The Fresh Loaf

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Secrets of a soft, moist crumb?

Janknitz's picture
Janknitz

Secrets of a soft, moist crumb?

Trader Joe's sells an awesome 3-seeded sourdough loaf and a local market, Oliver's, has a similar loaf. I will feel like a great baking success if I can make a bread like these. 

What characterizes these breads besides the nice flavor is a very tender and moist crumb.  They have nice, crisp crusts and a pleasing (not overly sour) sourdough flavor.    These are straight doughs,  not enriched doughs.  The ingredients in the Trader Joe's bread are: 

"Unbleached wheat flour, water, sesame seeds, poppy seeds, sunflower seeds, sea salt, barley malt, Vit C"

I'm going to try to replicate something like these breads, but all my sourdoughs have a somewhat chewy crumb, regardless of the hydration level.   Are the additions of barley malt and Vitamin C part of the "secret" to getting that tender crumb?  It is a very nice crumb too, not fine and fluffy like Wonder bread, but very tender with small to medium irregular holes.  And, it doesn't fall apart or crumble easily. 

I know that KA sells ascorbic acid as a "dough conditioner".   Is that the key?  Am I more likely to get the tender crumb with AP rather than bread flour? 

 Any handling techniques that anyone can recommend or a formula that might come close?

Chuck's picture
Chuck

My own experience is that neither Ascorbic/Citric acid nor Barley Malt is the key to a soft crumb. What seems to matter more is matching the flour's gluten level to your need. Using a higher gluten level than you need generally results in a "chewy" crumb.

(This is more of a typical rule of thumb than a strict truth; things made with very high gluten flour can nevertheless avoid being "chewy"  ...if the handling is just right [but I personally haven't mastered this yet:-].)

It seems to me that "dough conditioners" fall into three classes: i] things that are already in any good quality flour you buy at the supermarket, ii] chemicals with long names that you really don't want to know about, and iii] a very few things that can be of use to the home baker. Speaking of things that can be of use to the home baker, the best thing I've found is plain old olive oil.

I keep three different flours on hand so I can manipulate the gluten level very easily just by choosing which flour to use. (Other alternatives are either mixing strong and weak flours in a proportion calculated to give you the gluten value you want, or mixing a weak flour with VitalWheatGluten.)

  • Gold Medal All Purpose - 10.5% protein (9.8%-11.0% publicized)
  • King Arthur All Purpose - 11.7%
  • King Arthur Bread - 12.7% (or Gold Medal Better for Bread - 12.2%-12.7%)

Ascorbic/Citric acid in tiny tiny quantities (parts per million !) will add to the rise (French bakers typically use it). But there may already be some in your flour (or your yeast!). Ascorbic acid is very expensive (Vitamin C tablets are the most reasonable source if you grind a tablet really fine with a mortar and pestle). Although different for most other uses, citric acid is largely equivalent for bread (in fact it's often called "sour salt") and is much cheaper, but using way too much can make your bread taste like lemons.

Barley malt in very small quantities will also add to the rise. But there's probably already some in your flour (in fact you may find it in the ingredients list if you read fine print on the flour sack), and if the total (what was already there + what you added) is just a little "too much", the bread will turn out "gummy" (maybe so much so you consider it "wrecked" and throw it away).

Edit: Sometimes an "improved" crumb is really a result of being able to handle the dough differently because of more rise. So it's possible what's needed is something that will enhance yeast growth, rather than something that affects the crumb directly. Something as simple as adding a bit of honey may allow you to get the crumb you want.

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

with Chuck that you are probably using a too strong flour. If you don't want to change it you can try to use a good amount of liquid preferment (equal part of water and flour + the needed starter), done with at least 1/3 of the flour. It should help.

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi,

Yes agreed with both posters comments about flour selection.   Nico's comment on pre-fermented flour is pertinent.

Just to clarify that there is a difference between citric acid and ascorbic acid.   I found a bit about it here: http://www.livestrong.com/article/164362-difference-between-citric-acid-and-ascorbic-acid/ although it's not the most profound article in the world.   It makes the key point that citric acid occurs naturally in fruit, whereas ascorbic acid is manufactured.

From a breadmaking point of view the 2 are used for opposite purposes!

Ascorbic acid is an oxidiser which builds strength into the dough by helping to create cross bonds, known as the di-sulphide bridge.   Citric acid is a dough relaxant and actually breaks down these cross bonds.   Hence it is commonly found in puff pastry, as it encorages better machining in the dough.

