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Sourdough Typology - SJSD, SFSD or what?

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GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Sourdough Typology - SJSD, SFSD or what?

As I begin the mental preparation for trying to bake David's San Joaquin Sourdough this coming weekend, I am distracted by a matter of semantics and typology. I am familiar with the origin of "San Joaquin Sourdough" (see David's 12/14/09 comment at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14140/san-joaquin-sourdough-another-variation-produces-best-flavor-yet).  I assume the name was coined as a reference to the Great Valley in which Fresno is located, where he lives.  I am in San Francisco, which has a sourdough of its own.  But I'll be be baking San Joaquin Sourdough in San Francisco, with a starter that evolved from David's starter from the San Joaquin.  It may be that my starter, born of generations of native San Franciscan yeasts, albeit descended from earlier generations of Fresnite yeasts, is now a San Francisco Sourdough Starter.


Perhaps my bread ought to be named for some geographic feature located between Fresno and San Francisco.  Maybe Mt. Diablo.   "Pane di Diavolo" sounds pretty sexy.  Or perhaps it should be named for the town of Fort Bragg, where that original glob of David's starter came into my possession.  In fact, my starter had bred for many generations in a jar that formerly held Pudding Creek Farms Ollalieberry Jam, made in Fort Bragg.


Before I make myself crazy trying to give a name to a bread that hasn't even been made yet, I should inquire whether there are typological principles that apply to the varieties of Sourdough Bread.  Is there a quasi-governmental body that enforces sanctioned naming conventions?  Does a new formula need to be a certain distance removed from a previously named formula before it gets its own name?  Or do we just get to make it up as we go along?  I kinda suspect it's that last one, but I don't want to get into any trouble.


Thanks for any help.


Glenn

patnx2's picture
patnx2

and we'll see. lol patrick  from modesto

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Glenn,


The Committee on Un-named Sourdough Starters (CUSS) met off and on and off again from time out of mind. They have never been able to agree on a Chairperson, bylaws, membership requirements or where to go for dinner. They did agree on a mission statement once, according to the legend, but, since they could not agree on the proper format for minutes, none were kept, and the mission statement was never passed on to succeeding generations, if it ever existed. Oral tradition has not recorded whether the mission statement provided any guidance as to the CUSS's stand on naming conventions.


I believe you to be quite safe in naming your starter whatever you please without fear of discovery, not to mention adverse sanctions, by CUSS. However, additional guidance might be obtainable from their attorneys at the firm of Kamut, Rye, Einkorn and Yeastfahrt.


Happy Baking!


David

pmccool's picture
pmccool

Since, as David notes, the governing body (thank you, David, for informing me of its existence) has not exercised governance, there is considerable latitude.


For your peripatetic starter, perhaps "Roadie"?  Or "Charlie", if you are a Steinbeck fan?  Or the eponymous "GSSD"? 


Or simply "Saints", after dropping the Juan and the Francisco?  Some might see it as depersonalizing or anti-Hispanic, perhaps, but the bigger risk is that the NFL might smother you with lawyers.


So many possibilities...


Paul

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

I'm positively baffled. It seems there's not only significant different philosophies when it comes to weight vs. volume measures across the Atlantic, but also when the question of sourdough identification is addressed.


In Europe, there is a dedicated committee, organised under EFSA (European Food Safety Agency), that register and provide sourdough bakers with unique IDs of their starter cultures. The committee, in typical beaurocratic fashion christened ECFSSIANR (European Commission For Sourdough Starter Identification And Name Register), consists of a board of twenty elderly sourdough statesmen, which are in turn appointed by another committee, for five year terms. It is not uncommon that the statesmen sit one period, leave to take positions in different parts of the EFSA, before returning to ECFSSIANR for a second, third or even fourth term.


The ECFSSIANR meets quarterly, last time in a splendid mansion previously reserved to old DDR's most prominent head-of-state visitors. They usually enjoy seven or eight meal dinners, enjoy luxurious French wines and liquors, and partake in discussions of sourdough anecdotes to the tones of Chopin nocturnes played by aspiring European piano virtuosos. At the end of every five year term, a brief, confidential report is issued to a control commission within the EFSA.


