ananda

Thank you both for your comments here, and sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

I'm deeply entrenched in marking student assignments for final grades just now, but the end is in sight!

There have been a good few interesting comments made on Shiao-Ping's recent post, but I thought I could maybe clarify a few things about high extraction flour here.

This is quite a good photo well worth studying [see here for a quite fascinating post on the latter activities of the much-missed Alan Scott : http://ncobfp.blogspot.com/2009/10/mill.html  ]

It's quite similar to the photo in Franko's post, here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21368/last-loaf-2010

The mill is on the right, stoneground, to mill wholewheat flour.   The bolter is on the left.   Up top is a cylinder covered with different grades of nylon which filters off different parts of the ground flour, which become finer and finer.   Underneath, you can see 3 funnels.   The first takes off the bran.   The second takes away the Semolina.   The 3rd will take away the "middlings", or maslin flour.   This should produce Unbleached White Flour as end result.

A high extraction flour would certainly see all the outer bran removed.   Basically, the sieving takes away grain components from the outer part, then moves slowly inward.   The ideal with high extraction is to remove all the bran, but to leave all the germ and the aleurone layer within the flour.   Hence, my use of the term " 85%"; the 15% bran component is removed, but the mineral-rich germ plus the magic aleurone layer are still included.

There are thus 2 drawbacks with trying to use a combination of wholemeal and white flours to try and mimic a high extraction flour.

Firstly: the wholemeal portion contains all the mineral matter in the flour, including the outer bran particles [in theory, see no. 2, below].   The white flour contains no element of alerone layer, or germ.   So you have a portion of 100% flour plus a portion of 72% extract.   Unfortunately, this does not give you 85% extract, as known as "High Extraction Flour".

I don't know quite how the French achieve this high extraction flour.   It is easy to achieve using the bolting system shown above.   Industrially, I suspect the flour is not passed through the very finest rollers in the process.   Note that French flour is almost universally roller-milled and has been for endless years, yet the flour is milled to "ash content".   I have a suspicion that much of the French milling is just conducted in a much gentler way.   Knowledgeable comments much appreciated here.   Calvel is quick to ridicule stoneground flour and insist that roller-milled flour is superior.   I agree in the sense that the industrial technique is far more efficient in extracting the endosperm from the rest of the grain without undue waste.   However, stonegrinding is a much more gentle process which generates less heat, therefore ensuring greater vitamin and mineral content in the resulting flour.   By illustration, please refer to the flour photographed here:

This is Gilchesters very finest flour, sold as "Pizza/Ciabatta" flour.   Extraction rate will be less than 70%.   Yet it contains considerably more vitamin/mineral/fibre content [ash] than industrially-milled white flour.

So, secondly...the big drawback with roller-milled wholemeal.   It is often not even wholemeal [wholewheat flour]!   The flour is wheat that is milled to white flour, then the fibrous matter is added back.   However, the germ oil is often removed permanently, thus giving greater "shelf-life" to the flour, at the expense of numerous nutritional, and fermentative benefits...oh well!   So, the extraction rate is indeed around 95 - 97%, but the nutritional content is severely compromised!

Food for thought!

Oh, and I dug this article up as well.   I sent it to Daisy_A as soon as I found it.   It fits well with this discussion in many ways.   The British "National Loaf" of World War 2 was apparently?? unpopular to the point where pressure led the post war Government to allow bakers to adopt white flour in bread, but to agree this should be fortified with certain vitamins and minerals to satisfy good dietary requirements.   See this link for a challenge to this wisdom:

http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPNS%2FPNS17_01%2FS0029665158000094a.pdf&code=9febab04c4856b6350aadfcbedad50cd

A fascinating article!

All good wishes

Andy

Syd's picture
Syd

Thanks for explaining that so clearly, Andy.  I was wondering why they would go to the trouble of first making white flour and then putting everything back again to make wholemeal.  It sounds counterintuitive, if not uneconomical.  However, if, in the process, they are removing the parts that might make the flour go rancid quickly, then it does make sense.  It is a pity, though, that nutritional value is lost, too.  I have always kept my wholemeal flour in the freezer to prevent it going rancid.  Does that mean I don't have to?