Hope that helps

Andy

SteveB's picture
SteveB

Hi Andy,

Citric acid and ascorbic acid differ in their molecular structures.  Both are found naturally or can be synthesized.  There is no difference between enantiomerically pure ascorbic acid and Vitamin C.

 

SteveB

www.breadcetera.com

ananda's picture
ananda

I knew the article I found was not too good.

But it was the functional differences in the dough which I really wanted to get across.   You will know far more about this than me.   Do you agree with my explanation here?

Does your last sentence mean that synthesized [manufactured] ascorbic acid and Vitamin C from natural sources are identical?   I'm afraid I 've not come across the word "enantiomerically"

Thanks for clarifying

Best wishes

Andy

SteveB's picture
SteveB

Hi Andy,

Having developed a reputation for putting Dan DiMuzio to sleep with my technical explanations, I'll keep this one short.  :>)

At the molecular level, ascorbic acid exists as two non-superimposable mirror image isomers known as enantiomers.  The enantiomers are designated as having either a D- or an L- configuration.  It is the L-isomer that is found in nature.  Hence the qualification in my post above that 'enantiomerically pure' ascorbic acid is identical to Vitamin C.

Unlike ascorbic acid, the molecular structure of citric acid has no such molecular asymmetry.

Regarding the functional differences between the two organic acids, you are quite right in that ascorbic acid is used for its redox (reduction/oxidation) potential.  As I understand it, ascorbic acid within a dough is enzymatically oxidized to dehydroascorbic acid.  It is the dehydroascorbic acid which, in turn, oxidizes the sulfhydryl (or sulphydryl, depending upon which side of the pond one resides) groups in gluten, forming disulfide bonds (and thus strengthening the gluten framework) and regenerating ascorbic acid in the process.

Citric acid has no comparable redox activity and is used solely for its acidity.  The only time I've come across the use of citric acid in bread making is as an additive to make sourdough bread taste more sour (what I consider to be, in Woody Allen's words, "a travesty of a mockery of a sham!").  Not being a professional bread baker, though, I am woefully ignorant of the use of dough additives in commercial bread manufacture.

Cheers,

SteveB

www.breadcetera.com

 

 

 

ananda's picture
ananda

That's not good, to be sending Mr. DiMuzio to sleep Steve!

You probably know that I encourage bakery students to use the natural and complex means to dough improvement through leavens and pre-ferments.   Knowledge of what all the different functional ingredients do is very instructive in this.   A root to further knowledge, perhaps?

So, it is the oxidation process you describe to strengthen the dough that I am familiar with.   Citric acid reduces dough, in that it breaks down the structure, making the dough extensible, rather than elastic.   So the dough becomes easier to roll out.

Thanks for your technical explanation; I'm still wide awake, by the way!

All good wishes

Andy

yy's picture
yy

Steve, where were you when I was studying for the MCAT?!

I do enjoy your scientific explanations of the baking process, and I think it fills an otherwise neglected niche in this online community. Keep the ambien coming.

flournwater's picture
flournwater

I'm not sure which "Oliver's" bread you are referring to, but in the Trader Joe's 3 Seeded variety I think you'll find that the amount of oil and the type of oil used has a great deal to do with its texture.

Janknitz's picture
Janknitz

First, from what I can see on the ingredients list, there is NO oil in the Trader Joe's bread.  That doesn't preclude me from using some, if it gets the desired texture, though. 

As for Citric Acid vs. Ascorbic acid, my bad in not discerning the difference.  My husband is a wine maker and gifted me with a bottle of citric acid crystals that are sometimes used in the wine making process--I grew up with my mother using "sour salt" to make her cold beet borsht sour and sometimes I would sneak a few crystals to suck on.  I see that KA sells it as a "dough conditioner" and since I already have it handy . . .  but I've never used it before in bread (it's great in beet borsht!). 

I haven't tried this bread yet, I'm just thinking it through, and trying to determine what will give me the results I seek. 

I plan to use a 100% sourdough starter plus some yeast, Gold Medal AP flour, salt, water and poppy seeds for the dough.  I was wondering if adding some barley malt or citric acid might help, but it sounds like they are not going to make much difference.  Now I've got to decide on hydration levels, and determine if some sort of preferment will help me get the texture I'm seeking.