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Submitted by cognitivefun on November 8, 2006 - 9:50am New York Times article on slow rise bread baked in a pot!The New York Times had a great article by Mark Bittman on making bread
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/08mini.html Ideas:
1. Use a very hydrated dough
2. Use only a small amount of yeast, 1/4 teaspoon
3. No kneading
4. Rise at cool room temperature for 18 hours and fold a few times at the end
5. Proof for a few hours
6. Dump into a preheated Dutch oven (a wrought iron or similar cast iron pot with a cover) at 450F, cover, and bake for 30 minutes, then uncover and let finish. You just dump the dough into the hot pot!
New ideas for me: the preheated covered pot! I shall have to try this.
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Great video
A friend sent this to me as well. Fantastic! The author says he's tried it with whole wheat, so I think I'll give that a try with a hydration of 80-82%. See what happens. The video is well worth watching.
Thanks for posting that!
Thanks for posting that!
How cool is that?
This looks like the perfect solution to my chronic problems with shaping the super-hydrated doughs that give you the gorgeous crumb-and-crust. Can't wait to try it! (Of course, this is going to have me out scouring the discount bins for other shapes and sizes of covered pots....)
"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."
Way Cool!
I've already printed off the recipe to give it a try this weekend. I can't wait and experiment with sourdough!!! Thanks for sharing!!
A friend sent me the same
A friend sent me the same link first thing this morning. I got an enamel stock pot with lid this morning, and my 4 year old "helped" me mix the dough around noon. I'll shape the loaf around 10am tomorrow and bake it around noon.
sourdough version
This looks a wonderful idea. Anyone tried it with sourdough??
And has anyone a version with weighed ingredients? I've never cooked with cups etc and am really unsure about using anything other than either pounds, ounces etc or preferably metric!
Thanks
Andrew
I'm trying it with sourdough
I'm trying it with sourdough right now...
I watched the video. I do
I watched the video. I do notice his dough is less hydrated than mine. Mine is more batter-like. I will have to experiment with a less hydrated dough. For sourdough, though, I tend to believe (may not be true) that a more hydrated dough (80%?) works better for the yeasties and beasties to do their work.
I think that sourdough cultures multiply in the dough and the higher hydration makes this work better. Instant yeast gets distributed through the dry ingredient mixing part and doesn't reproduce in the dough so it doesn't need as much hydration.
What do you think?
less hydrated dough
I've made sourdoughs with a variety of hydtations - lower (60% - 65% ) don't get an open crumb, but I find it rises well (takes longer) gets an excellent sour flavour due to the longer rising time and is easier to slash. But the last 6 months or more I've been using a higher proportion of water and find I like the more open crumb that results.
What percent hydration is the recipe given in the NY Times? I have no concept of the quantities when given in cups etc. Should I be aiming for around 75%?
Shall try this next week when I return from Scotland.
Andrew
Hydration on the NYT formula
I ran a quick conversion based on what I saw in the article and recipe, and it looks like the dough is about 72% hydration, which is just right for a rustic dough.
ahydration
And how EXACTLTY does one differerentiate between 75% and 80% hydration?
Cognitivefun: I'm not using
Cognitivefun:
I'm not using sourdough, but my dough is like yours -- like a batter, not like in the video. It will be ready to bake tomorrow afternoon.
Please post your results and I will do the same.
Dough vs. Batter
Did you notice how he dipped his flour out and rough shook it? He could be using 20% more flour than someone who uses a scale.
Dough vs. Batter
This is another facet to the beauty of this recipe! It is a very forgiving process with consistant results.
quote from the NY Times article - 'The entire process is incredibly simple, and, in the three weeks I’ve been using it, absolutely reliable. Though professional bakers work with consistent flour, water, yeast and temperatures, and measure by weight, we amateurs have mostly inconsistent ingredients and measure by volume, which can make things unpredictable. Mr. Lahey thinks imprecision isn’t much of a handicap and, indeed, his method seems to iron out the wrinkles: “I encourage a somewhat careless approach,” he says, “and figure this may even be a disappointment to those who expect something more difficult. The proof is in the loaf.” ' - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/08mini.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Bob - Rehoboth, MA
What temp?
I noticed the video says to use a 500 or even 515 degree oven, but the printed recipe says 450 degrees. So if you try it, let us know which temp you used. This looks like so much fun, but kind of dangerous!
also no mention of shaping a
also no mention of shaping a loaf except the quick folding described which isn't really shaping.
Re: Times article on slow rise bread baked in a pot
Seems to me that is essentially Floydm's Daily Bread recipe (or similar plain rustic doughs) cooked in a cast-iron cloche.
sPh
I made the bread!
I used regular bread flour, with cormeal to prevent sticking to the towel during bench proofing. The loaf turned out wonderful. I baked it at 450, pretty much followed the print recipe. I used a pound of flour rather than 3 cups, which was pretty much the same volume when I measured.
I'm bad at following
I'm bad at following directions.
I created probably 80% hydration sourdough dough with about 6 cups flour, 2tspns salt, and refrigerated overnight, and then let rise about 8 hours. Then I proofed for about 2, preheated the oven with a Dutch oven in it to 450F. It was too hydrated to get much surface tension into it although I tried.
I was a little apprehensive about getting the dough into the pot. But that was pretty easy. I covered and baked for 30 minutes then uncovered and baked for another 10 until the internal temperature was 205F.