Despite ECFSSIANR's unquestionable authority and vast appreciation of life's riches and of good food, the European naming scheme is really quite simple. The system is designed as follows:


<Two letter country code>-<Two letter flour ID>-<Five number ID tag>.


Take my rye starter as an example. I live in Norway, so my two letter country code is NO. The majority of flour in my starter is rye, so the flour ID is simply RY. The ECFSSIANR's number generator appointed me the ID tag 45023. So the official name of my starter is: NO-RY-45023. I keep the sourdough starter ID card next to my driver's license in my wallet.

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Hansjoakim--


Thanks for the fascinating information.  I have often thought that American individualism breeds both benefits and detriments. We are a disorderly people.  Some call it "freedom".  Some call it chaos.  


How are the ECFSSIANR's rules enforced?  Are citations given for baking without a license? If cited, do jackbooted agents confiscate your oven?  


If this issue were to come to the attention of American political activists (particularly the dry activists), they would call for a Congressional investigation focusing on the rights of yeast.  I mean, the European system of classification would lead to violations of the inherent rights of micro-organisms to procreate freely.  If the Sourdough Puritans wanted to prohibit the intermixing of two strains, States could pass laws against yeast miscegenation.


We could have another Civil War!

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

Hi Glenn,


Indeed, this is but one of the many cultural differences that we often forget. Much has been said about the cultural differences between our respective continents by women and men infinitely wiser and more knowledgeable than me, so I will not attempt to re-address them here.


The 20th century taught millions of Europeans the (arguably) most effective way of enforcing a set law and order: State terror. Legions of agents from the KGB, Stasi, Securitate and similar organisations, now retired of course, are rumoured to be on ECFSSIANR's payroll. The spiderweb of informants, double agents, whisperers and ECFSSIANR apparatchiks is, in many ways, seen as a natural extension of the situation in much of Europe during post-war 20th century.


Needless to say, the strategic planting of unidentified and unregistered sourdough cultures on political rivals is a tremendously efficient way of advancing your way towards the top in the EU beaurocracy.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I had no idea that the regulation of sourdough starter naming provided such a wonderful example of our cultural differences.


In our country, we have had a few very transient albeit traumatic episodes of state terror, generally during wartime. More usually, the "state" is in terror of the citizenry. And, since the citizenry is seldom of one mind, the federal government is most often paralyzed by roughly equal factions attempting to pull policy in opposite directions. To some, this is the ideal state of things, of course.


The inability of CUSS to formulate policy, in contrast to the ECFSSIANR, illustrates this difference quite well. The difficulty the CUSS has had deciding where to go for dinner in contrast to the ECFSSIANR's sybaritic banquets points up the disadvantages of our chaotic approach marvelously. 


On the other hand, the absolute freedom Glenn has to name his starter without government interference demonstrates an advantage of the American approach. His appealing to others for guidance illustrates our reflexive turning to democratic processes and our enduring yet futile wish to resolve problems through debate leading to consensus. Of course, we also have a constitutional obligation to protect the rights of minorities and to not deprive others of their rights or property without due process.


Thus, you can appreciate the benefits, in American cultural context, of CUSS' reluctance to promulgate policy which would inevitably result in innumerable interminable law suits based on the residual powers of States to regulate matters not constitutionally reserved to the federal government, the rights of individuals to property and free speech (naming sourdough starters as you will).


The hypothetical positions of various important and vocal special interests such as organized labor, the religious right, environmentalists, gun owners and former corporate executives who have bought themselves seats in the U.S. Senate on these matters, I will leave for later.


David

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

One can now be arrested for covering a proofing loaf with a black cloth...aka a "Bread Burka".

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi hansjoakim, Hi Glenn,


Well, Hans Joakim, you certainly nailed the cultures of several European committees that I know of LOL. Do they have to have a sub-committee to deal with anomalies - including people that have both rye and wheat starters? Do we have to have dual registration (and pay two fees)?


