The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Montreal Style Bagels

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Montreal Style Bagels

Woman does not live by rye or barley alone.

So this woman decided to follow suit, when she saw that a lot of other bloggers on The Fresh Loaf were having fun with bagels. I have a formula for Montreal-style bagels from my instructor at baking school. He got it, scribbled in pencil on a brown paper bag, from bakers at the St. Viateur Bagel Bakery where they've been supplying bagel lovers since 1957.

First, I had to scale back the formula. St. Viateur makes almost 10,000 bagels a day at its main location, so the original formula is a big one. It uses 40 kilos of flour, which they make several times a day. At school, we cut that back to 5 kilos. I thought I might manage with 1 kilo at home, which would produce just a baker's dozen. Even so, my poor Kitchen Aid mixer was straining. I quickly moved to hand kneading after the dough came together.

I'll publish the recipe below. There are two significant differences from others I've seen. Firstly, no salt. That always surprises people. I never know how to answer. Either the baker forgot to write it down, or it's what makes this particular bagel extra chewy and delicious. I don't miss it -- not a bit. Secondly, no proofing. At all. You can even skip bulk fermentation, if you let the bagels rest in the fridge overnight after shaping. Or production can be a continuous process after bulk fermentation where you go directly to dividing, shaping, boiling and baking. Then eating. :)

Here's the dough after 8 minutes of kneading:

bagel dough

You can see the stiffness characteristic of bagel dough.  I flattened the ball to a circle about 2" high and used my bench scraper to divide it into 4 oz. wedges. These, I rolled into strips much as Jeffrey Hamelman describes in Bread. As you handle the dough, it becomes smoother and more pliable.

I hadn't made these in over two years, but it was coming back to me. (Don't stack them like that...argh, they'll stick together. Oh yeah, keep a spray bottle handy to mist them or remember to cover with plastic while I process the rest. Wait a minute, no dusting flour...best worked on a damp surface!) The stream of consciousness continued, as I talked myself through the vague memories that my hands recalled better than my brain.

shaping bagels

Then came the boiling and seeding. We never worried about colouring the water much. A handful of brown sugar or some malt syrup if it was handy -- just enough to help gelatinize the starch on the surface in a tasty way, making the bagels smooth and shiny. The dough already has sweetness from malt extract. Today, I used about 2 T of brown sugar in the boiling water. I love sesame seeds, so I used them for most of the bagels and coarse salt for the rest.

boil n seed bagels

Here's what they looked like at half-time on my baker's half sheet pan in the oven. #13 of the baker's dozen got squished. That's okay. I found they needed extra time to brown properly. So near the end, I divided them between two smaller sheet pans without parchment and jacked the heat back up for about three minutes. Did the trick.

bagels at half time in oven

Who's got the cream cheese?

    fresh from oven

Montreal Style Bagels

1 kilo bread flour (about 8 cups)

2 grams instant yeast (2/3 tsp)

40 grams sugar (3 tbsp + 1/2 tsp)

9 grams malt (4 1/2 tsp)

50 grams egg (1 large)

463 grams water (scant 2 cups)

2 1/2 tsp vegetable oil

Scale or measure out all ingredients. Blend dry ingredients together in mixing bowl. Add wet ingredients and mix until dough starts to come together. If using a stand mixer, change to hand kneading at this point rather than strain the motor of your machine. Continue kneading until developed fully. At this point, you have some choices. The instructions that follow are for continuous processing. If you want to incorporate overnight retardation, see my two replies to Michael below.

Cover the dough and give it about 45 minutes rest on your counter, aka a period of bulk fermentation. When the time is nearly up, put a large pot such as a Dutch oven full of water on to boil and throw in 2 T brown sugar or some barley malt syrup. (Honey or maple syrup are fine, too.) Divide the dough into 13 units of about 113 grams (4 oz) each. Roll into strips and shape as bagels. There is no need to proof the bagels once shaped, but keep covered and/or mist so they don't dry out. Place on a sheet pan beside the pot of water. Process 6 or 7 at a time, however many will comfortably fit in your pan, moving them around in the water periodically for a minute or so. When ready, they float. Remove back to the sheet pan, and put the next batch on to boil.