My loaf had no oven spring and I think I should have baked it longer, perhaps at a lower temperature, maybe 425F.
It has a marvelous reddish crunchy crust that my bread hasn't had before and it tasted very good although I shouldn't have sneaked a slice as it wasn't yet cool.
I will definintely try this again and refine it for my style which is 1) sourdough, and 2) refrigerated immediately upon mixing, for 1 or 2 days.
excellent results here
I made the bread according to the Times recipe (using King Arthur Bread Flour) except I:
-- used plain old active dry yeast instead of instant
-- used a 4.5 quart cast iron pot (not 6 to 8 qt), preheated to 500F, not 450
-- had a first rise of about 24 hrs, hours 12-15 in the refrigerator, because I knew I wouldn't be home before the bread had risen at least 20 hours. Second rise took about 1.5 hrs.
The results were excellent. Far and away the best crackly crust of any bread I've made, and I've tried many methods (spraying, ice cubes on oven floor, etc.). Nice open crumb, and well developed flavor.
Bittman's right--it's time consuming, but very easy, and the results rival bread from a good bakery. I'm looking forward to playing around with the method with other formulations.
Disaster here! I guess I get
Disaster here!
I guess I get the booby prize for not being able to get this thing to work!
I followed the recipe to the letter (used French T-55 flour), let it sit at 70 degrees for 18 hrs etc, but my dough stayed the consistency of batter. I tried to fold it, but it just was too liquidy. I let it stand for another 2 hrs and decided to go ahead and bake it, just for the heck of it.
I poured the dough into a La Creuset pot and baked it per the recipe.
Result: a flattish, funny shaped brown loaf with a crispy, crunchy crust and a nice open crumb. Tastes fine, but it looks nothing like the video or the pictures that have been posted.
Where did I go wrong? Is French flour that much different from US flour? For you folks who are used to working with wet doughs, how do you get the dough to the point where it can be folded?
I never had problems with my bread when I was baking in the States or in the UK. But I've had nothing but trouble here on the continent!
I feel like an idiot -- any suggestions welcomed.
Disaster
From my experience with these kinds of doughs, if you don't (or can't) fold it, it won't rise much. Folding creates a tight surface around the wet dough. The tight surface traps much of the CO2 produced by the dough during poofing and baking. Without the tight surface, the CO2 will escape.
The solution is to add enough flour so that you can fold it. Or perhaps you are not comfortable folding a wet dough-- I certainly wasn't the first few times I tried it! There are a number of techniques to fold a wet dough. What I do is spray my counter with non-stick spray (I like Mazola the best because it sprays evenly). Then I pour the dough onto the coated surface. Then I spray the palms of both of my hand with spray oil. Finally, I fold the dough like a letter I'm getting ready to put in an envelope.I turn the dough 90 degrees and fold again like a letter. Then I flip the dough over so the seam side is down, cover the dough with plastic wrap covered with spray oil and let the dough sit for at least an hour.
Let me know how things turn out!
If you can't fold it
Like your observation - I too have noticed the same thing but never let it sink in.
If you can't fold it.
It sunk. I'm the cook and this is someone else's recipe, in someone else's kitchen and at someone else's altitude. I will make it my own way and on my terms. Forget what they say - I know what dough ought to look like and feel like.
Crud, I feel better all ready.
Half disaster!
I had more or less the same problem. The dough was very liquid. I baked it in a Römertopf (I have no Le Creuset), which I soaked in water. This was probably a mistake. The bottom of the bread was crispy but very clear. Disapointing!
Pics you can find here: http://kochtopf.twoday.net/stories/2928503/
1 x umrühren bitte - http://kochtopf.twoday.net
Scoop vs. spoon
I noticed in the video that he scooped his flour from a bowl. This would probably compact the flour and lead to a lower overall hydration than what you'd get if your flour was spooned or measured by weight. I suspect this is why some people following the recipe are getting over-hydrated doughs, while the dough in his video is perfect.
dough consistency
Have not tried the technique yet, but I would think that starting with a little wetter dough and incorporating just enough additional flour to reach the described and visible "sticky bisquit dough consistency" would be the way to go. It's a pretty easily identifiable "goop".
PM
NY Times recipe
I made it twice. the first time I followed the recipe and from experience I thought it was over hydrated--however I continued. Too wet to fold. I let it proof wet and ploped it into the covered cast iron pot. It was a tad ''flat'' but the crust and crumb were to die for.
the second time I adjusted the water to sight----just enough hydration so I could easily fold, proof, and plop I into the pot without it going flat. the finished product was almost like a small soccer ball. Firm, super crusty, and the crumb was excellent.
I suspect a heavy pot with a tight lid creates enough steam using ''any'' reasonable hydration for a ''no fail loaf of world class bread''. Kudos to the inventor of this technique.
as a test, the third time around I made a small batch of under-hydrated rolls weighing 1 1/2 oz each. I proofed them @ room temp on a wood peel, and plopped them in a covered pot. About 15 minutes later they were done. the crust chewy and the crumb was good. No evidence of under-hydration!
At this point in time using this method of baking many of us on ''the fresh loaf'' site will evolve many many different varieties of ''world class breads''. How does it go ''sticks and stones'' will break your bones but the covered iron pot will never hurt you.
I wouldn't call mine a disaster
I wouldn't call mine a disaster but it looked a lot like yours sounded: a 'loaf' about 3 centimetres tall.