Best wishes,

Syd

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Hi Andy,

your informations are always very useful, but I want to share what a man from the  technical department of an industrial mill told me few months ago: he said that when using the steel rolls the flour heats much less than  when using the stone because the flour passes very fast and for a very short time under the six rolls, while under the stone they remain for much longer time. Moreover there are concerns that stone-milled flours may contain traces of the stone itself, that could damage the teeth. To sum it all up, I was convinced to abandon stone milled flours (not a big sacrifice, as they are so expensive...).

A member of the italian cooking forum I attend to told me that her flour milled by a small stone mill comes out definitely hot.

There's another thing that seems to be contraddictory from site to site: extraction rate. Somewhere I read that 100% e.r is flour obtained milling the whole grain (including the bran), while on other sites I read that 100% e.r. is flour obtained *after having removed the bran*, thus it should contain only the endosperm (consequently wholemeal flour should be >100% e.r.). Which is right?

Best wishes,

  Nico

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Nico,

Yes, I take your point that roller milling can be done in a relatively kind way.   I don't really have any problems with the industrial method per se.   Indeed I happily support a number of industrial millers and champion their flour.

However, I wouldn't be put off buying stoneground flour either.   Contamination is very unlikely, and the flour should have been sieved prior to leaving the mill to ensure no particles of stone are present.

Yes, I've felt the temperature of flour as it comes off the stones too, and agree there is a heating effect.   Again, I don't think this is too significant; not too warm to start destroying nutrients.

On Extraction Rates, I've always been very clear that the % extraction relates to the whole grain of wheat.   It doesn't make any sense relating it to the endosperm.   Are you not confusing the term "bran" with the really dry and fibrous coating [inedible] wrapped around any cereal grain?

My main issue with the industrial wholemeal is that it is not really the genuine article it claims to be, and is supposed to be, as enshrined in law.   It is white flour which has had the bran and germ added back.   But this is not necessarily the same bran and germ that were removed in the first place; it could come from a wholly different batch of wheat.   Additionally, it is all too likely that the mineral and flavour-rich germ oil has been removed altogether, promoting shelf life over taste, flavour and integrity.

That's my ho-hum!

Best wishes

Andy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Dear Andy and Nico,

This is a very interesting debate opening up here. In respect of this I've been reading the article below.  If anything it made me want even more stoneground, wholegrain and rye flour.....

http://www.soilandhealth.org/06clipfile/Nutritional%20charateristics%20of%20organic%20freshly%20stone%20-%20ground.htm

Best wishes, Daisy_A

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Daisy_A,

Your researching skills clearly on show here: what a good article.

I was awake very early this morning so sat and read through the whole piece.

Quite a few typos and errors I thought.   But very important content, and a Bibliography to keep anyone busy for a number of years to come I imagine.   I think this will be really helpful when I resume the MSc!

Many thanks for this

Andy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Andy,

Good to hear that the article was of interest and provided some good early morning reading! 

Very best wishes, Daisy_A

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Great posting!   Enough to lure me back into the kitchen!     The crumb shots still can't blur my mouth watering.  :)

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Mini!

So you do sometimes leave your kitchen then?   I look forward to reading about whatever you make next.

Yep, sorry, the photos are really not my best efforts.

Lovely to hear from you.

All good wishes

Andy

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Hi Andy, the crumb of the bread with the soaker seems to be very very soft. I guess that the soaker did its jobs wonderfully! All those seeds are the heaven of little mice like me :-)

I'm already fancying how to use at best that tinned bread, salmon and spreadable cheeses come to mind first!

Knocking at your blog is a bet already won!

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Nico,

It's really good to hear from you; so glad you managed to catch the blog post.

There's a couple of seeds still lurking on the kitchen floor, but the bread's long gone!   But, yes, moist it certainly was.

Almost 95% hydration on flour...you'd better believe it!