While still damp, dip the boiled bagels in your preferred topping and place on a second baking sheet which has been lined with parchment and sprinkled with cornmeal. (If you have a hearth-style oven, the bagels may be placed on a peel or other loading device sprinkled with cornmeal and transferred to the oven to bake directly on the hearth. The technique with a wood-fired, brick oven is different again, one with which I'm not familiar.)

Bake out completely until a nice, golden brown, about 20 minutes at 460F. Reduce the temperature after the first 10 minutes, if your bagels are getting too dark. As mentioned above, I had all 13 bagels on a baker's half sheet, roughly 17" x 12", and they weren't quite baked through where they touched. I transferred them to two smaller sheet pans without parchment and gave them an additional 3 minutes. There was a lovely smell and a small bit of smoke when I opened the oven door. The bagels were perfect!

Comments

apprentice's picture
apprentice

I can see why your family puts you to work when you come to visit. Your bagels are perfect from the exterior to the crumb, and I have no doubt, in the taste as well. As I told painterman above, you guys made me hungry, the pictures most of all! I really appreciate your taking the time to write. But mostly, I'm so delighted that the gift of this recipe, passed on through so many generations of bakers, has found another fan in you. One who does it proud. Well done!

TheReligionInBread's picture
TheReligionInBread

Those bagels look perfect KxRjsWpO! What minor tweaks have you made to the recipe?  Do you stick with no salt? How long do you boil them? Do you flip them over?

I tried this recipe twice.  I ended up having to flip over the bagels when I used the high 460F start temperature.  I also tried out a cinnamon sugar coating on a few instead of the sesame seeds.  It was like a yummy desert bagel, a little tougher on the outside but still worked. I used the Montreal bagel recipe with the sourdough starter modification shared by Noonanna.  I am curious to know what tweaks are working well for KxRjsWpO to incorporate in my next batch.

Thanks!

painterman's picture
painterman

@apprentice, The malt that you are using , is it Non Diastatic or Diastatic malt  powder . Thanks again! 

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Hi painterman, good to hear from you. It's the non-diastatic. Malt flour is sometimes used as a synonym for non-diastatic malt powder aka extract in the baking industry, but I hesitate to comment definitively on what any particular manufacturer calls his/her product. For instance, the word "extract" is sometimes used as the name for barley malt syrup. The product I use is a powder called barley malt extract.

The diastatic versions of malt can be problematic if not scaled precisely. Can lead to gummy results. Normally, bread bakers find that there are sufficient enzymes in well-balanced flour from a good mill, so it's unnecessary to use diastatic versions. What you're after instead, using malt in bagel dough, is the unique malt flavour, some sweetness, and added nutritional value along with help for fermentation and browning.

btw, I'm guessing you're in Canada since you're able to source Keynote flour? I'm hoping you know about Keynote 39, which is Robin Hood's formulation especially for bagels and pizza. I find Keynote 39 and Keynote 45 (bread flour) in 20 kilo bags at Wholesale Club locally, a division of the Loblaw's chain. If other Canadians are reading this later who don't have access to a Wholesale Club store, I believe Robin Hood's Best for Bread flour in supermarkets is the same as Keynote 45. It works fine for pizza and bagels, too.

painterman's picture
painterman

Hi Apprentice, Wow thanks for all that info. This malt thing is was very confusing, you did a good job of making it more clear. I have been using the non type all along so all is good. Problem is that it is no longer available on Amazon.Ca. The barley malt extract that you use ,is it available to purchase online?  Yes I am in Ontario not far from Belleville. The Keynote flour I bought just says Keynote, A different mill makes the flour for Robin Hood and it looks like they do not have Keynote 39 or 45. But they do have several other specialty flours for pizza  . Have you tried boiling the bagels in the malt, seems that is a thing. Thanks again for all your help...Ever though of teaching? Stay safe and keep your space. 