I left the first 'rising' for 20 hours, at which point it did indeed have bubbles on top, though not a whole lot. I followed instructions with the wheat bran and tea towel and waited for it to double in size. And waited. And waited. After four hours it had perhaps increased in size slightly, but not very noticeably.
I decided to go ahead and bake it anyway. I haven't a le Creuset so I used my stainless steel dutch oven, about 25 centimetres across. I baked it at the given 450F. for 30 minutes, covered, then uncovered it and gave it another 10, at which point it was nicely browned and sounded hollow when I removed it from the pot but, as I said, it was barely 3 centimetres 'high'. Tastes good but I'd like it to be at least two or three times as tall.
Any suggestions?
Avril in Ontario
The new bread revolution-- sourdough version
Thanks for the great post. I watched the video at least three times, immediately ordered a cast iron pot and took the following leap of faith---
I had been making Pain Levain from BA (using 50% whole wheat 50% KA white bread flour, and orange juice to get the wild yeast going). On day 3, I read your post and fell out of my chair. "If Bittman is right, any dough that sits for 12 hours at 70-75% hydration may not require kneading" At the end of day three, I mixed in flour to bring the hydration down to 75%. Then I folded the dough, placed it seam side down in a bowl covered with a flour-dusted towel and let the dough sit overnight (12 h). The next morning I flipped it onto a peel, slashed it, baked it at 500 deg for 28 minutes. Note that I no time did I knead the dough.
It was ugly (possibly slightly overhydrated), but it rose well and had the best crust and crumb I have ever made with my own hands. The taste was the perfect mild-sour that I have only been able to produce one other time. The crumb was wide open and chewy. HERE'S the best part-- my one year old twin daughters loved it (they only eat the crumb as they only have 6 teeth)!
SO-- (European) sourdough, no added yeast, no kneading, great bread, AMAZING!
Cool!
I had to try this recipe! You can see the result in my blog http://peho.typepad.com/chili_und_ciabatta/2006/11/brot_fr_knetfau.html
My dough was also batter-like (in Germany we have bread flour with less gluten), but I tried to follow the recipe. Next time (surely there will be a next time!) I will take a little bit more flour (it should be easier to handle then) and try it with sourdough. I preheated the oven to 515°F (270°C) and reduced to 450°F (230°C) when I put the pot back. Baking time 50 minutes.
Petras Brotkasten: http://www.petras-brotkasten.de/
Chili und Ciabatta - My kitchen blog: http://http://www.peho.typepad.com/chili_und_ciabatta/
Cascabel: Your loaf and
Cascabel:
Your loaf and dough look great. I'm in Luxembourg, so I also use German 550 flour (French T-55 is the same, as I understand it).
I can see that you were able to fold your dough, despite the hydration. There was no way for me to do that and I'm not confident enough or experienced enough with slack doughs to have known how much extra to add once it was ready to be folded (I figured it was too late at that stage).
Anyway, I will also try again soon, but I will add the water more slowly (not all at once like I did yesterday) and see if I can get the dough the consistency of the dough in the video.
Thanks for posting your results.
Great photos, Cascabel.
Great photos, Cascabel.
I'm going to have to try this over the weekend.
Thank you for posting the
Thank you for posting the photos, I am buying a pot this weekend...
Half recipe NYT no-knead bread
I baked a half-recipe in a 2.5 liter Corningware dish with a thick metal lid from another pan. I used 6.5 oz water and 9 oz flour. That works out to the 42% water mentioned in the article. It made a loaf 7" diameter, and 3.75" high. The flavor is good enough, but the crust is spectacular. As soon as I removed it from the oven, I could hear "musique du pain" loud and clear! The holes weren't quite as large as I'd like, so next time I'll try 16 oz. flour as verminiusrex did. The only other change would be to preheat at 450 degrees. I preheated at 500 and baked at 450, and the bottom got too brown.
I tried this approach today
I tried this approach today too, with mixed results.
I took a ton of pictures, so rather than clutter up this thread I posted them in my baker blog.
NYTimes no knead bread
Your bread history and experience inspires me! You accompanying photographs also paint a beatufiul story and augment the inspiration. One question about the Lahey input: why does his recipe suggest inverting the raised dough so that the "pinched" rough side is to the top? The second is how did you get such a beautiful looking loaf that you could slash on the top? Third, what recipe did you use? Thanks so much.
Pot Bread mixed results
Having read whole of thread and also thread on NY Times site (something to do whilst you wait) and having watched video several times I have finished my first attempt.
I decided to go with the printed recipe - as others on the NY Times blog note there are discrepencies between the video and the printed recipe, most noticably the bench proofing stage which isn't really hinted at on the video, hmmm....
Anyway, results after 23 hour delay, 1 hour bench proof out of 450c oven ten minutes ago.
The good ...
The bad ...
The ugly ...
Considerations
Overall I have gone from VERY excited to QUITE excited and worth further investigation. Would like to see effect on wholemeal.
Second experiment soon :)
Thanks for mentioning the
Thanks for mentioning the thread on the NYT site; I hadn't noticed it before. I was relieved to find out that I am not the only one who didn't have a success with this bread.
Now I don't feel so bad about my bread not coming out; I was starting to get a complex about it!!
finally something great
I am an amateur baker, after many disappointing tries at making thre old-fashioned NY bagel of my youth, I decided to make this no knead bread for company last night.... it was a resounding success- I still can't believe I made bread that was so delicious and so professional looking as well.
