I'm sold!

Beautiful write up, as we've become accustomed to, Shiao-Ping!

I am only allotted so much time per week (or even month, for that matter!) to experiment with new recipes, or work with ones that have layers of steps, but you got me.. I absolutely must try this one = )

I vote front page! = )

- Keith

Shiao-Ping

Frivolous experiments or not, you are a great treasure.  This is a must try.

Ty

Having home brewed beer in the past, I'm curious enough to ask if some of the dried beer yeasts must be used in baking bread. Obviously, they are cultivated for different characteristics from bread yeasts, are more expensive and are usually just sold in home brew beer shops. However, I can't see any reason why they wouldn't work for bread. Proofing times might be difficult to judge without experience. I've seen a single package of British ale yeast turn a five gallon carboy of wort into a foaming yeast beast that that took about four days to ferment out.

If someone has actually tried this, I'd be interested in the results and what you thought of bread's flavor.

Thank you for this very nice formula for a wonderful.  ' Barm Bread'.  Not to be nick picky..most understand steaming instructions -but you never know- 9:30- someone might steam for the whole bake time!

Sylvia

Looks interesting Shiao-Ping,

Was there any hint of the flavor of the Ale in the bread? I'm guessing it was a mild sour as well.

Eric

I love an ale taste in my breads. I must say, your breads always look perfect. Dave

I have just realised that I committed yet another "naughtiness" in calling this loaf "Dan Lepard's Barm bread."  Sorry, Dan. 

James MacGuire, after seeing my post at TFL, was very kind writing to me and told me that:  

The recipe calls for bottle conditioned beer because bottle conditioned beers still contain live yeast which settles on the bottom of the bottle and can be stirred and cultured to make barm. Conventionally bottled beers and beer in tins like the Kilkenny in [your] photograph do not contain live yeast and therefore cannot be used in the recipe.  

No wonder my "barm" took so long to ferment!  Now I know why.  Sometimes when I read English, I don't get the exact meaning -- like bottle-conditioned beer is not bottled beer.  Now I know.   

Thank you, James.  

Shiao-Ping

As with pursuits in most fine things in life, one may learn about sourdoughs or breads and obtain most information about the subject in a very short space of time; however, only after years of experience in the field can one grasp the nuances and subtleties.

James MacGuire was very kind and wrote to me that:                      

With regard to the Art Of Eating miche and flavor, I don't feel that the no knead or the 80% hydration are at play in terms of flavor. Calvel was fond of straight doughs---panification en direct---because the subtle fermentation flavors allowed the delicate flavors of the flour come shining through.  

To discern the delicate flavors of the flour, the flour we use has to be "right" in the first place.  How many tongues can differentiate the various delicate flavors in flour, given the "right" flour?   Why can't everybody be a good sommelier?   It may not be just a matter of training.   

I made a hasty call when I said at the beginning of the post that the flavors of all those super-hydrated crumbs are not deeply alluring for me; after all, I have only made them three times, each time with different flours and variations, making subtleties with each harder for me to accumulate and compare.   

Thank you, James, once again.    

Shiao-Ping    

I suppose purists would object to your post. It was very nice that your brought to light that your "barm" wasn't true to the definition.

I know I, as well as the majority of your fellow TFLers, have enjoyed this and all your posts. New flavors will be awakened with the choices of different flours, brews and baking techniques. Your pleasure in the flavor of this bread has already enticed others. That's why we are here, that's why we share.

Thanks again,

Betty

Both the bread and the writeup!

I've yet to try it, but recall the "65C soupy dough" is sometimes referred to as a water roux (湯種) starter, which can help improve the texture of the bread.

Now in terms of bottle-conditioned beer, is that the same thing or very similar to an unfiltered wheat beer, such as a Hefeweizen?

- Jackie

Thank you for introducing 'the Art of Eating' James MacGuire article and Breads Shiao-Ping. It's been a revelation to me to put the mixer aside and get into the dough so directly again. Revisiting time and temperature through the methods James uses has already brought about more experimentation and creativity with the simple loaves I had been making on my own.

But, I'm a bit confused about the quote from earlier today:

James MacGuire was very kind and wrote to me that:                      

"With regard to the Art Of Eating miche and flavor, I don't feel that the no knead or the 80% hydration are at play in terms of flavor. Calvel was fond of straight doughs---panification en direct---because the subtle fermentation flavors allowed the delicate flavors of the flour come shining through. "

I was just seeing more clearly the connection between the fermentation time and this style of handling of the dough and how directly the Bread quality seemed to be affected by the no-knead, hydration, temperature, yeast% etc.

If the no-knead and the hydration are not at play in terms of flavor where does James recommend we put our focus?