Well, funny you should mention accompaniments for the tinned bread: we're having tuna mayonnaise and salad sandwiches with this bread for our lunch tomorrow.   That's just what's in the cupboard at the moment; have to go shopping later in the week!

All good wishes

Andy

ps. I've decided to hold off from buying semolina flour.   I'm going to seek out some of the local flour when I get to visit Sicily in October, and bring some of that back to bake with at home.

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Hi Andy,

remind me when it's time. I have several friends in Sicily that know durum wheat flour brands one by one and always produce exceptional breads. One thing is sure: they never use any of the "big name" flours... for a reason!

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Nico,

We're staying in Castellammare del Golfo.   If you can help me to pick up a supply of genuinely local and small scale produced flour nearby, I would be very grateful indeed.

Yes, I'll come back to you nearer the time.

All good wishes

Andy

kim's picture
kim

Hi Andy,

Thank you so much about the info. You and Shiao-Ping clear up my confusion. I’m visiting local mill with local bakers soon. I think your information really help me understand more.  My best friend is going to bring me some Gilchesters flour in July when she visiting me, what flour do you recommends then? Since I milled my own flour at home for the past one years, I’m totally agree with you the whole grain flour taste so much better than store bought ones and your points also make sense to me. Thank you so much about the information and I learned so much from your post.

Kimmy

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Kimmy,

Where are you living now?   Where will your best friend be staying in July?

I suspect Gilchesters flour is only available locally.   We live in the far North of England.

Other flours I can recommend, available in the UK:

Shipton Mill: anything, outstanding flour! See: http://www.shipton-mill.com/home

Marriages: family firm milling high quality Organic Strong Wholemeal and White flour.   Information from Daisy_A suggests the Co. also mills for Waitrose.   See: http://www.marriagesmillers.co.uk/our_company/flour-millers-essex.html

Bacheldre: an old watermill in Wales milling traditional grains.   The Organic Dark Rye flour is the powerhouse behind my Rye Sourdough.   See: http://www.bacheldremill.co.uk/

Little Salkeld Watermill: we used this flour exclusively in the bakery I co-founded back in the 1980s.   An old watermill in lovely rural Cumbria which specialises only in milling Organic English wheat.   Mostly, this is grown in the North of England, and the mill usually have Biodynamically grown wheat milled to flour too.   See: http://organicmill.co.uk/

Carrs: Breadmaker flour.   An industrial flour without additives, of the highest quality.   This is their retail pack.   I use their commercial grades of flour in the bakery in College.   See: http://www.carrs-flourmills.co.uk/silloth/

If I lived further South, I'd like to check out Andy Forbes' flour from the "Brockwell Bake" initiative, and the Oxford Bread Group too.

I hope this information is useful and I'm glad to hear you found the post so informative.

All good wishes

Andy

kim's picture
kim

Thanks Andy,

I’m in US for now and my friend is going to stay with me this coming summer. She is in University of Cambridge campus area. I had tried Shipton mill flours, Waitrose flours and Brockwell Bake flour before; I loved them all but I remember correctly Brockwell Bake flour gave me very good result with my sourdough breads. I did visit Whissendine Windmill (I hope I spelled the name right) with my friends back in 2009.  I loved the visit and learned a lot from a very friendly windmill guy (cannot remember his name). I will pass your information to my friend since she also love to bake whenever she has time. I hope to visit England again next year maybe I can a good tour of your school for fun and meet you in person. You are very lucky to have so many selections of flours in England. Thank you.

Kimmy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Andy, Hi Kimmy,

The more I ponder it, the more I think we are blessed with access to a good range of flours in the UK. Thanks again Andy for what you have recommended to me. They have been very good to bake with. 

The Marriage's connection to Waitrose, first flagged by lumos, is confirmed in a quotation from correspondence between her and Marriage's in the comment below:

Waitrose flours

Wishing you both continued happy baking!     Daisy_A

kim's picture
kim

Hello Daisy,

You are really blessed with so many flours selection down in England especially locally milled flours. Thank you so much for confirming “the Marriage's connection to Waitrose” and I will pass your information to my friends. Thank again.

Kimmy