On another note I'm pretty sure that 'Europe' can't be thought of as one homogenous culture, despite legislation from Brussels. I'm not a 'Little Englander' but have to report that as here in the UK in the same way that we still drink pints, drive on the left, have (rightly or wrongly), not adopted the Euro and also refused any form of national identity card, we have also opted out of the Sourdough registration scheme. My sourdough starters are simply called 'Sydney' (the sourdough wheat starter), Rosie (the rye starter) and a San Francisco starter, which I'm thinking of calling Carlo. ;-). 


I do have to say, however,  following your and Mini's input, that do I appreciate the trans-European Consortium CABRI's (Common Access to Biological Resources and Information) statement on 'culture collections'  that '[a] culture collection is a long term commitment'. Not wrong there chaps! 


http://www.cabri.org/guidelines/micro-organisms/M101.html


As I understand it Glenn's original post also raises the issue of how far a bread formula and recipe needs to be adapted before it achieves legitimacy as a new bread with a new name.  This has been much debated recently. Copyright law in the US states that bread formulae are not copyrighted but the fuller text giving method and directions may be. Of course TFL draws on texts published internationally and other countries' laws may differ. Fuller debate on   this thread.


This has been a sensitive issue recently, as debates about internet publication of an adapted version of James McGuire's formula for pain au levain show. Fuller details on     this thread     and      this blog.


I've not found guidance on what constitutes an 'adapted' bread formula to be that clear so have drawn on experience in modern languages where 'adaptation' is also a central key term. (I'm not talking about printing recipes verbatim here - to me that obviously requires permission from copyright holders). Guidance in modern languages as I understand it suggests that an adapted text needs to make 'substantial' changes to the original, acknowledge its original source and ideally any interim or 'bridge' texts.


I know that as a lawyer Glenn will be well aware that a  term like 'substantial' can be split many ways. However you give David's San Joaquin Sourdough as an example. To me it is possible to see how this bread substantially adapts leading french-arabic baker Anis Bouabsa's award winning baguette formula - changing a yeasted dough to sourdough, a white dough to one with mixed grains and a baguette to a boule or bâtard. David clearly also acknowledges his original source plus the 'bridge' work of Janedo in communicating and adapting Anis' formula. 


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/12383/san-joaquin-sourdough


(Original approximation of Anis' formula and method   here).  


I'm not trying to set myself up in the stead of any committee to give David my 'stamp of approval' for this! It's just that as legal and other protocols develop by drawing on precedent, this seems like a reasonable precedent. 


Kind regards, Daisy_A

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

I will try to exercise my vast freedom of expression wisely.  

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

I suggest we fill the void left by CUSS.  We could call it the Bread Rising Organisms Tribunal.  


 

EvaGal's picture
EvaGal

Perhaps I missed it in the original post:will you be selling this bread, or just baking it for household use?  If the former, a catchy appealing name like you suggested would be good.  If the latter, it depends on your audience; teenagers need a name with real pizaz and flavor to match, spouses prefer a name that compliments their intelligence and important contribution to society, and parents appreciate something familiar that doesn't sound like it will upset the digestion or teeth and that keeps bad cholesterol low.


 

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Perhaps I should call this bread "My Grain".  All these naming choices are giving me a headache.

Marni's picture
Marni

All I know is that there must have been a LOT of laughter around the table in the Snyder house when you two were growing up! 


Marni

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Once our compendium of policies regarding sourdough starter naming is complete, I propose it be included in the TFL FAQ.


This information is too valuable to be lost to new bakers and future TFL generations.


Thank you, Glenn, for prompting this exchange.


David

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven
GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

I see the article observes that "the number of uncultured (micro)organisms far exceeds that of the cultured ones".  This is consistent with my experience of organisms.


I guess a sourdough swap would be a kind of cultural exchange.


Glenn

RobynNZ's picture
RobynNZ

 


Before making such a public statement in this internationally respected forum I had to hastily submit my proposal for retrospective approval of the name I have been calling my SD to The New Zealand Leavened Bread Name Registration Board Te Poari Kairehita Ingoa Rewana o Aotearoa (NZLBNRBPKIRA). As a NZ ambassador on this site, I must take care how I represent this upright little country.