Before my company left, they wanted me to start a new bread - took all of five minutes, now just have to wait the 20 hours to try again!
Thank you for a wonderful and helpful site.
I tried this yesterday and
I tried this yesterday and am thrilled with the results. I'm a true amateur and this appears to be the loaf I've been searching for. Been sopping up olive oil today so I don't waste any!
NYT recipe - whole wheat
Well, i tried it with whole wheat. I had to up the hydration significantly to get the consistency in the video. It was at about 93% hydration. I grind my own whole wheat flour, so it's pretty thirsty stuff. For regular pan loaves, I start at 75% hydration, and often go as high as 80%.
Anyway, here's what I ended up with:
It got very little oven spring, and spread out quite a bit in the cloche. I don't have a covered cassarole, and when I went looking for one, I found they're a lot more expensive than a cloche! And since I already have a cloche, I figured I'd use it.
The holes were nice, but the flavor was very "whole wheaty." I think I prefer whole wheat breads when they're cut with a little bit of butter or oil in the dough. There's a dry, sharp taset which I assume is the bran in the crust that I just don't find appealing. However, the crust was definitely the crispiest I've eaten with 100% whole wheat, and the crumb was nice and chewy.
Probably not something I'll do again, though. Not with whole wheat, anyways.
Whole wheat results
This is pretty close to what my first attempt w/whole what was like. I cut it into 1/16-1/8" slices and lightly toasted/dried it to make some really nice whole what crackers!
- Andy
NYT wholewheat
Hmmm very interesting JMonkey - I was wondering about an oil component, for flavour and keeping quality too. I will experiment further.
PS My first loaf cam out looking very like yours except with a little more "volcano" appearance and I too suffered spreading problem.
My favourite wholewheat at the moment is probably 80-100% wholewheat in Floydm's honey wholewheat recipe.
My beautiful NYT bread
I'm from Venezuela - South America- and discover this site about a week ago and, since then, I visit it every day. I'm in love with bread, its smell, taste, crust, and how wonderful it is be able to bake it at home. I've taken two levels - of 4 - in a baking school here in my country, and studying about bread.
I'm adding my No Knead Bread..
Here:
http://momsrecipesandmore.blogspot.com/2006/11/no-knead-bread-no-knead-bread-takes.html
I'm loving this technique
I've tried it on three batches so far and the only real disaster was one loaf that came out burnt on the outside -- the result of mindlessly following directions without the old eyeball tests (I way set the timer and walked away for the final lid-off bake).
It's true this dough is mighty slack after 12 hours of fermenting. It's not really possible to shape it in the traditional way. Basically I floured my hands and pulled it into a rough circle. Final raise does in fact tend to go sideways instead of up. But that didn't affect the quality of the final loaf except in leading to some strange wrinkles in the surface.
Apparently, it's really the pan that dictates the loaf shape. I used a big oval dutch oven and a smaller round covered Pyrex baking dish and ended up with two quite different loaves -- both delicious! I may be that the lack of oven spring some folks are seeing would be remedied by using a slightly smaller pan.
I just ordered a long covered cast-iron casserole dish -- http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=254669 -- that I believe will allow me to use this formula to turn out long loaves. I'll post pix if it works!
"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."
Looking at the cast iron
Looking at the cast iron casserole that you ordered, I'm thinking thats going to be some big bread. If I read it correctly it is 9" wide and 21" long. I would love to find a cast iron pan in the shape of a baguette---say 20" x 3" x 4". Imagine the baguettes to be made with this no knead method.
Re: Looking at the cast iron
> I would love to find a cast iron pan in the shape
> of a baguette---say 20" x 3" x 4".
Send these guys an e-mail and suggest it; can't hurt:
http://www.lodgemfg.com/support.asp
sPh
Baguette shaped lodge pan w/lid
I sent the email...lets see what happens.
Baguette baker
It's not quite a baguette baker, but I imagine a demi-baguette would fit nicely.
Here's a link to the full description at the King Arthur Flour site.
Re: Baguette baker
I actually have one of those, and it works OK. But the results with my very heavy cast-iron camping Dutch oven have got me thinking that masss has a lot to do with it, and the cast iron might work better than the cloiche (which I had been thinking about buying).
That is why I suggested to the OP that he submit his suggestion to the cast iron company.
sPh
You are correct, sir. That's
You are correct, sir. That's the big giant pan. I meant to link to a smaller version -- which would, I think, produce something more along the lines of a large Italian loaf. But never mind; they were out.
But the idea of a cast-iron baguette pan? Brilliant!
Next logical progression
WOW! I've been messing with preferments for a few months now.
I figured that if a little pre-ferment was good then more would be better. And it's true - I do like it better. In a six cup recipe I've been pre-fermenting 3 cups flour/2 water/1 teaspoon yeast. But the final dough isn't anywhere near the hydration levels indicated in the article. And I still knead it for about 8 minutes.
It never occured to me to just do the entire batch as a pre-ferment and that the same principles behind the autolyse method would kick in. It just felt wrong somehow. Shows what I know.
I'll be trying this today for sure.
