The Fresh Loaf

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Disapointing Whole Wheat Bread

DakotaRose's picture
DakotaRose

Disapointing Whole Wheat Bread

I don't know what the problem is this year, but every time we make a whole wheat bread with red wheat flour it doesn't rise well and we never get any oven rise at all.  It is so disappointing.  I never had that problem last year, but this year it never fails to disappoint.  I am using the same recipes as last year, but nothing works.  Our sourdough breads aren't bad this year, but I don't use any red whole wheat flour in them because I don't want them to come out as hard lumps of bread.  Any ideas.

 

Blessings,

Lydia

 

Here is the recipe

2 t. salt
2 1/4 c. water
1/3 c. honey
1 T. yeast
6 c. flour (equal parts, red whole wheat, white whole wheat and Kamut)

Cooking202's picture
Cooking202

so I started using 1/4 cup vital gluten per 6 cups of flour and that eliminated my "lead" loaves. 

Carol

Big Brick House Bakery's picture
Big Brick House...

If you are grinding your own grain, are you checking the temp when you are done? If it gets to hot it kills the gluten and nutrition, it shouldn't go over 115 degrees. Is it fine enough, if it is course, feels like sand, it will create bricks.  You might have to add more water also because the way it absorbs it. You could add in a different flour to still use it.  Also humidity has a roll in this, might have to reduce your water.  I also see that you don't add any egg, that does produce a low rising bread also.

hope that helps.

 

DakotaRose's picture
DakotaRose

Yes, the flour seems quite course.  I wish I ground my own, but instead I get it ground from the mill.  I tried again adding the 1/4 c. of gluten and still it won't rise properly and falls as soon as it starts to bake.

 

Blessings.
Lydia

Postal Grunt's picture
Postal Grunt

Not that I'm an expert but I'd like to suggest that you try using a sponge of half the flour. I baked a loaf using half whole wheat and half unbleached bread flour this past week. I started with a sponge of the WW, water, and 5g of active dry yeast. After two hours, I added the remaining flour, an egg, salt, a TBL of brown sugar and a couple TBL of butter. The bulk fermentation was done in 40 minutes, I shaped the dough for a pan (thank you Jmonkey!) and did my proof in 40 more minutes. A quick score and into the oven for about 40 minutes gave me a loaf that my wife heartily approved and ate.

You can't go too far wrong using a sponge.

DakotaRose's picture
DakotaRose

I will do the sponge.  I use to do the sponge method, but for some reason putting it out of my mind with this batch of bread.  Life gets a bit hurried with little children and sometimes this mommy forgets things tha worked in the past.

Blessings,
Lydia

Patf's picture
Patf

Just an idea - perhaps the mill you obtain your flour from is using a different type of wheat. You say it was ok last year.

I don't know anything about types of wheat available where you are (I'm in France) but I know that flour varies greatly acc. to the type of wheat and especially gluten content.

I use a Hovis wholemeal flour, imported from the UK, and the recent batch produces much less rise than previous ones.

DakotaRose's picture
DakotaRose

I guess that could very well be beings they get all sorts of wheat in.  I think they just use the hard red spring wheat when they mill the whole wheat flour, but I guess it is also possible that they substituted some hard red winter wheat.  They keep a record of each lot so I will have to go and see today.

Blessings,
Lydia

rayel's picture
rayel

I have never baked with Kamut, and since last year's recipe came out well, it is probabaly not the culprit. I wonder though, how much gluten Kamut develops and contributes? Is two cups the amt. you are using? If so, might it be too much? I find white whole wheat to have a different feel then when I use 100 % whole wheat. The dough always seems to work differently for me with white whole wheat. I have never needed to use vital wheat gluten in my breads. Could some detail, like a warmer or longer (or both) proof gone unnoticed?  I am thinking of warmer room teperatures in August, when I mention warmer proof. I hope you find the elusive gremlin in your process.  Good luck.  Ray

DakotaRose's picture
DakotaRose

My understanding is that Kamut doesn't contain much gluten and that its gluten strands are not very strong.  That is why I don't use a great deal of it in a recipe.  I have found that my breads are always better with the white whole wheat, but I thought I would give the red whole wheat flour another try.  It always seems like such a fight to get a good loaf with the red whole wheat.