The proposal will be open for public comment for three months. An online submission form for dealing with objecting and supporting submissions will be set up. A significant number of supporting submissions are expected. (If not, the usual recipients of gifts of said SD will need to seek off-island sources of naturally leavened bread, at great expense.)


Consultation with the baking fraternity (for confirmation that product to be named is indeed SD), local iwi/indigenous people (to ensure there is no tapu/restriction to the use of the name, a Maori one, particularly as it is for a food item) local community (to confirm that in order to avoid complications associated with the dual naming policy of NZLBNRBPKIRA, the proposal of a Maori name, with no English version, is acceptable) and other authorities such as The New Zealand Geographic Board Ngā Pou Taunaha o Aotearoa (as the proposed name is one which the Board has already assigned to an island), and Biosecurity New Zealand Tiakina Aotearoa (to confirm than none of the organisms used in the manufacture of said SD are a biosecurity risk) will be undertaken to ensure the principles, policies, guidelines and practices of NZLBNRBPKIRA have been applied.


I am relying on the timing of my submission, coinciding as it does with the Act of Parliament (Canterbury Earthquake Response and Recovery Act 2010) hastily drawn up and passed in the wake of the recent massive earthquake in the Christchurch region which does away with the need for excess form filling and allows for all manner of retrospective applications, being of significant advantage and feel confident that approval will be obtained.


The name will become official when it is gazetted following final determination by NZLBNRBPKIRA. I will report back to TFL at that time.


Please note, as NZ topped the 2009 Corruption Perceptions Index


http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009/cpi_2009_table


it was decided attachment of any bread to the submission to NZLBNRBPKIRA would be futile.




 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Then the rumors are true! New Zealand's regulatory system was modeled after the U.S. Joint Commission on the Accreditation of Hospitals' Manual for Hospital Surveyors. With the addition of your laudable cultural sensitivity, of course.


We eagerly await word of your proposal's approval. 


David

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

before dragging them here to Europe!  Just Kidding... not.  Why settle for typology when taxonomy is the "precise" way to go!  Yes, I know, no pioneer stories and wagon trails.


Hans, I didn't find the ECFSSIANR but putting in the title led me to the EFSA.  The European Food Safety Authority put an interesting paper together (PDF file) Introduction of a Qualified Presumption of Safety (QPS) approach  which has useful information about the various scientific names and where many of the beasties can be found and what they're capable of.  Quite interesting and easy to follow and in English (and Latin.)


It does mean applicants may have to get a starter analyzed, which may cost a small fortune.  Try page 52 to find yeasts.   Interesting stuff on beasties throughout. 


sc_op_ej587_qps_en.pdf


Glenn, I would name it after David so if your bread flops....


Mini  :)

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

 



So many possibilities...



"SnydeBrot"


"Pain de Freres"


"Pan de Santos Francisco y Joaquin"


"KGB" (if I can make it exactly 1000 grams)


"US-AP-1830"


Whatever I call it, it will an American Bread produced from our Amber Waves of Grain, with a name chosen with all the freedom our Founding Fathers intended the First Amendment to confer upon me.  Don't tread on my dough!


I'm sure that proud loaf will be all puffed up with pure patriotism [sorry...didn't mean to spit on the screen].


Glenn

G-man's picture
G-man

Sounds delicious. I simply must learn your methods for working it into the dough.

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Surely you're aware that all proposed names must be submitted to Madame Candida Miller, GAS (Glorious Arbiter of Sourdough),  for nomenclature review and approval.


GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

She appears to be ovulating.

SteveB's picture
SteveB

This is the first time I've seen a runway model get a standing ovulation!


 


SteveB


www.breadcetera.com


 

EvaB's picture
EvaB

are you into that medical mari jane stuff, or just normally silly?


Everyone knows that sour dough picks its own name, regardless of the name one gives it, and forget naming bodies and govt institutions and silly stuff like that, its going to be itself no matter where it comes from, who gave it to whom and so on!


starters are like cats who have three names, the name its mother called it, the name it gives itself, and the name the humans use. So don't worry too much about its name, since it will never tell you what its secret name is anyway!

