The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Why milk powder in milk bread, and not just milk?

audra36274's picture
audra36274

Why milk powder in milk bread, and not just milk?

    I just got my copy of Secrets of a Jewish Baker, and got up this morning going to make milk bread. Scanning over them I noticed that they all contained milk powder instead of just plain milk. I have seen the ads in KA claiming the the rise is far superior with their milk powder. I had some but it has gotten old. Surely little old Jewish men and women centuries ago were not going out to milk the cow for milk powder to make bread. Maybe its a dumb question, but why can't I just use milk? Help!

                                                                      Audra

proth5's picture
proth5

you can't use fluid milk in place of the dry milk and some (or all) of the water.

You may wish to do a little math and see how much fluid milk would be made based on the amount of dry milk called for in the recipe. for the dried milk I use 23 gms (about 1/3 cup) of milk powder is combined with approximately 204 gms of water to make a cup of milk (this is not accurate down to the nth degree, but really, it is close enough...) So, if the recipe called for 1/3 cup milk powder you could omit the milk powder and use about 1 cup of milk.  You would then reduce the water by somewhat less (about 204 gms less).

You may also wish to scald and cool the milk as some milk enzymes will interfere with yeast action (depending on the type of milk you use - best to be safe.)

That's why I like using powdered milk in my breads - less fuss.  KA touts that their WHOLE milk powder is superior to the standard non fat dry milk.  If you are using whole milk, you should get similar results.

Hope this helps.

audra36274's picture
audra36274

I'm glad that was the recomendation. My milk powder was too, and was a bit um "crunchy" in its container.

audra36274's picture
audra36274

  but a quick step so that we can skip the scald, and still not have to worry about the fears of the dreaded glutathione flattening the bread? With children, we always have milk on hand, but now I see what all the fuss is about. Thank you all!

   Well the loaf is in the oven now. I didn't scald, but I think I over proofed a little while the oven preheated. Now if it is a little off, I'll wonder if it was the over proof, or the non scalded milk. Next time I'll try to guard against both. I will make a note in my book. I just went in and had a look. It is half way done and had very little, if any oven spring. My vote at present is over proofing. I will try to post pictures, so you can see that when I slashed, it fell a little and never made a recovery. Not the tall smooth loaf I wanted, but I did gain a lot of information on this first try. I'll try to make another middle of the week or so and see if I can iron out the difficulties. Any one who makes milk bread feel free to chime in.

                                                                                 Audra

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   Sorry about all the butter, my daughter is a big fan of fresh buttered bread. In fact her favorite part was the butter ditch created down the center! It did sink although the picture doesn't show it well. I will definitely make this again.

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Audra, lovely looking loaves and we have no problem with butter in this household!  I enjoy using both milk powder and milk in my baking...I do scald my milk before using....making yogurt was what catch me onto as the 'why' to scald before using in my breads.  Great Photos and shaping too!

Sylvia

ejm's picture
ejm

I make bread with milk powder OR actual milk OR yoghurt all the time. I have never scalded the milk before adding it to the dough mixture. The resulting bread, even if I am the one saying it, is stellar.

Scalded milk is milk that has been cooked to 82°C/180°F. At this temperature, bacteria and enzymes in the milk are destroyed. Since most milk sold today is pasteurized, which accomplishes both of these goals, milk is typically scalded simply to increase its temperature.

(excerpt from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalded_milk)

However, this article says that some feel it's essential to scald milk:

Not even the experts agree about what scal[d]ing milk achieves.

Howard Hillman, travel and food journalist, writes: "Scalding has two primary purposes: to kill pathogenic microorganisms and to destroy certain enzymes that would keep emulsifying agents in the milk from doing their thickening job. Since those two goals are accomplished when milk is pasteurized at the dairy, scalding need only be done when you use raw (unpasteurized) milk. Many cookbook writers do not know this fact and therefore direct their readers to scald the milk even though it is usually unnecessary today"

A food scientist professor, however, believes that it is necessary. Zoe Ann Holmes (Emeritus Professor, Nutrition and Food Management, Oregon State University) writes that there is an element in milk that can weaken gluten. Food scientists aren't sure what it is yet (as of 2006), but suspect it's a protein in the milk that acts somewhat as a protease. Heating the milk to 198 F (92 C) inactivates the element -- whatever it is. If left active, the bread will be coarser and less risen than one made with scalded milk.