"Nature always sides with the hidden flaw"
Yeast percentage
So what percentage of yeast would this be? I'd like to try this on a larger scale, maybe 10-15 loaves. I wouldn't bake it in the pan as he does, but I like the idea of mixing the dough one day, and then just folding/shaping/proofing the next. Could you do this same sort of this as a cold ferment for even longer, say 2-3 days? I'm trying to figure this out as I had a disaster one time experimenting with this. I won't go into detail...ahem. It's hard for me to scale it when most recipes I use are using close to 20 lbs of flour, so a percentage of instant yeast would be most helpful. Thanks.
Ed
Try one loaf first
Ed, have you tried the recipe? Maybe you should try one loaf first, just to get an idea of how the dough feels, and to fine tune the amount of flour for the brand you're using. FWIW, Peter Reinhart converts 1 tablespoon instant yeast to .33 oz in his Panettone recipe in BBA. -Mary
Part of the key the pot used?
I start to suspect that part of the key to the puzzle is the type of pot used, and that my relative success was due to the coincidence of using the cast iron camping dutch oven which is _very_ heavy and has a reasonably tight-fitting lid. I think the heat capacity of the cooking vessel is coming into play quite strongly here.
I again raise the question about the le Cruset dutch oven shown in the NYT picture. It appears to be one with a resin handle, which per the instruction is limited to 200 deg.C/390 deg.F. This recipe needs 450-550 deg.F temperatures to work as far as I can tell.
sPh
Le creuset at 450?
Personally I think it's the shape and size of the pot, at least as much as the material. My theory is this: if the pot's too big, dough spreads out flat, loaf comes out flat.
FWIW, Amazon.com's product description says the "phenolic" handles are good up to 450 degrees. Le Creuset's website says good up to 400. My only Le Creuset pot is a 3 (or so) quart round-bottomed soup thing, which I think is too small, but I might try a smaller loaf since I doubt the extra 50 degrees is going to make the handles melt.
A new try with sourdough
Yesterday I made the NYT no-knead bread with 400 g dark wheat flour (Type 1200 here in Germany), 300 g water, 1 1/2 ts salt and 50 g barm starter (100% hydration). First rise 14 hours. This time the dough was very easy to handle. I like the result quite a lot :-)
Some photos: http://peho.typepad.com/chili_und_ciabatta/2006/11/noknead_bread_d.html
Next time I will try with some rye flour and a little bit more water than today.
--
Petras Brotkasten: http://www.petras-brotkasten.de/
Chili und Ciabatta - My kitchen blog: http://www.peho.typepad.com/chili_und_ciabatta/
has anyone had good oven
has anyone had good oven spring with this method? At what hydration level?
Re: has anyone had good oven spring
Yes, my results were similar to verminiusrex's above. I followed the printed recipe (not the video), but I did use my banneton for the final rise.
sPh
in progress
I'm waiting for fermentation to to its magic, but my first attempt is a very wet 90 or so. I started with the NYTimes recipe, converted 3 c to 1 lb and the 1 5/8 c water weighed in at 14.5 oz.
new to baking, works for me
this is the second loaf of yeast bread i've ever made. came out great, as far as i'm concerned. the texture was great and the crust, though i could have let it browned more, was nice and crispy. i'm no expert, but if i can bake a loaf of bread like this with next to no effort, i think it's a keeper!
details:
3 c bread flour
1 3/4 c water (it's dry in southern california)
18 hour first rise
folded in thirds, rotate 90 deg, folded in thirds
2 hour proof
all-clad stainless dutch oven, 30 min at 450 with lid on, 20 at 450 with lid off
Stainless baking vessels okay for this technique?
Has anybody tried this method out with a heavy-bottomed stainless pot -- like a smallish stock pot? My sis offered me her Emeril stainless pot for this experiment, but I was reluctant to use it for fear that the high temps (450-520 degrees) would permanently discolor the pot. Anybody have any experience to share? Thanx!
"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."
i used an all-clad stainless
i used an all-clad stainless dutch oven. no harm no foul.
Ceramic insert from crock-pot
I didn't have a Le Creuset or cast iron, so I pulled the ceramic (oval) 5 quart liner from a crock pot and used that at 450 degrees.
The bread was perfect - I only did 10 min. uncovered, and there was no burning.
My brother used an Emile Henry pot, and dusted w/cornmeal, and said the crust was a little too hard, but he also did about 23 min. uncovered
Ralphy B.
Discoloring the pot
I find that oil smeared on the pot tends to discolor with high heat, but with a little elbow grease, it does come off. I couldn't be bothered. I like the effect and put my greasy finger marks all over my baking caserole dish. I have a "high five" on the lid from my little neighbor, she's 3. :) Mini Oven
Stainless steel, excellent results
I used stainless steel with excellent results. The pot I used was an Emerilware 3-quart casserole with a fairly heavy bottom but thin walls. (Pictured here at right http://www.emerilware.com/stainless_temp.asp) I was afraid to use the glass lid at such a high temperature, but fortunately I had an old enamaled lid that fit.
The Emerilware website says the pans are oven safe, but I was cautious and only preheated the pan to 400 before tossing the dough in and turning the oven up to just shy of 450. The pot looks fine and I'll probably try 475 next time to get an even better crumb. I didn't bother preheating the lid because it is so thin, and I figured that was one less chance to burn myself.
I cannot overemphasize how AMAZING the results are for such little effort. I have been making bread for 12 years, I love to experiment, I rarely use recipes and always throw in different flours and ingredients. Up to this point I never saw what the fuss about the crust was about, but I may be a newly converted crust snob. This crust is thin and flaky, and the loaf is moist with great flavor from the long fermentation. WOW! And the lack of kneading means I will probably be making bread a lot more often. That is really what is most revolutionary about this method.