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Eva, 


There are few things more fun than naming.  I try to make up at least one word a day.  It keeps me on my flengsters.


You might have also noticed that David and I, as wells as Hansjoakim, like to make words from the first letters of each word in a phrase.  I might have a mild case of acronymphomania.


Glenn 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Glenn is an adherent to the Humpty-Dumpty school of semantics. *


David


* For more information, see Carroll, Lewis, Through the Looking Glass, Ch. 6.

EvaB's picture
EvaB

Oh dear, I may not be normal after all, but then I never claimed I was either, but have been told I was all my life, but then again there is that one in hundred thing, you know the dr or dentist say that only happens to one in hundred that have had that proceedure or drug or whatever, I keep getting told that, once it was one in 500, and once (gasp) 1 in 1000, so I guess normal is in the eye of the beholder! Or maybe the mind of the beholder, since its such a subjective thing.


And I do know what you mean about the the Looking Glass sematics, its been a long time since I read that, but hey, you don't forget strange and wonderful characters that easily. Not to mention the fact that some adult actually wrote such wonderful nonsense, OR IS IT NONSENSE, maybe its just the perception of the reader maybe in another dimension its perfectly normal! Hey there's that word again.


However, I wasn't actually complaining about the fun going on, but just wish I knew what the Canadian acronym was for the naming of SD, But so far I havent' found it, I know there must be one out there, oh pardon me, 2, the Quebec board has to be different you know, then there is the office of multiculturalism, which must have a say in all things, so as to not offend or forget any minority group in our wonderful country. That is groups that have immigrated here, they manage to forget the native groups quite easily. But that is another story!

EvaB's picture
EvaB

Gee whiz, must have got it from you guys! LOL


At least you enoy life, which is more than I can say of some people I know, a more grumpy glum crowd I have never met! But I can drive them to drink by being my silly self, and boy is that fun!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, EvaB.


I believe you are confusing "name" and "identity." 



In response to your query regarding "normally silly":


If by "normal" you mean "within two standard deviations of the mean," I believe I exceed this standard.


If by "normal" you mean "non-pathological," I believe my own silliness is quite normal.


If by "normal" you mean "conforming to a pattern associated with the subject," I admit to being "normally silly."


Glenn, as a member of Tasha's staff, is far better qualified than I to address the similarities between cats and starters.


I hope this helps.


David

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

 


IMG_1550


 


Onion-Curry-Cheese Bread from the Cheese Board Collective Works.


It ain't pretty, but it tastes like the memories of my wasted youth (gradual school, Berkeley, 1977).


Blog post to follow.


Glenn

EvaB's picture
EvaB

wonder when they are going to get that active internet off the ground, so we can sample the lovely looking tasty sounding Berkeley bread.


Hey just a bit euphoric here, I just had a lovely shed delivered, 10 x 16 feet, and wow its going to be perfect! However its a bummer, in that it doesn't have a stove, so can't convert it to a kitchen. I could use a nice large kitchen, oh well, there is always that dynamite, I can move the wall in the present kitchen.


Of course that is not legal according to many Canadian institutions with letters instead of words for names, mostly the RCMP who really frown on people using dynamite! FOR ANYTHING! Talk about restrictive!


However I have been considering this naming thing, and will have to investigate further, and get a starter going, since its not going to be one of the already named starters like SF, or SJ I shall have to think long and hard for a name, although I suppose I could name it Unchaga (which is either Cree or Bever or Dene for Peace) since I do live in the Peace River Block of BC, will really have to think on this, and find out what and where I have to submit the name to, although there may not be a board yet in Canada for this.


 

possum-liz's picture
possum-liz

I really shouldn't give an Australian comment on naming because I am a long transplanted but 'unnaturalized' Yank. Due to the current state of our govenment and the general distrust of authority that is natural to Australians, sourdough bakers will ignore all requests to be registered or otherwise organized. There is,however, a love of geneology in this country so there may be some attempts to link starters to the first fleet or even San Fransisco.


Liz

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Sound a lot like cats and, if Eva is to be believed, like sourdough starters.