[...snip...]

All that being said, most home cooks now maintain that they ignore scalding directions, and life in the kitchen has gone on without the ceiling falling in. You can probably keep on doing what you are doing, scalding or not scalding, until more science is found on this issue one way or another.

(excerpt from http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/scald)

It seems to depend on whether the milk is HTST (high temperature short time) or UHT (ultra high temperature) or ESL (Extended Shelf Life)

In the HTST process, milk is forced between metal plates or through pipes heated on the outside by hot water, and is heated to 71.7 °C (161 °F) for 15–20 seconds. UHT processing holds the milk at a temperature of 138 °C (280 °F) for a fraction of a second. ESL milk has a microbial filtration step and lower temperatures than HTST. Milk simply labeled "pasteurization " is usually treated with the HTST method, whereas milk labeled "ultra-pasteurization " or simply "UHT" has been treated with the UHT method.

excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization

This is fascinating! I just checked the fridge and see that the milk we buy is simply "pasteurized", indicating that it is HTST. Next time I make bread using milk, I may find myself scalding it - even though I'm pretty convinced that it won't really make much difference at all....

-Elizabeth

P.S. Amazingly, our copy of Harold McGee's "On Food and Cooking" does NOT have an entry about scalding milk!

P.P.S. Yikes!! I almost forgot to say: what beautiful looking bread, Audra!

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   I did love the taste and texture of this bread. I will definitely make it again. I will try not to over proof. The recipe said to rise till it gets to the top of the pan. Well it got to the top in about 45 minutes, which I had expected it to be slightly longer. And then I had to let the oven preheat.It had more than doubled at that point.

  I may try the milk powder, and the scald method just to compare notes. I don't for see this bread as being hard to get rid of at our house. Eviltigerlily, thanks for the insight on the Jewish part. I am not, and was thoroughly thrown off by it. I wonder what they did use a century ago instead of the powder, or did they just not eat this during certain religious holidays. You'll have to help me on this.

   Phil, thank you for putting the book into my head and getting me to order it. I love it. I have read it all the way thru almost and only had it a few days.

   Dan, I would like to try a side by side on the scalded v. non just like they did in C. I.  That is such a great magazine.

  Sylvia, thank you and great to hear your in the house!

   emj, thanks for all that info, and to think that when I ask the question this morning, I had no idea I would learn all this! Wow! You guys are the best.

                                                              Audra

ques2008's picture
ques2008

glad you started this discussion.  i too was wondering about why some recipes specify milk powder versus actual milk.

folks, can you give me some brands of powdered milk - i know carnation is one.  i live in canada and i'm not sure what brands are sold here.

thanks.

ejm's picture
ejm

We buy "no name" powdered skim milk from NoFrills (Loblaws). I have no idea if it is the same kind of powdered milk that is called for in various recipes. But I do know that it works just fine. (Next time I bake bread that has milk in it, I'll try scalding the reconstituted milk to see if it makes any difference to the rise and/or texture of the bread.)

Thanks, Audra, for introducing the subject! This has been fascinating.

-Elizabeth

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   I had no idea when it came up that there would be so much information over a seemingly simple question. I am a big Alton Brown fan ( I need to know why to understand things ) I can't just accept that something is. I probably drive my husband nuts! This one did sneak up on me though. Had someone just told me the Jewish kosher issue, I would have been satisfied and never looked back. But the scalding angle has been fascinating to say the least. Same ingredients, just changing the heat of one item and it changes the whole outcome. Cool huh?

                                               Audra 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Audra,

Your Milk Bread looks wonderful! Your posts are starting to look very professional:>)

If you have a chance, could you post the recipe for this?

I'm also wondering how Bakers Buttermilk powder compares to regular dry milk. I use buttermilk liquid in a direct swap for milk or water and it seems to give me a nice rise and soft crumb.

Nice thread Audra, thank you.

Eric

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   This is from Secrets of a Jewish Baker, and Phyl's photo inspired me to get the book and strike off! I'll try to post a Linc to his post http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11879/weekend-bake-courtesy-george-greenstein .

   There were several different processes, but the one I used was the sponge method. Also the big issue, I used whole milk instead of the water and powder.

   Milk Bread, Sponge Method ( page 37 )

 Sponge: 2 cups warm water

             2 pkg.s active dry yeast   (1 1/2 Tbsp.)

              3 cups A P flour

 

Dough: 4 tsp. sugar                               2 Tbsp. unsalted butter, softened

           2/3 cup skim milk powder            2 - 3 cups A P flour

           2 tsp. salt                                  water or melted butter for brushing loaves

 

Sponge: In a large bowl, add warm water and yeast and allow to stand for about 5 minutes. Add the flour and mix until smooth. Cover and let rest until doubled in volume, about 30-45 minutes.

Dough:  Stir down the sponge. Add the sugar, butter, milk powder,  2 cups of the flour and the salt. Stir until the dough comes away from the sides of the bowl. If it is too sticky add the remaining four 1/4 cup at a time as necessary.

  Turn out onto a lightly floured surface and knead, turn, and fold until dough is smooth and bouncy ( about 8 min ) . Cover and allow to rest for 10 minutes.

   Shape into 2 loaves, and place them seam side down in two greased loaf pans ( I used parchment instead) . Place, covered, in a warm place till dough reaches the top of the pan. Slash down the center, and brush with your choice of either the water or butter.

Bake: Preheat the oven to 375. Bake with steam on the middle shelf of the oven till lightly brown ( 35 to 45 minutes) . If you want a crustier crust, remove the bread from the pan for the last 5 minutes of the bake. Brush again with melted butter and let cool on a wire rack.

    Makes 2 loaves.

note to myself: 1# the rise in the pan came very quickly ( about 45 minutes) Have that oven ready to go!  

     2# By dividing the dough into weighed equal portions and shaping them into little "buns" and lining them in the pan ( like hot dog buns are in a bag in the store) ((single row only, didn't double stack )) you can simply pull off a section while they are hot from the oven without having to slice. Nice for those of us who love warm from the oven bread, and it doesn't upset those who insist that it must cool on a rack before slicing. 

 

Marni's picture
Marni

There's  always something new to learn on this site!  Thank you Audra for asking a question I also wondered about.  I bake my breads that call for milk with rice milk- that should really throw off the "how it rises" comparisons.  As was said here before, my family loves the result and that's what matters.  Thank you also for sharing the recipe, I might compare how a rice milk version compares visually with your dairy version.  Yours looks great - tender looking crumb, a definite kid pleaser!

Marni

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   When I joined I could make very nice rolls, and had a desire for more, I just didn't know how far that road would take me. At that time I thought if I could make a decent french bread along with the rolls I'd be satisfied, maybe a challah to show off with ( that was the search that landed me here) . But you get so inspired with the photo's and recipes everyone post. It's not a snob site. No question is ridiculed. There is always someone here to help. You feel at home the minute you enter the virtual door. And home is a great place to be.

Marni's picture
Marni

This is a wonderful site!  I get inspired here all the time, I just have to find the time to try everything.  (and get my kids to eat them!)

Since challah started you here, I wanted to share what I think is the best challah recipe around.  Eric (ehanner) posted it here and I have made it two or three times.  I can't find the link for some reason, but I copied to my email, so if you'd like it, just send me a message and I'll get it to you.

Marni

 

ejm's picture
ejm

Marni, I was intrigued and did search... here is Ehanner's Challah recipe. (At least, I'm pretty sure that's the one.)

Wow, lots of egg yolks! What do you do with the whites?

-Elizabeth

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   a cake takes 12 egg whites. I love to make Angel Food Cake. It never even gets a proper cut slice. We just go by and pull out plugs and keep walking, happily munching. If you've never made one, they are much better than the store versions.

   So Eric's challah and cake would be a good ( eggy ) friendship.

                                                      Audra

xaipete's picture
xaipete

And have done that exactly: one challah plus one angel food cake (we did slice our those).

--Pamela

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   but bread and cake......well now that's a whole 'nother ballgame!