Blessings,
Lydia

rayel's picture
rayel

I forgot to mention that I have had great oven spring when using course whole wheat flour. I, like Postal Grunt, have better breads with the sponge method, than with straight doughs. My recipes from Laurels Kitchen Bread Book, usually contain small amts. of oil or butter, for their dough conditioning effect. I am wondering if 1/3 cup of honey stimulates the yeast so quickly, that the bread is more easily overproofed. (idle musings) Laurel's recipes usually use honey as a sweetener but 3 Tlbs. per 6 cups flour, plus oil or butter. I had something similar happen to me with a spicy currant bread, containing 2 cups apple juice and 2 tlbs.molasses, which I thought was a lot of sweetener at the time. When I put the loaves in to bake they seemed to first begin to spring but later sagged. They were far from completly flat, but dissapointing anyway. The recipe also contained 1/3 cup bran that had soaked for hours, so that could also have contributed to the small amt of oven spring.  Great bread but smaller slices.  Ray

DakotaRose's picture
DakotaRose

I will try cutting the honey down a bit in the recipe to see if that helps at all.  This years oven spring has just not been there, but then again I haven't been slashing the loaves beings my blade has disappeared and when I try to use a knife it always seems to deflate the loafs.

Blessings,
Lydia

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Interesting points:

Additional gluten doesn't seem to help.  I have read a study (Cereal Chemistry;1992; Rubenthaler, Polmeranz, Huang) Steam and high gluten flours that do just what you are discribing when steamed.  Why not try reducing the gluten?  Try substituting some low gluten oat flour into the recipe and see what happens? 

Collapsing in the first 10 minutes also indicates possible overproofing.  I think it is uncanny that even with the air conditioning on, my dough "knows" it is summer and is easily overproofed.   Try underproofing drastically, don't let it rise until it looks ready to bake, keep your eye on the clock instead.

Red wheat flour.   Are we talking spring or winter wheat?  Is there a chance that you had one last year and the other this year?

Mini

DakotaRose's picture
DakotaRose

Thanks for the info.  I will give it a try in the next batch of bread.  I noticed that they also now carry the oat flour and I am dying to give it a try anyways.  LOL

Never tried the underproofing.  I will try a few loaves with that method as well.  I am worried it might be my oven as well.  The crazy thing has been acting strange.  Taking forever to preheat and sometimes never getting to the correct temp even after it should be preheated.

Blessings,
Lydia

rayel's picture
rayel

That cereal chemistry study indicating steaming high gluten flours might work against what we are trying to achieve is fascinating. The loaf I was describing, with extra bran and lots of sweetener, was steamed. I remember my wife said that I should have left well enough alone. The moment I steamed the bread it seemed to stop dead in its tracks. Then it actually went the other way. Downward. I could barely believe my eyes. I wonder if you still have a link to that study? Ray

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

type in the name of the study, Steamed Bread. IV. Negative steamer spring of strong flours   there are plenty of hits.  I have this as a 4page PDF file.

http://www.aaccnet.org/cerealchemistry/abstracts/1992/CC1992a76.asp

rayel's picture
rayel

Hi Mini Oven, thank you again for providing that study. I read it.(wow a lot to ingest) Please don't ask me if I understood it all. I am still in disbelief that lower protein fours can out perform so called strong flours in certain circumstances. It sure is counter intuitive. I tried to find it on my own but uncovered portions of the study that seemed to suggest it was talking about steamed bread that was not baked. Perhaps I was just too tired.  Thanks again  Ray

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

But I get the notion that's not your bread's problem.  Can we link back to where you discribe your loaf?   -Mini

DakotaRose's picture
DakotaRose

Well I know it wasn't from steaming beings it was not steamed.  I never seem to be able to steam our 100% whole wheat breads beings the humidity is so high here.

Blessings,
Lydia

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I spied what I thought was a purple walnut sandwich loaf in my local supermarket and to my surprise it turned out to be black bean & rice!  I just had to try it.  Having it with breakfast and I am quite pleased.  That reminds me how much black beans can soften and lead to a nice high rise. 

another interesting clue.... high humidity   

How's the underproofing going?    I slash sometimes with a wet scissors and kids can do it too!

Mini

Crust and Crumbs's picture
Crust and Crumbs

I too had the same problems with my honey wheat bread. Added gluten and some lemon juices as one recipe called for and had the same outcome. So when it didn’t rise I thought maybe being in higher altitude I needed more yeast, flour, water and still won’t rise any higher than the pan and sinks when baking it. So I’m at a loss right now in knowing what to change. Never thought about it being my red wheat berries but it doesn’t say anything about them being winter vs spring. 
Have you had any more luck on what to do different???

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

It may help if you explain your issue in a little more detail.  When you say it did not rise, are you saying that during bulk ferment- you did not get an increase in volume?  If so, there is something wrong.  I normally bake with sourdough, not commercial yeast, and most everything i bake is with 100% home milled wheat with no sifting.  One issue I see is that whole wheat can degrade faster - meaning you have to get the bulk fermentation and final proof spot on to get an airy loaf, because if it goes too long, it will fall as it cooks instead of springing.  But I have not have an issue where it fails to rise at all. 

 

Crust and Crumbs's picture
Crust and Crumbs

It will start rising right after putting dough into my bread pans, but after about 2-3 hours it stops rising and I’ve tried going ahead and baking it and it will deflate as it is being baked. So I know I’m doing something wrong by not addressing big enough of something or adding too much. I grind my own wheat berries on a fine setting and sift it. These are my ingredients for two 9” loads.

INGREDIENTS

  • 4 cups all-purpose flour ( 3 1/2 cups of hard white wheat berries) 
  • 3 cups wheat flour ( 1 1/3 cups of hard red wheat berries)
  • 1 ½ tablespoons  yeast
  • ¼ cup vital wheat gluten 
  • 2 cups warm water
  • 1 tablespoon lemon juice, bottled or fresh
  • 1 tablespoon olive oil 
  • 2 egg yokes 
  • ⅓ cup honey
  • 2 1/2 teaspoons salt

I normally heat up my water to 105-110 degrees, add in my yeast, let rise. Then add in all my wet ingredients mix then add in my mix of 3 cups of flour with 1/4 cup of gluten. Let sit for about 15-30 mins then add in my remaining flour. 
so not sure why it rises for a little bit then stops rising and never rises an inch over the pan line for that nice round top. It always taste good and has the perfect sponge like feel and is nice and soft and not hearty at all. So I don’t know if it’s the red hard wheat I’m using or the timing.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

"after about 2-3 hours it stops rising and I’ve tried going ahead and baking it and it will deflate as it is being baked"

You've used very warm (105-110F) water to make the dough, which should get fermentation off to a fast start. 

I may not be following your meaning exactly.  There's a 15-30 minute rest period after mixing the part of the flour with the wet ingredients.  Then the remainder of the flour is mixed in.  There isn't a mention of bulk fermentation or shaping or final fermentation, so I'm left with the impression that the loaves are shaped immediately after mixing and allowed to rise 2-3 hours.  Have I understood your description correctly?

Since you are making 9-inch loaves, it appears that the dough quantity is rather small.  To get a loaf with a rounded top, you are pushing fermentation to an extreme that causes the loaves to break down and collapse.  Here's what I suggest:

  1. Scale up your recipe to produce more dough.  Add at least one, possibly two, cups of flour and adjust the rest of the ingredients proportionally.  (Here's where using a scale instead of cups would make your life much easier.)
  2. Bulk ferment the dough until it has nearly doubled, which might take an hour or so.
  3. Shape the loaves and place them in prepared pans.
  4. Final ferment the loaves until the tops are approximately half an inch above the rim of the pans.  Depending on the dough and room temperatures, this might take an hour or so.
  5. Bake the loaves.  Oven spring will complete the loaves' expansion.

The above steps should get you a lot closer to your intended goal. 

Paul

Crust and Crumbs's picture
Crust and Crumbs

Your correct after I mix all my ingredients I normally shape two loaves and put them in the pans and let them proof, cause I thought maybe that would help my timing in them rising an inch over the pan. And thought maybe I only had so much time for the yeast to work before it would stop. 

I never had any problems when using store bought flour but grinding my own and trying our fresh flour has been a little more tricky for me. 

I will try out adding more flour and what you suggested to see if it works. When getting the yeast going I was always told and looked up that you need your water to be anywhere from 105-110 degrees to activate it. Should I use a lower temperature of water before mixing in my yeast?

pmccool's picture
pmccool

The water temperature you are using will work fine.

Now a question of mine: when you used purchased flours, did you use All Purpose, as shown in your ingredient list?  If yes, that is a different thing than flour milled from white wheat, even if you sift out some fraction of the bran.  AP flour is bran-free, so it will produce a lighter, loftier loaf than flour that you or I can produce with our home mills, even if we sift it.  That may be an important contributor to the results you have seen.  Since it appears that you are making a 100% whole-wheat, or a 100% high-extraction, bread, it stands to reason that it won't be as light as a bread made with white (AP or bread) flour.

Even so, it appears that the quantities are better suited to 8x4 pans, rather than 9x5 pans, which is why I suggest you make a larger batch of dough.  Note that the 9x5 pan will hold 1.4 times as much dough as the 8x4 pan.

Further, by skipping the bulk ferment, you are depriving the dough of time to form more strength.  Although it looks as though it is just sitting there, the yeast's gas production is inflating the alveoli in the dough and stretching the gluten network.  That gentle working of the dough helps improve its strength.  If you were to give it a fold or two during bulk fermentation, that would be even better.

Shaping after bulk fermentation also adds strength to the dough, enabling it to stretch further as the dough inflates during the final fermentation.  Just watch that you don't over-proof during final fermentation.

Paul

 

Crust and Crumbs's picture
Crust and Crumbs

Paul, can’t thank you enough for taking the time out of your life to help out a fellow bread maker/ or hope to be one at least. I will definitely give it another try and see what the outcome is. Thank you again and have a wonderful day!!! 

Crust and Crumbs's picture
Crust and Crumbs

After doing some more researching I may have the wrong percentage of flours to make it rise all the way through. I found this…..

So if making a whole wheat bread try using 30% whole wheat and 70% bread flour. 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

It is certainly possible to achieve a well-risen loaf of 100% whole wheat bread using 100% freshly milled flour.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/71297/20221020-simple-100-wholewheat-bread-clas

Yippee 

Crust and Crumbs's picture
Crust and Crumbs

Thank you so kindly for the info and link I will most certainly give it a shot and see what outcome I get from it. 😁

Yippee's picture
Yippee

💪💪💪

Yippee 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I did not see any mention of how you actually handled this dough. The list of ingredients is helpful but with WW doughs, the technique is almost more important than the ingredients. 

A great, moist sandwich loaf is certainly achievable with 100% whole grain but you must know how to work with these ingredients, esp if the flour is a little course in texture. You will never have a light,fluffy loaf with 100% whole grain but it will be good and can rise well. As an aside, kamut has great gluten but it is the very extensible type. Loaves made from 100% kamut flour generally need either a lot of support, another flour to add structural strength or play to kamut's strengths and make a flat bread or a pizza dough.:) As a partial ingredient with other flours, it adds great color (golden) and flavor.

So the real "secret" to having a really great sandwich loaf with 100% whole grain is two-fold:

1. The flour (esp course flour) MUST be well hydrated. This means both the amount of liquid AND a sufficient amount of time absorbing the liquid into all those branny bits. That is why folks have suggested using a sponge method. There has to be something built in to the method to allow the dough to soak. I like to make a really tacky,wet dough and put it into an oiled container and refrigerate it over night. By the time morning comes around, it is usually,soft and barely tacky. Ready to finish rising,shape,proof and bake.

2. Knead to windowpane. If the dough is not kneaded to windowpane, there is not enough starchy gel to form a nice crumb. 

Use the search box and try "fluffy whole wheat". Or look at my posts over the years. I have posted a lot on this subject.

Have fun!

jo_en's picture
jo_en

Hi,

I tried the sourdough called CLAS and it really transformed my bricks into very enjoyable slices for sandwiches.

Now loaves from start to finish take about 4.5 hrs from grinding the flour to having a golden loaf hot and fresh.

Others have said that the fineness of the grind is important - I agree!  I try to improve the grind by sifting out the coarse particles and whirling them in a small spice/coffee bean grinder for about 35 sec. I add the results back into the flour.

I hope you'll get back to the loaves you were enjoying!