David

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

ECFSSIANR logo

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

I have heard from my pen pal, Thurli Tichtov, in the Unified Republic of Bosconia (URP), a small and reclusive Socialist nation near Bulgaria.  Bosconian Security has prohibited him from posting on the World Wide Web, but he sent me a letter describing the state of bread regulation in his country.  


Bread is the essential component of the Bosconian diet.  In fact, all they eat is bread, ferns, wild onions and the meat of their native hamster-like rodents.  Thurli says that, because grain imports are very limited, few people can afford to bake with flour.  Bosconia is, however, rich in softwood forests, and the fine wood dust produced in government factories by large colonies of captive termites provides an adequate substitute.  


In order to bolster the employment rate, the bread factories hire thousands of workers, equipped with long straws, to blow carbon dioxide bubbles into the large vats of wood dust dough.  Thus--of course--yeast is contraband in Bosconia, as the use of yeast would double the unemployment rate every eight hours (depending on the temperature).


Given the central role of bread in URP, and the even more central role of government control, the Bosconian Bread Authority employs approximately 20% of the adult population of the country.  URP bread baking rules, according to the Bakers' Union's National Dough Treatise, specify the species and ages of trees that can be used in the wood dust, the authorized water sources, the hydration percentage, exact methods of dough mixing, time and temperature specifications, volume of carbon dioxide bubbles to be hand-blown into the dough, and--last but not least--the shape of the loaf (a kind of giant raised bagel shape).  Each of the thousands of loaves produced in the bread factories each day is thoroughly inspected, and many are tasted, by the BBA's staff before they may be shipped in their characteristic red plastic wrapping to markets throughout the nation.


Though this may paint a bleak picture of the bread-baking life in Bosconia, Thurli assures me that the Bosconian people are very happy with their bread.  It makes the perfect accompaniment to the national dish, a stew of rodent meat, ferns and wild onions, commonly known as Compustabol.


Thurli asked me to express to you all his deepest wish that some day citizens of URP may join the TFL community so that you may learn more about Bosconian customs and culinary arts.


Glenn 

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

In a follow up letter, Thurli mentioned several other things that you will find interesting.  The Bosconian government is not the sole enforcement mechanism for bread standards.  The Bakers' Union also has a role.  Especially in assuring that each loaf produced in the nation conforms precisely to the specifications regarding loaf shape.  If a baker allows a loaf to leave the factory in a shape other than that prescribed by the Bakers' Union's National Dough Treatise, the Baker will face the wrath of the Baker's Anti-Deformation League's Committee Against Creative License. BADL-CACL has the power to reassign an offending baker to the bubble-blowing ranks.  So loaf uniformity is not much of a problem.


He also mentioned that the whole idea of naming breads is foreign, and probably felonious, in Bosconia.  In fact, one of the many Bosconian national mottos is "Bread is Bread".  As a side note, my favorite Bosconian national motto--the one emblazoned on their flag--is "Iz Dependink".  This saying is used in answer to virtually any question you ask a Bosconian.


Thanks, Thurli.  Enjoy your bread.


Glenn

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Glenn,


After reading all that Thorli shared with you, I took the liberty of verifying his facts with his nephew and namesake, Thorli Pizt, who, as you are aware, escaped from Bosconia some years ago and settled in Tarzana. 


Thorli (from Tarzana) confirmed all that Thorli (from Bosconia) claimed. "Dude! Positively!" were his exact words. He then expressed concern for his uncle's safety if your message on this public forum should come to the attention of the Bosconian authorities. His fear is that Thorli (from Bosconia) be declared a traitor to URP (TURP) and be subjected to the medical procedure with the same acronym (Trans-Urethral Resection of the the Prostate) - the usual punishment, based on the principal that the punishment fit the crime. While we regard this as a generally safe procedure, in the hands of the inept Bosconian practitioners, TURP universally results in urinary incontinence.


This is, by the way, the supposed origin of their national motto, "Iz Dependsnik," which, I assume, you inadvertently misspelled in transliteration from Bosconian Cyrillic script.


David

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

Interesting, David.  I don't know much about medical stuff, let alone Bosconian medical practices.  I do remember reading in an Earth Science class about incontinental drips and plate techtronics.  