                                                           Audra 

ques2008's picture
ques2008

well said, audra. i agree 100%.  this is not a snob site.  it's actually a very democratic platform, like open source technologies.  duh...what a comparison.

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

I'm resuscitating an old thread, I know, but I have a query that is sort of the reciprocal of one that was addressed above.

I have a SD bread recipe that calls for the addition of milk, but I want to use milk powder instead. I guess I need to substitute water equal to the quantity of milk in the recipe, but how do I then calculate how much milk powder to use? I'm just a little concerned that if I get it wrong the hydration of the dough will be skewed and that this might have an adverse effect on the finished loaf.

Would I reduce the substituted water a little to offset the weight of the milk powder, so that their combined weight equals that of the liquid milk in the original recipe?

I'm guessing I would, but that still leaves me with the dilemma of calculating an appropriate quantity of milk powder to use. I'm sure this is a dumb question, but I can't get my head around the required calculations! Can anyone help, pls?

Cheers
Ross

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

For American NFDM(non fat dry milk), it's 1 part nfdm to 9 parts water.

So if I want to make 10 oz of milk, I would use 1 oz nfdm and 9 oz water.

If I want an 8 oz cup of milk, put .8 oz nfdm in container and add 7.2 oz water.

etc, etc...

greydoodles's picture
greydoodles

Use 1/3 cup powder with water to make 1 cup milk. Being too lazy to determine the exact amount of water needed, I use 3/4+ cup. No problems so far, but I guess I will check the exact amounts needed, both volume and weight, the next time I bake. It will take a minute out of my life to do so. *lol*

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Just wondering, mrfrost, is there a difference that you know of for making the calculation with full fat milk powder?

greydoodles,

On no account would I want to be responsible for costing you that minute! There's a lot you can do with that time! Use it well. :)

Cheers
Ross

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

For Nestle Nido whole milk powder, the ratio is 1.05 oz powder to 8 fl oz water. This works out to a milk that is about 88% water, 12% milk powder.

So if you want to make an 8 oz cup of milk:

8 oz x 12% = .96 oz powder

.96 oz powder + 7.04 oz water = 8 oz milk. Of course you could just round to 1 oz powder + 7 oz water.

Good luck.

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

I used the 12% calculation in my current dough. The only thing is, you end up with the same weight of 'milk' as in the liquid state, but less actual liquid. The dough was too dry, so I added water by feel until I thought it was right, weighing as I added, and interestingly, it came together when I had increased the water content to about the weight of liquid that would have been in the recipe if I used milk in liquid form! This is the first time I have done this bread, though, so it might be that it would have seemed under-hydrated anyway with the flours I'm using. Curious to see how the finished bread turns out...

Cheers
R

ejm's picture
ejm

Generally there is a legend on the milk powder package (or sign over the milk powder bin at the bulk store) saying how much milk powder to use to make 1 cup of milk.

The skim milk powder we usually use is 1/3 cup (80ml) powder for 1 cup (250ml/ 250gm) water. (Sorry, no idea what the weight of milk powder is.)

Once it is constituted, whether it is full fat or low fat, milk should weigh pretty much the same as water. But if you really want to weigh everything carefully for your percentages, you could whisk the amount of powder into water and then add that to your bread.

Hope that makes sense.

-Elizabeth

 

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Thanks, Elizabeth...I had reached the same conclusions, and applied them in the bread. Worked out well. Very well, actually.  As stated above, I had to adjust the hydration up on the original recipe, but I suspect this was more about the flours I was using (and the fact that my dough composition deviated quite a bit from the source recipe) than about using dried milk instead of milk in liquid form.

Will do a separate post on this interesting and very yummy bread as soon as I have time.

Cheers and thanks all for your help re the dried milk issue.

Antilope's picture
Antilope

to inactivate the enzyme glutathione, that range from heating the milk to 180-F, 185-F, 190-F or all the way to 198-F.

Times to hold at the scalding temperatures range from just "briefly", or holding it there for from 10 to 30-minutes.

Is there some authoritative source that states a temperature and a time for scalding milk to assure that glutathione is inactivated for baking purposes?