Above all, many thanks again for introducing these methods of Mr. MacGuire's. His work is hard to come by and of great help and fun to play with.

Dave

i am going to try this tomorrow with "Coopers Sparkling Ale" all Coopers beers are bottle conditioned. Having a sample one now.

小蘋：

麵包，做的越來越美.....也許8月底老師朋友去拜訪妳時，可以託她們帶一個給我吃？

There have been lot of writing about what is bottle-conditioned beer, but the nail hasn't been hit exactly on the head yet. Bottle-conditioned beer is unpasturized beer that has undergone a second fermentation in the bottle by tapping the "finished" beer on the bottle with a little bit of sugar. The purpose is partly to produce CO₂, instead of adding this artificially.

I guess the ale gave some flavor to the bread anyway an thus wasn't in wain. I will try this recipe when my homebrew is finished.

I am in awe, Shiao-ping

Loved everything about this thred: the photo of the bread, your writing, and you join two things I am fascinated about: China and Dan Lepard  :-)

I am going on with the Baker's Apprentice Challenge, and that has been limiting a little bit the kinds of bread I can try, as I only have the weekends to indulge in yeasty activities  :-)

but I MUST make time to bake this barm bread. I've had the book for a few years, but never tried that one.

谢谢，
牛莎丽

I looked around and found the following list of a few bottle conditioned beers:

• Brasserie d’Achouffe (Belgium) N’Ice Chouffe (up to 5 years)
• Chimay (Belgium) Grand Reserve Blue (up to 5 years)
• Sinebrychoff (Finland) Porter 1996 Bottling (up to 5 years)
• King & Barnes (England) Millennium Ale (up to 10 years)
• J.W. Lees (England) Harvest Ale 1998 (up to 10 Years)
• Unibroue (Canada) Quelquechose (up to 10 years)
• Young’s (England) Old Nick Barley Wine (up to 10 years)
• Lindemans (Belgium) Gueuze Cuvée René (up to 15 years)
• Frank Boon (Belgium) Gueuze Mariage Parfait (up to 20 years)
• Cantillon (Belgium) Gueuze (up to 20 years)
• Eldridge Pope (England) Thomas Hardy’s Ale (up to 20 years)

And from AMerica:

Alesmith beers

Arcadia London Porter, Lake Superior ESB

Bell's Two-Hearted

Sierra Nevada Pale Ale

Stoudt's IPA, Fat Dog Stout, Abbey Triple

Yards Love Stout, IPA

No doubt there are many others.  Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is a great tasting beer for drinking, too.

Ty

I made this bread over the weekend with wonderful results, but I made some changes to the recipe. 

To begin, I retarded the mix overnight in the refrigerator, because it better suited my work schedule.  The next afternoon, I formed the cold dough into a single boule, then let it proof for 4 hours at room temperature in a banneton.  I baked it on a stone at 450 for the first ten minutes, then 425 for the remainder of the bake.  For steam, I used a cup of boiling water over lava rocks in an iron skillet.  I got very good oven spring, a nice crust, and a moist, airy crumb with an intensely wheaty taste.  I decided to refresh the leftover barm with equal weights of flour and water and try for another batch.

While the first barm took 24 hours to double, this second mixture took only about 5 hours. The yeast was apparently still active.  I did as before, mixed up the dough and put it in the refrigerator overnight.  This time I pre-heated  the oven to 500 degrees and immediately lowered it to 450 for the first 15 minutes of baking.  Then I completed the bake at 425.  My loaves were smaller this time (two boules) so they only took about 50 minutes to complete. 

One loaf I baked on an open stone with steam as before, and the other I baked in an Emile Henri clay pot with a cover.  The boule that was baked on the stone appeared flatter with not as much oven spring as the first batch, but the interior of the loaf still had large, irregular holes and a creamy, moist crumb. The boule baked in the Emile Henri had more height, but I think I got a much better crust on the first boule, probably because I forgot to take the cover off the baker.

All in all, the second batch was very successful, producing loaves that were somewhat milder than the first but still very flavorful.  The bloom was not quite so dramatic as the loaves produced with the original barm, but I suspect the reason is that I didn't allow for quite enough proofing time.

It should be noted that these beers listed by Ty are SOUR beers.

·         Lindemans (Belgium) Gueuze Cuvée René (up to 15 years)

·         Frank Boon (Belgium) Gueuze Mariage Parfait (up to 20 years)

·         Cantillon (Belgium) Gueuze (up to 20 years)

That is, they are fermented with wild yeasts and bacteria. Sort of like the beer equivalent to a sourdough. So expect a different, more sour, flavor if using any of these.

-Bob

I am soooo happy I finally managed to make this bread!