I'm sure that the prospect of having to wear Bosconian adult diapers (woven from fern fronds, I would guess) would yield a very compliant citizenry.  


Thorli-the-Elder has mentioned that the dietary fiber in Bosconian bread results in a very low incidence of colon cancer.  He didn't appreciate my suggesting that that might be related to the fact that the average Bosconian life expectancy is not much longer than that of a carcinoma. 


I find myself wishing with some urgency that my unnamed sourdough bread (now resting and expanding, having been stretched and folded several dozen times) does not in shape, texture, taste nor in any other way resemble the bread of which Thorli has taught us (no offense, my Bosconian comrade).


Glenn


 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

 


Glenn,


It's not at all surprising that you know so little about Bosconian medical practices, as no sector of Bosconian society is more subject to secrecy, and no Bosconian citizens are more oppressed than medical practitioners.


I also was ignorant of the appalling state of Bosconian medicine until Dr. Pizt enlightened me. Thorli holds a certificate from the Bosconian Institute of Medicine in  bleeding, acupuncture and mycology.  So, with the benefit of insights gleaned from Thorli Pizt, BIM-BAM, I am able to enlighten you in turn.


Prior to the so-called "Glorious Uprising of the Poor People's Yes-men," from which GUPPY, the party that has remained in power ever since, took its name, Bosconian medicine was based on the writings of Hippocrates, whom the Bosconians claim as a native son who only late in life emigrated to Greece. They say this was totally inadvertent. He was looking for the medical staff men's room and became lost in the halls of the Bosconia University Surgical Hospital (BUSH).


Bosconian doctors did not participate in the great scientific advances of the 16th through 19th centuries, but their ethical principles were exemplary, and they were highly respected by the entire populace.


With the rise to power of GUPPY, the Bosconian Association of Doctors (BAD) was dissolved. GUPPY delegated control of medical practice to the Sausage Maker's Guild, since they knew more about anatomy and nutrition, as well as politics, than Bosconian doctors. Thus, regulation of medical practice went from BAD to wurst.


You probably assume that, since Bosconia purports to be a socialist state, doctors would be employed and paid by the Central Government. However, GUPPY leadership determined early on that an even more repressive, authoritarian and intrusive entity was required. Therefore, GUPPY engaged in an international search for an organization with an established record of all these attributes with the intention of outsourcing destruction of the previously sacrosanct doctor-patient relationship, which they believed to be a threat to their total control of their society and every aspect of their citizens' lives.  This is the origin of Blue Hammer and Sickle of Bosconia, which is the only organization whose headquarters building is more spacious and luxurious than GUPPY headquarters itself and whose claims reviewers are the only Bosconians more feared than the Bosconian Intelligence Police, which are called by the citizenry "Guppy's Bippy," but not too loudly.


 


So, that's the sad story, according to Thorli Pizt, the Bosconian exile doctor.


David


 


 

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

David, this recounting of the backward state of the Bosconian medical industry helps me understand some things that Thurli Tichtov said in his letter.  His English is not the best, so I hadn't understood his story about the baker who had a severe pain in his gut. Thurli said the baker went to a well-known doctor, Sasha Punim, for diagnosis and treatment.  Apparently, this led to the "discovery" of an anatomical feature never before known to Bosconian medical science.  

The following year, at the decennial meeting of the Bosconian Union of Research Physicians (BURP), Dr. Punim gave a talk detailing the successful removal and replacement of the inflamed organ.  The doctor's talk was later published in the Official Proceedings of BURP under the title "The Bread Baker's Appendix".

Glenn


dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

That medical research is allowed at all in Bosconia.


In American medical schools, the emphasis on research over patient care or teaching is sometimes excessive. An American medical faculty member, regarding the scientific presentation you described, would probably say, "A BURP on the stand is worth two in the BUSH."


David

pmccool's picture
pmccool

that focus on Bosconia.  Who would willingly go there?


For my edification: are Thurly and Thorly both accepted spelling variants for the same name?  Or is it one of those things where one writing system just cannot be rendered in another (such as Arabic to English)?


