The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Cold rye soaker

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nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Cold rye soaker

Hi,


recently I talked to my rye pusher complaining that several soakers done with hot water didn't come out sweet, or at least not as sweet as I remembered from previous occasions. He told me that if not done properly the temperature of the water may denaturate the enzymes and make more harm than good; he invited me to do the soaker with salt and room temperature water. Salt is needed to stop every kind of fermentation and supposedly -even in large quantities- it doesn't minimally affect amylase. Soaking time should last between 12 and 24 hours.


I followed his advice and wow, it really worked great! I did my usual rye bread with this formula:


-soaker with 4 gr of salt, 180 gr of r.t. water and 150 of rye flour - 24 hours


-poolish with 15 gr of starter, 180 of r.t. water and 150 of rye flour - 24 hours


-dough with 6 gr of salt and 200 of rye flour


-10 minutes at 250°, 40 minutes at 200°, rest in the oven until cooled.


 


The bread came out really sweet, even sweeter than all breads made previously without a very long baking, even a touch darker. Next time I'll add all the salt to the soaker.


I knew that this tehnique would sweeten the bread somehow, but not that it would work at the same extent as a soaker with how water.


Sometimes things work out better when they are easy:-)


 

Mebake's picture
Mebake

This just proves ingenuity behind Peter Reinhart's Whole grain breads concept.


Soaking Whole grain flour indeed improves the flavor and texture of such breads.


post some pics, Nico..

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Hi Khalid,


as you probably know my pictures are some of the worst on the planet, but for the sake of the report here it is ;-)


I don't know if the color looks darker than usual to you, but it's a serious improvement respect to my previous bread with this recipe. You tell me.



 


I never read Reinhart's book. Can you explain?

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Not bad for an all rye bread, Nico. Is is levain based (sourdough) or yeatsed? levain breads tend to have a better structure due to the acidity of the starter.


Peter Reinhart is the author of "Whole Grain Breads". In his book, he stresses on the importance of soaking whole grain flours with room temperature water for at least 24 hours with salt. Soaking flours makes the end product sweeter due to the action of the amylaze enzymes on the flour during soaking.


This book is worth the buy. If you are serious about whole grain baking, i suggest you try a recipe from his book. A member of TFL: hanseata has some recipes based on Reinhart's methods.


 

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

I never use yeast in my breads.


I know Karin is  "rye hard"  :) , I follow her threads.


The PH of my poolish after 24 hours was 4.0, I'd say it was ideal. Anyway I'm more interested in flavor than in crumb openness. After all it's what rye is all about.


Thanks for the advise!

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Haha!


Karin

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:) 

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

it's my very personal concept of rye bread, maybe a bit distorted.


Andy rightfully said that I have a sweet tooth, so I prove him right :-)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I had my starter already going for today but I put 150g rye with 4% (6g) salt and 184g water to also soak overnight.  Today I had to recalculate my loaf flour and water and it is bulk rising.  I was surprised my water came out so similar, I just added until I liked the consistancy and weighed it after mixing.   I used a total of 700g flour, 200g bread flour so it is a 72% rye.  I used a larger portion of starter, 280g including altus all very ripe.


Already the dough is darker and a certain pleasant aroma is present from the soaker.  After 15 hrs, the soaker had a smooth tight texture (I think a good sign) and blended well with the starter.    Will let you know how it comes out.


Mini

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi nico,


Many thanks for sharing the results of this experimentation. I have been baking 100% ryes with simple soakers recently. i will try this approach. I think the dash of salt will also be good to restrain my starter during the levain build and prevent the culture becoming too acidic.


With kind regards, Daisy_A

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

and maybe the salt will also slow does the yeasts long enough to permit the enzymes to sweeten the levain (even more). I wonder how many sugars will be left intact and how many will be eatern by the yeasts the moment the dough enters the oven.


 


Mini, I'm very curious to know how your bread will come out.

kolobezka's picture
kolobezka

Hi nico,


your loaf looks nice. I now bake a 100% rye at least once a week and I will certainly try your approach.


Please what kind of rye flour do you use - medium or whole rye?


Do you put thee dough into the baking forms immediately after mixing and then let it ferment - for how long, approximately?


Thanks, zdenka

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

I use whole rye. I put the dough in the form immediately after mixing and I let it proof until it almost doubles, generally 2 hours.


 


Daisy, thanks. I'm sure this bread won't disappoint you.

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Just for the chronicle this kind of cold soaker is called for in many german rye bread recipes. It's called quellstuck.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Cool - always good to know what the proper terms are! Thanks for posting this, nico. 


Daisy_A

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Nico,


I have some seeds soaking without salt which I intend to use in an overnight fermented dough tonight---wheat levain.


I'm about to set up an all-rye loaf using your soaker with salt method.   I assume quellstuck is cold soak, and Bruhstuck is hot soak.   Zavarka, to me, has always been a "boil-up" where water on a rolling boil produces maximum starch gelatinisation.


You mention no additional water in your final dough above.   I would calculate overall hydration therefore as being 72%.   Given I know you and I have agreed on the magic 85% figure in the past, I wondered if you could confirm what your hydration really is in this formula?


Many thanks; great topic, as always


Andy

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

I confirm that the hydratation is that low: 72%. The reason is simple: after 1 day of soaking both the soaker and the levain were much thinner than when I prepared them. Evidently either the soluble components of the flour dissolved  in the water or the enzymes released a lot of sugars, or maybe both. I was as surprised as you to see how much flour I had to add.


Yesterday I did another soaker using a corsely ground flour obtained from crushed seeds, a flour with a gritty touch. The soaker didn't get thinner, rather the opposite: it thickened. The level of sweetness is obviously lower than in the soaker made with superfine rye flour, but this change was obviously to be expected.


Let me know how your bread turns out!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I had a few problems with the loaf, more from a weak very sour starter.   I didn't notice any extra moisture.   It did bake faster than before and so I got over browning in a few spots. I almost overproofed it.  The crumb is darker.   The taste is intensive.   I will try this again soon.  Is there such a thing as a sweet & sour black loaf?


Mini

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Mini,


did you notice any difference in loaf volume and crumb consistence? I hope you liked the differences in taste and color.


Sweet and sour is exactly how I feel my bread.

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Nico and Andy are right. In German recipes cold soaker is called "Quellstück" (soaked piece), and a soaker made with boiling water poured over the flour is called "Brühstück" (scalded piece).


Since I didn't know what the different properties of hot or cold soaker were, I looked it up at "der-sauerteig.de".


Brühstück or scald/hot soaker is used for smaller amounts of coarse ground flours or chops, not only to soften them and enhance the taste, but also to make those coarse grinds better digestible. But hot soakers have a disadvantage - the protein threads congeal from the boiling water. So the crumb can suffer, if the coarse ground flour part is too large, or finer milled flours are scalded.


The cold soaker (Quellstück) can also be used for soaking seeds like flax etc. Cold water leaves more of the aroma in the flour and protein threads are not denaturated. Cold soakers work also well with larger amounts of flour.


I use mostly cold soakers, but for some of my Tyrolean mini breads (with a smaller coarse grind content) the recipes call for a scald. For my Vollkornbrot I use (P.R.'s version) of mash, rye chops mixed with 165 F hot water, and then kept warm for 3 hours at 150 F.


Karin