I used 50% whole wheat, 50% all-purpose, with some flax seeds thrown in. I see no reason why not to experiment with various flours, etc. The wheat bran is a nice touch but a little messy. I agree with another poster that the towel may not be necessary. I let the final rise take place in the towel, in a casserole dish, which was nested in another bowl with warm water to speed things along since my house was a bit cold!
For those who are having problems, I would say: don't use too wide a pot, watch your bread so you don't burn it, and right before it goes in the oven your dough should somewhat resemble what it would look like if made by kneading (not too sticky.) Flour and humidity can vary a lot.
handle temps-simple solution and stainless stains
The instructions with my casseroles (stainless steel/glass-lidded and "phenolic" style handles) was simply to wrap the handles in baking foil if cooking over the recommended 200c or whatever.
Am very interested in pot debate and am considering options that don't require purchase for experiments.
I used a stainless steel stockpot (thick base thin walls) for my first attempt - see comments above. It certainly didn't stain - in fact no residue at all, loaf fell out!
Next efffort: will try a heavy pyrex style inverted roaster with lid at 450c.
Should have posted this here I/O Floyds blog
I've made the bread twice, using roughly measured cups of flour (stick the cup in the flour bag, shake it level and throw it in the bowl) and the bread has worked beautifully both times. When first mixed, the dough is not slack at all, almost looks like one of those biscuit type doughs where one is admonished to not over mix. I would guess that those who are getting batter like results at first are adding too much water. After 18 hours it becomes quite slack but still holds together when I dump/scrape it out on the surface to to fold. Once folded and shaped I have found it useful to let let it rise on a plate/platter (on a well floured dish towel) that has raised edges that contains the edges of the dough a little, encouraging vertical rise. Obviosly one that mimics the shape of the baking vessel. Since I'm baking an oval loaf I'm using an oval serving platter for the final rise. It also facilitates the final plop into the superheated baking vessel as you can hold the edges of the dishtowel and the platter together and simply tip the dough in.
I'm using one of those oval covered clay roasters. I was a little worried that it might crack when 475 degree clay met 70 degree dough but no worries.
Total labor: 3 minutes, 10 minutes if you include clean up.
One of the joys of this bread is listening to the crust crackling about 5 minutes after it comes out of the oven as it cools and shrinks. You look at the bottom of the loaf and see a fine network cracks in the crust.
I have been very pleased with the results, it tastes, looks, feels like a good basic bread store french boule. You know, the kind that seduces you with it's delicate, brittle crust, its creamy just soft enough interior, a delicate salty sweet flavor with sublte hints of hidden complexity. A classic that doesn't embark on a hostile takeover over of your taste buds but cries out for good butter, some left over sauce on the plate for mopping and promises of great toast in the morning.
This is definitely a case of less is more. And a keeper!
Perfect description
Pedro Pan, that's a perfect description of the dough -- "looks like one of those biscuit type doughs where one is admonished to not over mix." I mixed mine like biscuits or scones, pouring the liquid into the middle of the dry ingredients and stirring with my hand until it formed a sticky ball in the center; there was still a little flour left in the bowl, so I added a few drops of water so the remaining flour would cling to the ball. Certainly no over-mixing since the whole stirring process took about 10 seconds. As for your description of the final bread, well, that's enough to cause heavy breathing!
Failed sourdough version
I was very excited about this but my loaf very moist and pretty dense. Not edible so had to be thrown away.
I'll give it another shot as everyone else seems to have got on OK with it.
It would make my life much easier if it did work!
I use home-milled flour - do you think this was the problem? It's wholewheat ground to the finest setting.
I see that several of you have posted details of your successes with sourdough so I will try that next (no yeast at the moment!)
I did a new one with
I did a new one with (liquid) sourdough and a mix of 2 wheat flours, whole-rye flour and 83% water (baker's percent) according to the formula of the "mixed-flour miche" by Jeffrey Hamelman. Great bread! You can find a photo in my blog at http://peho.typepad.com/chili_und_ciabatta/2006/11/noknead_bread_d_1.html
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Petras Brotkasten: http://www.petras-brotkasten.de/
Chili und Ciabatta - My kitchen blog: http://www.peho.typepad.com/chili_und_ciabatta/
Great bread!
I made the bread and it came out great in every regard. I look forward to experimenting with other types, whole wheat, sourdough, etc.
Second attempt
Yesterday I tried this recipe again using the printed recipe directions and instant yeast. My first try was using my sourdough starter and was pretty much an inedible failure.
I still think this recipe needs a little more salt, but I followed the written instructions to the letter. After a 12 hour rise in a cool room, I folded the dough on a cornmeal sprinkled pastry cloth. Then I attempted to gather it in a ball and plopped the dough in a cloth lined basket that had been heavily floured and sprinkled with more cornmeal, covered the basket with a cloth and let it rise another two hours.
Transferring the dough to the hot pot from the basket was so much easier. And the dough only stuck to the basket cloth in a couple of places and was easily pulled loose. The bread had little if any oven spring, but was a good loaf of bread - moist, chewy interior with a thick, crunchy bottom crust and an appearnce good enough to serve guests. I'm not sure if I care for the very thick bottom crust that results from this technique, but I want to try baking my regular sourdough recipe in the hot pot and see how I like that.