Whew!  Powdered wood for bread!  Last I read of that was in the context of Finns who were facing starvation when the granary ran out before winter did and made "bread" from sawdust (true).


Paul

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde


Who would willingly go there?



Iz Dependink.  It might be that URP has few attractions to Western travelers.  It might be that many go to Bosconia, but few return, either because they are incarcerated and relegated to the bubble-blower ranks, or because they find the charms of the Bosconian libido too magnetic to pull away from.  Or it might be that many travelogues are written but few get past the BIP's censors; note that, if you Google "Bosconia", you find little information about URP; instead you find references to a region in Columbia (attributable to the theft of the name by exiles from URP in the late 1940s, a matter pending for many decades before the World Court).



[A]re Thurly and Thorly both accepted spelling variants for the same name? 



Iz Dependink.  Misspelling the name "Thurli" is an old Bosconian custom, even though it is a crime under the Code of Nomenclature of the Federal Acts of Bosconia (CONFAB).  Bosconian Patriot Thurli D. Schoztut, was a modest lumberjack from a small village in the Forest of Glunscht who became a national hero in the Bosco-Maltese Wars of the 18th Century.  He is credited with assuring victory by sending thousands of termites to Malta, which destroyed all the forests in that country, thus paralyzing the Maltese military-industrial complex which depended on wood for sword-manufacturing.  After his war years, Schoztut reportedly invented the process of using captive termites to mill trees into dust for breadmaking, thus securing his place among the ranks of Bosconia's greatest inventors.


Needless to say, this hero's name is among the most common in Bosconia, and under CONFAB, misspelling the name is punishable by exile, and is thus a popular passtime, one of the few examples of Bosconian civil disobedience.


So, it could be that the seemingly random spelling of Thurli or Thorli or Thurly or Thorly is in fact an act of cross-cultural solidarity with our Bosconian brethren. 


Or it could be a typo.


Thanks for asking.


Glenn

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Paul.


You are not likely to find travelogues from Bosconia. It is a closed society, and visitors are forbidden entry. Glenn may have more current information from his pen pal who still resides in the fatherland, but, according to Thorli Pizt, the entire nation is surrounded by a high wall constructed entirely of first loaves of bread made by apprentice bakers. 


You can, spell "Thorli" however you wish, as a citizen of a free country. If you were Bosconian, your English spelling of Bosconian vocabulary would be restricted by the regulations in the  Bosconian-English Laws Of Writing promulgated by the Directorate of Words, Non-Bosconian (DOWN-BELOW). 


Violations of these regulations are punished according to the previously referenced principle of "The Punishment Fits the Crime." You would be forced to eat your words, usually as a sandwich made with Bosconian bread.


David

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

David points up an important distinction between Bosconian rights and those of what we call the civilized world.  We are blessed to have expressive liberty.  The closest thing to that in Bosconia is the right of blood-sucking insects to infest Germanic canines, also referred to as the Right to Fleadom of Spitz.


[As a side note, I'm concerned that this discussion might start to trend toward silliness.  That's perfectly normal, of course.]


Glenn

GSnyde's picture
GSnyde

At the risk of interrupting our mind-opening and -bending conversation about comparative politics, medical anthropology and industrial entomology, I would like briefly to return to the original topic of this thread: the naming of bread.


I have to decided to call the bread...[drum roll]... San Joaquin Sourdough. 


Not because I want to be able to hold David responsible if it comes out like a Bosconian Woodloaf (a poor baker blames his mentor).  But because that's what it is.  I am following David's formula almost to a tee, and as I've gone through this lengthy dough-making process he has provided me invaluable guidance ("don't screw it up").


The dough has now been stretched and folded so many times that it's trained to jump out of the bowl and start stretching itself before I can grab my scraper. It has bubblingly raised itself up to almost twice its size, despite having been retarded for 19 hours.  And now it is pre-shaped into logs, barely able to contain itself at the prospect of realizing its manifest destiny...to be two crusty batards.  Just like the Snyder boys.


Glenn


 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Yes, two crusty batards. 

belfiore's picture
belfiore

are thoroughly entertaining...whatever are you smoking in that pipe??? LOL


Toni