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Hi again, painterman. The good thing about malt is that you have options, not only diastatic vs non-diastatic but flour, syrup, and extract or dried. As I said previously, most bakers shy away from the diastatic versions because there are sufficient enzymes for converting starch to sugar in well-balanced flours from reputable mills. However, the diastatic products can be a huge help to bakers who are milling their own flour. There are specific guidelines for how much to add to different doughs all the way from 0.5% of flour weight up to 5.5%.

Bakers also shy away from malt syrup for bread products because it's inconvenient to work with--sticky, heavy and bulky compared with dried malt (sometimes called malt extract). That said, I do use Eden Food's organic barley malt syrup whenever I make Winnipeg rye  bread. It's non-diastatic, readily available, and easy enough to spoon out the small amount I need for my formula (molasses being the suggested alternate). I dissolve it in the water, so it spreads more readily throughout the dough. That's probably what I'll do for the bagels when I run out of my malt extract powder if it's no longer available locally.

I seem to recall another commenter using the syrup because that's all they could find in their area. One might have to throw in a touch more flour or cut back slightly on water to compensate for the additional moisture. Plus the dry malt has a slightly higher sugar content, so I'd probably increase the sugar a touch as opposed to an extra bit of syrup. Re: using the syrup in the boiling water, it's a fine idea. I'm a Scot, though, so I look at the price difference between my Eden's syrup and brown sugar. No contest, brown sugar every time. :) But you only need about an oz. of syrup per 3.5 kilos of water if you add some sugar as well. That way, you'd get the best of both worlds - extra malt flavour along with a smooth shiny surface. Go for it if the idea intrigues you. Some people use other sweeteners like honey or maple syrup, but to my knowledge not for a Montreal-style bagel.

I bought the product labelled Barley Malt Extract locally in Victoria BC, packaged for the store by Annie's Natural Foods. No idea if it's actually non-diastatic, but I strongly suspect it's the syrup that's undergone complete evaporation by means of a spray drying process with heat that would kill the enzymes. I believe Annie's was bought out by General Foods. I'm still working on the bag I bought ages ago. Don't make a lot of bagels since I visit family in Montreal often enough to satisfy most, but not all of my bagel cravings.

Re: the Keynote flour, I see now that the designation 45 vs 39 is no longer showing on the bag. Vaguely recall I was able to assure myself last purchase that it was the 45 by looking at the store's info on the shelf label. The company changed the name to Keynote Strong Bakers Flour as the main designation with product number 10496. It's from Ardent Mills in Mississauga, and they added the message "New Name, Same great flour since 1909" beside their logo. I can check what the bags are called that Wholesale Club is continuing to shelve under the Keynote 39 designation. There might be also be info on the mill's website: www.ardentmills.ca

Thanks for the kind comments. I'm not sure I have the stamina to be a teacher, but I do love sharing what I've discovered with people who are truly interested.

painterman's picture
painterman

Hi Apprentice, Thanks again for your input. Just baked some stay at home bagels.This batch was done wife fresh duck eggs.. 

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Yep, anybody who loves to bake isn't bored during this time, at least so long as you can source ingredients. Nice for this batch that you had access to fresh duck eggs! They look delicious.

Had planned to drop you a quick line for a couple of reasons, but you beat me to it! One is that looking for something else in Hamelman's book Bread, I happened to see his recommendation for subbing malt syrup for powder in his recipe for Toast Bread. He says, for that recipe anyway, that you can use malt syrup at about 5x the weight of the powder. Or it can be left out entirely without greatly changing the bread's handling characteristics and flavour.

The 2nd reason was to say that I noticed a difference between the product numbers, if that's what they are, for Ardent Mills' strong bread flour sold down east and that sold on the west coast. Their website shows the number 10495 on the bag (front bottom left), whereas the bags sold here in Victoria show 10496. It's the same product, and my bill for the latest bag still calls it Keynote 45. I won't be able to check for awhile on what Wholesale Club is selling locally under the former name Keynote 39. I'm on total lockdown, being in the vulnerable category with underlying lung health conditions. Wonderful friends are picking up my supplies for the time being. However, I note on the mill's website that they say their strong bakers flour is good for bagels, pizza, pan & hearth breads, flat breads and Vienna rolls.

 

 

painterman's picture
painterman

Hi Apprentice, I think that 10495 is bleached and 10496 is unbleached flour. Found an interesting use for diastatic malt in making mashed potatoes. Hanson has a recipe that I am going to try tonight. Ya  fresh duck eggs are very rich, fun to experiment with. I have been in voluntary    locked down for a couple weeks now. Stay safe.      

apprentice's picture
apprentice

You're absolutely right about the variations for Keynote. Hadn't looked closely enough at the Ardent Mills' website except to see the image up top of 10495, the bleached one. And in the list to the side, that they also have Select, Super and Untreated versions. Glad we get the unbleached Keynote locally. Sounds like you're having lots of fun in the kitchen. Me, too! You stay safe as well. And all your loved ones.

headdown's picture
headdown

Hello apprentice,


Thank you for posting this bagel formula! I live near Pembroke, Ontario, and spent part of a winter in Montreal, one block from Fairmount Bagel. I almost lived on their bagels, and am hoping this formula is similar in taste and texture. I have not had a bagel from St. Viateur.
I can get a 13% unbleached white flour at Bulk Barn. Do you think that will do until I can track down a flour more specifically for bagels? I just bought a pound of dry malt extract on Amazon, as I could not find it at either Bulk barn or a local brewing supply store. I will try honey for the water bath.
What has me particularly excited is that I am just breaking in the Alan Scott oven that I built last summer. It is not quite finished yet, but is usable. I hope to have everything I need for the first attempt within a few days and will post the results. Thanks again!

Dean

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Sounds like you will, Dean! Re: your question about the flour, can't speak to the quality of flour from Bulk Barn. In your shoes, I would check out Wholesale Club on Front St. in Pembroke. They may stock the exact flour used by St. Viateur, which I noticed in pictures posted by them online. It's from Ardent Mills and formulated specifically for pizza, pan bread and bagels. It's now called Keynote Select Strong Baker's flour (former name Keynote 39). Product number for the unbleached version is 10457.

My local Wholesale Club used to sell it, but now just carries the Keynote strong baker's flour formulated for bread, rolls and pizza (product no. 10496). But it does a fine job on the bagels, too. All their Keynote products come in 20 kilo bags. Not terribly expensive, somewhere around $18 CAD. The Pembroke store's website only shows product # 10597, one called Super Keynote which I wouldn't recommend for bagels. It's been treated to enhance gas retention for larger volume. All this product info is available btw on the Ardent Mills website.

You don't need a membership to shop at Wholesale Club, at least not here in Victoria. If 20 kilos is more than you want to buy, you could try Robin Hood's Best for Bread. I believe it's Ardent Mill's supermarket equivalent to Keynote 10496 and widely available in smaller bags. Kudos on tracking down the dry malt extract extract. About the honey, it might produce a more bland result than you'd enjoy. My baking program instructor recommended dark brown sugar. Seems to give a result very close to the real thing, i.e., authentic Montreal bagels, though I'm not able to bake them, as you will in a wood fire oven.

Wow! That's one heck of an oven you've built. Good for you. You'll probably get amazing bagels with that! Look forward to hearing how you make out.

headdown's picture
headdown

Hello apprentice,
Well I am having a very hard time finding the appropriate flour. Wholesale Club had two employees working and both were busy with lineups at the til. I saw no flour visible anywhere in the store. I will try calling them and see if they can order 10457 for me. I contacted Ardent Mills hoping for a link or a store in my area that sells it. But I searched their website for 10457 and turned up nothing. Bulk Barn appears to have stopped labeling their flour's protein percentage. Instead, it gives 4 gms protein per 30 grams of flour.  This works out to 13.3%.  For all their flours. So I have no idea which is 12 or 13% anymore. Not sure if the virus and supply problems have anything to do with this or not.
I searched all over Pembroke for Robin Hood Best for Bread with no luck. Pickings are slim, and all there seems to be on the shelves is all purpose no matter where I go.
As for the honey in the water bath, I recently found this video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBfgVuP6udQ which says that Fairmount Bagel uses honey in their water. Since I am used to the taste of Faimount Bagels, I think I will try honey for the first attempt.

I made baguettes yesterday and roast chicken in the brick oven today. Now that I am this close to tasting Montreal bagels again, I have developed a serious craving. Hopefully I will find the right flour soon or I may have to make a trip to Montreal to visit Fairmount Bagel and the empanada restaurant 1/2 a block away on the corner of St Urbain.
Thanks again for the info and I will let you know how the search and first attempt goes, whenever that is.

Dean

headdown's picture
headdown

Hello again apprentice,

I talked to Wholesale Club on the phone today and they can get me a sack of what used to be 10457. The told me the name is the same, but the number has changed to 10497. And unfortunately, it is bleached. Unbleached is not available. Except for colour, do you think this will make much difference? I should have the flour next Wednesday.

Meanwhile, I am too impatient to wait any longer, and thought I would do a practice run with the 12% unbleached flour that I usually use for Tartine style bread. The oven is firing now, and I should have some bagels to try later this evening. 
I am going to use homemade bagel boards, but don't have any burlap for them. I am only doing sesame seed though, and I love them totally coated, so I am hoping that will prevent them sticking to the boards. The plan is 3 to 4 minutes on the boards, then flipped onto the hearth and baked until done. I am hoping to have a small fire flickering against the back or side wall of the oven, and will use a piece of angle iron to shield the bagels from the direct flame if necessary. Getting the oven to 450 - 500 degrees is not difficult for me, as I am used to doing that for bread. But having a fire going at the same time adds a new wrinkle, and I don't know how much or how fast that will raise the overall oven temperature during the bake. I guess I will find out soon enough!
Dean

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Crossing all my fingers and toes for you, Dean, in the practice run tonight. I've never worked with a wood-fire oven, so can't offer any advice. But I expect you'll learn a lot in the process and maybe even have some yummy bagels to eat. You may have them already! Must be just after 8 pm now in ON. 

About the advice from Wholesale Club in Pembroke, I'm mystified. According to the Ardent Mills website, there is no Keynote strong baker's flour with the product number 10497. There's a bleached one with product number 10597 called Super Keynote. That's the one I mentioned, treated to enhance gas retention for larger volume breads, that was listed on the website for Wholesale Club in Pembroke. If that's the case, maybe they're just trying to sell you what they have rather than order another product in for you? No idea what the gas retention thing is all about, but "Wonder Bread" comes to mind for me. Be sure to check out the product number carefully if you stop by the store Wednesday. It might be okay even if it is the 10597. I can't say for sure one way or the other. But I'd be more inclined to look for a strong flour that's good for pizza if I couldn't get the 10457. Both pizza and bagels benefit  from a good, strong flour.

Meanwhile, take a closer look at the Ardent Mills website. Here's the page with ALL their offerings in the strong bakers flour category. You just have to scroll down in the box to find all of them. When you click on the product number, they give you detailed product info after a slight pause. Product #10457 (formerly keynote 39) is clearly listed as still available under the Keynote Select heading, and it's unbleached.   https://ardentmillscaprod.azurewebsites.net/products/traditional-flour/strong-bakers.html

If you click on what they call the "Sell Sheet" for any one of the flours, that takes you to a pdf about the mill's entire flour portfolio. The second page has recommendations for what each flour is best used. Here's the link: https://cms.ardentmills.ca/uploads/sell-sheets/en/Flour%20Portfolio.pdf

Oh and I'm sorry for not thinking that you might have trouble sourcing Robin Hood's "Best for Bread" flour in supermarkets at the moment. So many people have got into bread baking lately, probably with time on their hands while "sheltering in place". It's a good thing really. 

Carol

 

 

 

 

headdown's picture
headdown


Hello apprentice! And thank you for the info about the flour. I will call Wholesale Club tomorrow and double check that number. They gave me the impression it was recent that it was changed. Ardent Mills got back to me and were very kind but told me the minimum order was 1200 sacks of flour!

Tonight went much better than expected for my first attempt with the wrong flour. The bagels are very good, but I have a few things to work on. There is a stronger malt taste than I am used to from Fairmount Bagels, but I can adjust that to my liking in future batches. The bagel crust seems a little tough..almost like the very beginning of going stale. The crumb is very nice though..creamy and soft as it should be. Overall I am thrilled, and can’t believe that I can make bagels like this or better any time I get a craving now. 
For anyone interested in the oven technique that I used, first I burned the dome clean, which took about 3 hours and took the oven to about 800F. I spread the coals and let them burn down a bit before removing them and sweeping and mopping the hearth clean. I put the door on and left it for about an hour. When I returned the oven had equalized and stabilized at around 650F, and was slowly dropping as the heat moved deeper into the mass of the oven. I timed the bagels to go in when the oven was at about 525F with the door still on. I figured with the door off, it would drop at least 100 degrees, and with a small fire burning off to the side, I hoped to have it maintain around 460F. 
I returned some of the coals to the oven and put a piece of angle iron to shield the bagels from any direct flame. The small pieces of wood I put on the coals to make a small amount of flame didn’t catch so much as smoulder and created too much smoke. And the temperature of the oven started falling below 400F with the door off. So after 4 minutes on bagel boards, I flipped the bagels onto the hearth. I then removed the pieces of smouldering oak, and sealed the oven shut with the door. This brought the temperature back up to about 450F, and the bagels came out of the oven after 20 minutes total time. I like them a little light, and with loads of sesame seeds, so they were perfect for my taste 

Thank you so much again for posting this formula Carol! I expected a long and winding road to get to where I got with one attempt, and I have you to thank for that. I feel about 80% of the way to where I am trying to go, an am confident the last 20% is probably just a matter of time and practice. 

Dean

apprentice's picture
apprentice

And that word "awesome" barely covers it. I'm so happy for you!!

 

Arn0's picture
Arn0

Hi, I lived in Montréal for 10 years and now back in France, I tried your recipe a couple of times and really liked it, you did a great job. However I have 2 questions about flour and barley malt.

What would be the equivalent of your bread flour? Is it T65, T80 or T110? I'm a little lost.

I can't find barley malt powder non-diastasic but instead found some barley malt syrup, do you think I could work something out with this?

I would really appreciate your input on this. 

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Hi Arn0, happy to offer a couple of suggestions. But first, all credit for the formula goes to the source, the St. Viateur shop in Montreal, delighting people with their bagels since 1957. Also to my baking program head & chief instructor from Vancouver Island University who was having a great chat with the bakers on a visit to Montreal and asked if he might have the formula. To his surprise, they scribbled it out then and there! Of course, as noted in the comments above, these are only "Montreal-style" because it's impossible to duplicate the shop's ambience and the taste that comes from a wood-fired oven. But we've come close.

Yes, of course, you can use barley malt syrup. For tips on how to do that, check back in the comments. Others have done that, sharing their results, and I offered some thoughts. If you take the time to read through the comments--there are only two pages--you'll learn a lot of other useful things as well from folks who tried their hand.

I'm afraid I'm not up on the flours of France. My recommendation would be to post this question to all and sundry on the website. We have some very knowledgeable participants, including a truly gifted baker who lives in France. Not sure if she's still active on the site, but someone will be able to help you. I did check a recipe book I have from l'Ecole LeNôtre, which you undoubtedly know has a worldwide reputation, and saw they recommend something called 65-grade flour when making their pain sur levain.

Good luck! And happy baking.

Arn0's picture
Arn0

Thanks for your quick response! 

I'll read the comments again, I most likely missed something. I was told to look for a high protein flour. I'll check that. 

 

headdown's picture
headdown

Hello am0,

This is definitely not my recipe, and apprentice is going to likely be much more knowledgeable than I about it. I am also unfamiliar with the flours of France, but I think if you use the highest protein you can get that would likely be what you want. I think French flour tends to be lower in protein than North American flour.
And I am glad you asked about malt, as I have been meaning to return here myself to ask apprentice a question about it.  And my question is - what effect does different malt powder have on the final taste of the bagels? I bought mine from a brewer supplier, and they sell several "flavours" of malt. Since the malt taste is so noticeable, I can't help think the type of malt could have a big effect on the final flavour.
I have done a few more batches, and while I love the flavour, I am still not totally happy with the consistency of the bagels. They strangely seem slightly stale when just cooled from the oven. I will figure it out eventually. And I once again want to thank apprentice for posting the formula! I will be using it forever.

Dean 

Arn0's picture
Arn0

Thanks, I appreciate it. 

I too am looking for something as close as possible to a Montreal bagel which I loved so much. My attempts were very promising but something was off, maybe the flour or the malt and they were slightly stale too.

I'll give it a try with a different flour and adjust the barley malt syrup. 

headdown's picture
headdown

Hello AmO,

Have you tasted Fairmount bagels in Montreal? They were just across St. Urbain from where my gf and I lived.  Their bagels were so good and so convenient that I never tried any other bagel shop like St. Viateur's. I was wondering if you knew if there was much difference in taste or texture between St. Viateur's (this formula), and Fairmount bagels?

Dean

Arn0's picture
Arn0

I wish I could tell the difference but my palate isn't trained enough. I think the texture is slightly different tho. My go-to was st-viateur because easier to get. 

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Hi Dean, sorry for delay in responding. But I haven't experimented with flavoured malts, so not much advice to offer. Just a guess that there would be some impact, likely noticeable to a discerning palate. Maybe worth an experiment if there's a flavour that appeals to you?

Have been wanting to post as well about the bleached vs. unbleached flour issue for some time. Can't speak for the whole baking industry, but in my experience bleached flour is a no-no for bread products by and large. What it's perfect for is fine cakes and pastries. Historically, North American recipes for butter cakes, etc. were developed using bleached flour. So our European friends have a heck of a time when they want to use a recipe, say, from the US. Some UK folks posted on Rose Levy Beranbaum's website (author of The Cake Bible) about microwaving plain flour and other such experiments to use locally available ingredients for her recipes.

That's a digression, but I was wondering if bleached flour might cause the slightly stale quality that you've noticed in previous batches. Or is that problem solved now? Stunning results with your oven. Lovely work.

headdown's picture
headdown

Hi Carol,

Do you know if there is malt available that is not flavoured as it is from a brewery supply store? I didn't seem to have a choice but to select a flavour, but I don't know if that is just because of where I bought it.
I was only using bleached flour to get rid of some that I had to buy if I wanted to bake at all when flour was in short supply due to covid109. I had no luck finding a source of the Keystone flour that would sell a sack at a time only. So I have been using flour 331 from Bulk Barn. It is an unbleached hard winter wheat flour. Last year they advertised it at 13%, but this year it is 12%. It makes really good bread and pizza dough, but I don't know if it is the best I could be doing for bagels. I do still have the issue of them seeming to be instantly a little stale. And it's not just the crust but the crumb as well. I have been eating St. Viateur's bagels lately, and they are much softer to chew than mine. I will hopefully figure this out next summer.
I am just about to try to get across the border with my RV and head to the desert for the winter. I am a dual citizen so I should be able to cross. But that is just about it for enjoying the oven for 6 months. Back to the Dutch oven for a while.

Dean

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I've purchased malt-syrup made from brown rice at Korean and other Asian grocery stores. It tasted malty to me.

Usually in the same aisle with other syrups, vinegars, and oils.

Usually labeled "Brown Rice Syrup" on the front label, but read the ingredient list on the back to confirm it is malt syrup.

They "should" have an English ingredients label or sticker. If not, ask a clerk to translate. Do not just ask "is this malt syrup?", because some will say "yes" just as a shortcut.

 Look up brown rice syrup and malt syrup on wiki for more details.

Arn0's picture
Arn0

Thanks again for this recipe! 

There is the last batch I made, very happy with the result. 

apprentice's picture
apprentice

My instructor at baking school always used to say if we got some of our products baked a little on the dark side, especially croissants, "That's not overdone. It's just European style!" :)  Your bagels look great. So pleased that you had a good result with which you're happy. Did you use the T65 flour? 

Arn0's picture
Arn0

Thanks! I did yes. 

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