If this recipe gets a lot more people to try baking their own bread, then it is definitely a baking breakthrough and I celebrate that!
enamel pot, the NYT and mexico
I have tried this bread three times. I am using a 4qt enamel pot with lid. I have twice used wheat bran to dust and once used cornmeal. The cornmeal loaf had a golden crust and the bran had a darker one.
The dough is made up in the morning (10am) and baked the next day about the same time.
The dough is kept in the fridge during this time and pulled out and allowed to warm for 3 hours. The one time I kept the dough on the counter, it did not rise in the baking and looked like asourdough starter with a thin amount of hooch on the top. (I live in the tropics and the kitchen is about 85-90F )
I cut back the salt from the original recipe as the first loaf was too salty for me. I continue to use about 3/4 of a tsp.
The crust on this loaf is better than anything I have acheived using the traditional bread making procedure. The crumb was full of holes. I think this would be excellent toasted .
Of all the bread styles I bake, my husband says this is his favorite.
Today, I will make a batch up using whole wheat 1:1 ratio with AP.
Somewhere I read about a pot discolouring with the use of oil. I do not use oil in the preheated pot.
Rather than do the towel step. I found that putting the cornmeal into a standard 9" pieplate and then coating the top by hand works wonderfully. There is no messy towel to clean and I have greater control getting the dough into the preheated pot. (Though the first time Ramona did this she threw the dough against the side of the pot and it seeped down into a heap) Surprisingly, at the end, this did not matter.
I find that perhaps if I increased the recipe by a third, I would have the perfect amount for for the bottom of my 4 qt pan.
I enjoy making this bread, and will continue to do so in the future.
Immediately into fridge?
Hi, beanfromex, I'm glad you're having such success. I was already worrying about how the recipe will fare in the heat of next summer, and you answered the question! Do you put the dough into the fridge immediately after mixing, or do you give it an hour, or so, at room temp first to get it started?
4x is the charm
Made it 4x. First was like alot of ppl's, ate half threw away the rest, way too gummy, dough was a gloppy mess and i knew it when i made it. Flat as a pancake.
Second time was better, 3rd was better still. Fourth looked and tasted like a real loaf.
Each one I went wth less and less water.
My 4th batch was 450 grams pillsbury bread flour, 2 teaspoons of kosher salt, .5 teaspoon active yeast and 1 and 1/4 cup water.
Eye ball the dough before u rest it, it should be a sticky moist dough, not runny or batter like. By the time it rests, it will get more watery.
Problem is the 3 cups of flour in the original recipe, if u look at the video, its 3 heaping cups. 3 level cups + 1.5 cups of water will result in disaster.
Also try multiple batches at a time, waiting is the hardest part of this, so if u experiment with more than 1 batch, it can save you a day of waiting.
Hi merrybaker. I put it
Hi merrybaker.
I put it immediately into the fridge. Is there a bread theory that you should let it "start" at room temp?
Whatever works
Beanfromex, I've seen recipes showing both ways. But come to think of it, Peter Reinhart's Pain a l'Ancienne goes directly into the fridge and produces wonderful bread, similar in many ways to this one. So your method sounds like the right way to go with this recipe.
Another SD disaster...
Another gummy sourdough...*sigh*...well, I'm trying the yeast version now. I hope it works this time! Third time lucky maybe?!
New bread
had a new way of making bred no mix so mix alittle warm water little sugar Get the yeast going! starting to bubble & rise great! thats 1/2 teas yeast. dont worry it will feast on the flower explode within it put it all together everthing! go lite on water if its too much water ADD flower first time not too loose u are making a kinda tight biga or alittle loose dough thats what I did! When its mixed Please put it in a closet no fridge if u like mix your flour 1/2 & 1/2 It might raise better for the first experiment anyway Ifolded it after 18 hours in the closet! two hrs later I ploped it in the Hot pot from the bowl I mixed it in came out great! sliced it up 1 in thick & in the frezer HOW DID U Get IT TO SPLIT SO NICELY hotbred please just remember activate your yeast If u like throw a small handfull brown sugar in the water the yeast will go nuts and keep the temp 65 68 dont want the yeast to have it too easy has alot of work to do 24 hrs is almost a sour dough I dont type ,but love to bake & I enjoy this program & all u wonderful bakers once in a while I put my 2 cents in thank you all
My sourdough came out gummy
My sourdough came out gummy too. I'm trying a second time. My theory is that I need to uncover open the pot sooner which I hope will let the moisture evaporate quicker from the baking bread.
I plan to cover for 15 minutes and then uncover.
Also I made my dough less hydrated this time. Now it closely matches the hydration levels on the video.
I'll let you know!
New York Times article on slow rise bread baked in a pot!
I've been trying to make a loaf like this for over 15 years. When I think of the flat loaves, expensive equipment, books, internet sites and classes i've wasted trying, it makes me mad. This method is so basic and simple and yields bread so good it should be more widely known and practiced. Here's pictures of my first attempt:
Nate Moore
The articles on the NYT
The articles on the NYT website aren't available anymore and I stupidly didn't watch the video bit.
The problem wiht measuring in cups is that it's very inacccurate. And flour is so variable in thirstiness too. I think that's why I've been having problems
The articles on the NYT
The articles are available if you link from google. Try this...
http://www.google.com/search?q=times+no+knead+bread
Works for me.
Bob - Rehoboth, MA
The video is still up.