It is absolutely delicious!  The taste is quite differente from your regular levain bread, like Shiao-Ping I used only white flour.  I had no idea if my barm was at its peak, as it was the first time making - I do think it was slightly past its prime time, but it worked very well

I don't think I would have tried this bread if it wasn't for this thread, so a huge thank you is in order.  

I used Chimay beer, allowed it to ferment for about 30 hours - followed the recipe exactly as described in Lepard's book. Baked in a clay pot, 30 minutes covered, 15 more uncovered, at 430F

Hello Shiao-Ping, 

I am much inspired by your pictures and your version of Dan Lepord's Barm bread. They look exquisite, I must make it too.  I have Dan's book and will bake soon. I heard that barm breads are rather challenging at times.  I will give it a try. 

Cheers, 2brownbraids

I made this bread today and it is amazing!  I added a small peeled, steamed yukon potato to the dough mix and it came out with a crisp crust and a tender crumb.  My crumb was more dense then the one in the photo, but it was soft and flavorful.

Hi folks

i came across your site and this discussion and felt enthused to join the site and forum.

I live in the South West of England and bake once a week for a Saturday morning market. I use Ale Barm for most of my breads and have just over a years experience with it.

Let me say that I have not tried Dan Lepards recipe, but started from the Robert May loaf given in Elizabeth Davids "English Bread and Yeast Cookery".

I am fortunate that there has been a rennaissance in the brewing trade in Britain and many small breweries are thriving locally. I call on one of them each week and collect a bucketful of wonderfully rich Ale-barm. I believe this differs from barm created using bottled beers in the following ways.

The Ale-barm is a combination of yeast and partly fermented wort. It has a very pronounced bitterness from the hops, a rich maltiness and also a sweetness from the unfermented sugars. As a frequent drinker of "Real Ale" I would say that the taste of ale-barm is like a "raw" beer or perhaps half cooked. It also has an alcohol content of around 2% ABV.

The yeast content is variable and can present a challenge in producing consistent results.

My standard starter consists of 400g Ale barm, 1200g Flour, 2000g water. mixed lightly and left in covered bucket overnight. The flours I use are Dark Rye, White and Malthouse (Granary)

I use these starters to make a whole variety of breads and find that the starter method brings out the richness of the barm without imparting bitterness. The 100% rye bread that I make, using a sourdough type recipe, produces a beautiful flavoured malty loaf with a hint of sweetness.

I also use the barm with french T55 flour to make sticks and batons, and a couple of times when I have run out of compressed yeast have made croissants with barm.

The Robert May loaf works a treat every time, and I have now started making it with a White Spelt flour as I felt that this would be more similar to the coarser flour of the 17th century.

Getting late here and I still haven't found the ciabatta recipe I was looking for so will end for now.

I would be interested to hear if anyone else out there is using "real" ale-barm, and I am always happy to field questions and share what I have learnt so far.

Shiao-Ping (or anyone who has experience with barm breads),

I have prepared the balm as per Dan Lepard's recipe, and it has been resting for around 16 hours now...but the ale is sitting on top, and underneath is a sludge of flour and starter. I've stirred the barm mix a couple of times, but after a while this separation of ale and flour sludge occurs again.

My starter is fresh and active, and I maintain the feeding daily; I have used it successfully many times for baking all sorts of sourdough breads, bagels, banana bread, etc. So I'm sure there is no problem with the starter.

I'm just wondering, should it be obvious by looking at the barm that fermentation has taken place? I note Shiao-Ping's took 36 hours to look bubbly, and I'm hoping mine will also come good in time, but at the moment it doesn't look very promising!

Would be grateful for any insights or soothing reassurances!

Cheers
Ross

Thanks, Ken, but I decided to go ahead and make the dough when bubbles started bursting regularly on the surface of the ale. I had been stirring the barm every few hours, but the separation of ale and flour/starter continued. Anyway, the  dough appears to be rising, and is in the final 2 hours of proofing before going into the oven...feeling optimistic, but we shall see.

Thanks for sharing your adventure in barm breadmaking. I just came across the term, and as an amateur brewer as well as cook I was intrigued with the idea of making my own bread using the barm from my beermaking. I will be trying it out using your guidelines next time I brew!

One step I am curious about is where you heat the ale to 70C. That's high enough temperature to pasteurize, which in theory would kill any active yeast in the beer. Obviously something was fermenting when you tried it, so either not all yeast cells were killed (though as others pointed out if you were not using bottle-conditioned beer you likely had no active beer yeast in there to begin with) or you were getting activity from wild yeast or bacteria in your environment-- lactobacillus is everywhere, and as you probably know is what provides that tangy associated with sourdough bread (lactobacillus is also the bane of most brewers!).