The video is still up. Just reviewed it again. Here is the link:
click to view
Thanks for the link!
I've booked marked this and will now try it since it does look simple. Just waiting for my cast iron pot from amazon!
Well, OK, Let's try this
Well, OK, Let's try this one. Either way it is still listed on their website and can be found:
click to view
First try
Well I baked my first try tonight and am very pleased with the results. Didn't have a proper pot but it still was fine. I used 3 cups of KA AP flour ( 136 gr per cup) and 1 1/2 cups of water. A little tough to work with since the dough is practically pourable after a 20 hr rise. Used a lined colander for final rise.
I think I would increase the salt slightly.
Although less water would make it easier to work with I'm afraid to loose the wonderful hole structure.
Flavor was everything I hoped for.
Will try again with some small changes since that's what we do here in the lab.
Trying the No Kneed Bread and giving a running commentary.
well as my first try at any sour-ish fermented bread, I tried this one.
So far I am 15hours in. The dough is gooey/battery and has lots of bubbles.
I am excited :)
I went out and bought an earthenware casserole dish to try with this. :S I hope it works.
I am taking photos of this, and also its made with 100% spelt. I am interested to see how it goes.
So now, 18 hours on, I decided 2.5 hours ago that it looked fermented enough to fold and rise. So I waited in total 16 hours. I think :S
I folded it, which I thought was going to be difficult. but turned out pretty easy. I was very confident. :) I generously floured a tea towl with some white spelt flour and thought some poppy seeds would be nice so I aded them also. I put the dough in, rested it in a collander and covered it and left it.
Well, it was time to put it in the pot, and it stuck with force to the tea towl. :(
I had to scrape it off! I hope it still works! I have a feeling the pot is too big and I will end up with a flat loaf.
Oh no! I just realized I turned off the oven by accident! I think it was about 15-20 mins ago! I realized as I took the lid off for the crust to harden and thought the oven didnt feel very hot......not for 500 degrees F or 260 deg C. I looked and saw the light wasnt on!
Instead of turning off the dishwasher at the wall it was the oven! I hope this doesnt effect the bread quality. I was making it for a "pot luck" dinner tonight.
Well, at least I can see where I went wrong.
I took the lid off too soon.
The bread seems ok considering I turned the oven off for 20mins by accident.
The loaf is flat, dark brown (almost burnt but surprisingly the bottom is stil pale) and ugly. Mainly because the mixture was too little for the pot. Next time (if there is one) I will double the mixture.
I will see how it tastes when it cools down.
I will also let it rise in an oiled bowl. So it doesnt stick to the tea towl as if it didnt want to be baked! So. I can definitely say that may future efforts at bread are going to be interesting to say the least and a bit (or more) of a learning experience.
Look forward to it though :)
So it looks as though its Soda bread for the pot luck!
Last Edit.
Had to add, Beside from the burned top crust and the flatness of the loaf. It tastes pretty good.
I was surprised to find the crumb so open and the bread actually feeling like bread. (I was skeptical with my previous Spelt experience) So to find the bread spongy and full of holes was great. No matter the outside.
I will make this again.
new le creuset
Well, found out that le Creuset had a warehouse sale yesterday here in the UK. Went to it and bought a 6 quart casserole for £49 instead of the list price of £115. Also a 4 quart and an oval casserole. So I should find one that is suitable for this method!
I'm going to use yeast for the first try of this method - I have onle used sourdough for ages now but want to try the original method before I start to experiment.
Anyone have any idea of the quantities involved in Metric???!!
Andrew
Le Creuset
If you're buying the Le Creuset just for baking bread, I'd recommend getting a cloche instead. It's cheaper (about $50 U.S. before shipping) and is designed specifically for bread. You can see my results with a cloche here.
Instead of buying a cloche...
Make your one:
Large flower pot: $8-10
Large Eye Bolt and washer: $2-3
No shipping costs, no waiting. Total expense: $10-13
AND,
your local nursery will also sell you a large flower pot base-- which if sized correctly, to fit your flower pot cloche, can act as your baking stone. Downside: Not so easy to slide bread, pizza off a peel due to the raised edges. But still, total investment: $20-25.
Flower Pot Bread
Using a flower pot is a nice old trick. But, in researching this previously on the Internet, some people have pointed out that some of these unglazed pots contain lead. This is not food-grade cookware, so the buyer -- and eater -- must beware. Unfortunately, finding out which pots contain lead and which do not is a difficult task. The retailers usually don't know, and if you're lucky enough to find the name of the manufacturer, often they don't know or won't say, or will just tell you that their products are not meant for cooking.
bruc33ef
Interesting Issue,
My flower pot is made in Italy. I did some searching and found this home lead test kit. Which I have not purchased yet.
http://www.leadinspector.com/?gclid=CPLbyI7b74gCFQFrVAoddA9_pQ
I noticed that Alton Brown made a flower pot smoker and demonstrated it on one of his shows. I wonder what his take on the lead/terracotta question is?
I've been digging around a
I've been digging around a bit. Apparently, the terra cotta from Mexico and China is most risky. In Italy, it's thought that the terra cotta used in Ancient Rome for the aqueduct and elsewhere caused widespread lead poisoning, but I think you can scratch that as a possibility in your case. The glazed terra cotta is certainly riskiest, but some unglazed terra cotta apparently is colored with a lead-based substance.
Here are some links for people to research this and determine their own threshold of risk: