The Fresh Loaf

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Why milk powder in milk bread, and not just milk?

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audra36274's picture
audra36274

Why milk powder in milk bread, and not just milk?

    I just got my copy of Secrets of a Jewish Baker, and got up this morning going to make milk bread. Scanning over them I noticed that they all contained milk powder instead of just plain milk. I have seen the ads in KA claiming the the rise is far superior with their milk powder. I had some but it has gotten old. Surely little old Jewish men and women centuries ago were not going out to milk the cow for milk powder to make bread. Maybe its a dumb question, but why can't I just use milk? Help!


                                                                      Audra

proth5's picture
proth5

you can't use fluid milk in place of the dry milk and some (or all) of the water.


You may wish to do a little math and see how much fluid milk would be made based on the amount of dry milk called for in the recipe. for the dried milk I use 23 gms (about 1/3 cup) of milk powder is combined with approximately 204 gms of water to make a cup of milk (this is not accurate down to the nth degree, but really, it is close enough...) So, if the recipe called for 1/3 cup milk powder you could omit the milk powder and use about 1 cup of milk.  You would then reduce the water by somewhat less (about 204 gms less).


You may also wish to scald and cool the milk as some milk enzymes will interfere with yeast action (depending on the type of milk you use - best to be safe.)


That's why I like using powdered milk in my breads - less fuss.  KA touts that their WHOLE milk powder is superior to the standard non fat dry milk.  If you are using whole milk, you should get similar results.


Hope this helps.

audra36274's picture
audra36274

I'm glad that was the recomendation. My milk powder was too, and was a bit um "crunchy" in its container.

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

Hi Audra,


I concur with proth5's opinion about using liquid milk if you want to.  You can still make very good bread with it.


The enzyme (or protein fragment) that is of most concern from milk in breadmaking is called "glutathione".  As the name might suggest, it works to weaken bonds in gluten.  If you need extensibility or tenderness, that might help you a bit.  Glutathione will usually reduce loaf height or volume, though, due to these weakening effects.


You can deactivate glutathione by heating the milk to 180 degreesF briefly.  That's the only reason to scald milk for use in bread baking -- standard pasteurization (at 161 degreesF)  should kill enough bacteria as long as you use the milk before it's expiration date.


Not all dried milk is heated to 180.  In my experience, the standard stuff you get in the supermarket (Carnation instant, etc.) is usually NOT heated to 180.  Not all dried milk used by foodservice professionals is treated that way either.


There is a very specific type of dried milk available to professionals called "high-heat" dried milk, and this designation means that the milk has been heated to at least 180 to deactivate the glutathione.  I think that's the stuff that King Arthur  is referring to when they say it will give you better loaf height.


Pro bakers like using dried milk because it is easy to scale in bulk and doesn't require refrigeration.  Scalding large quantities of fresh milk before use in bread dough is impractical.  For a home baker, though, if you're willing to do the conversions that proth5 describes, you would just need to scald the small amount of fresh milk you use very briefly to deactivate the glutathione and have essentially the same thing, except for fat content.


Whether I scald fresh milk at home depends upon the height I need in my bread and how lazy I feel in the morning.  You might just want to use fresh milk as it is and not bother with the scalding, or, if you want to try it, see if you think it's worth the extra effort.


--Dan DiMuzio

ejm's picture
ejm

It's my understanding that homogenized milk (whatever we buy in the supermarkets) does not have to be scalded before adding it to bread dough. This is because the milk is heated in order to pasteurize it. And for the extra long due dates, the milk has to be superheated (or at least that's what I've been led to believe).


Of course, you can scald the milk if you want to, but it isn't necessary. It's only necessary if you are using raw milk.


And of course you can use actual milk rather than powdered milk. Powdered milk is handy to have in the kitchen simply because it doesn't spoil when stored at room temperature. Powdered milk packages have the amounts to use per cup of water but for the powdered milk I use, it's


1/3 cup milk powder + 1 cup (250ml) water = 1 cup(250ml) milk


For some powdered milks, it's 1/4c to 1c water for 1c milk. But you can certainly be a bit casual and safely use more or less milk powder to produce perfectly acceptible bread.


-Elizabeth


 


 

audra36274's picture
audra36274

  but a quick step so that we can skip the scald, and still not have to worry about the fears of the dreaded glutathione flattening the bread? With children, we always have milk on hand, but now I see what all the fuss is about. Thank you all!


   Well the loaf is in the oven now. I didn't scald, but I think I over proofed a little while the oven preheated. Now if it is a little off, I'll wonder if it was the over proof, or the non scalded milk. Next time I'll try to guard against both. I will make a note in my book. I just went in and had a look. It is half way done and had very little, if any oven spring. My vote at present is over proofing. I will try to post pictures, so you can see that when I slashed, it fell a little and never made a recovery. Not the tall smooth loaf I wanted, but I did gain a lot of information on this first try. I'll try to make another middle of the week or so and see if I can iron out the difficulties. Any one who makes milk bread feel free to chime in.


                                                                                 Audra

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   Sorry about all the butter, my daughter is a big fan of fresh buttered bread. In fact her favorite part was the butter ditch created down the center! It did sink although the picture doesn't show it well. I will definitely make this again.


SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Audra, lovely looking loaves and we have no problem with butter in this household!  I enjoy using both milk powder and milk in my baking...I do scald my milk before using....making yogurt was what catch me onto as the 'why' to scald before using in my breads.  Great Photos and shaping too!


Sylvia

eviltigerlily's picture
eviltigerlily

Bread that contains milk isn't usually considered kosher. All products where it isn't obvious wheter they contain dairy or not must be clearly labled to avoid people consuming them with meat by mistake. Bread and pastry that contain dairy products are usually baked in a different shape to avoid confusion. Obviously when you bake it yourself this is not a problem.


The bread looks yummy.

ejm's picture
ejm

I make bread with milk powder OR actual milk OR yoghurt all the time. I have never scalded the milk before adding it to the dough mixture. The resulting bread, even if I am the one saying it, is stellar.



Scalded milk is milk that has been cooked to 82°C/180°F. At this temperature, bacteria and enzymes in the milk are destroyed. Since most milk sold today is pasteurized, which accomplishes both of these goals, milk is typically scalded simply to increase its temperature.


(excerpt from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalded_milk)



However, this article says that some feel it's essential to scald milk:



Not even the experts agree about what scal[d]ing milk achieves.

Howard Hillman, travel and food journalist, writes: "Scalding has two primary purposes: to kill pathogenic microorganisms and to destroy certain enzymes that would keep emulsifying agents in the milk from doing their thickening job. Since those two goals are accomplished when milk is pasteurized at the dairy, scalding need only be done when you use raw (unpasteurized) milk. Many cookbook writers do not know this fact and therefore direct their readers to scald the milk even though it is usually unnecessary today"

A food scientist professor, however, believes that it is necessary. Zoe Ann Holmes (Emeritus Professor, Nutrition and Food Management, Oregon State University) writes that there is an element in milk that can weaken gluten. Food scientists aren't sure what it is yet (as of 2006), but suspect it's a protein in the milk that acts somewhat as a protease. Heating the milk to 198 F (92 C) inactivates the element -- whatever it is. If left active, the bread will be coarser and less risen than one made with scalded milk.

[...snip...]

All that being said, most home cooks now maintain that they ignore scalding directions, and life in the kitchen has gone on without the ceiling falling in. You can probably keep on doing what you are doing, scalding or not scalding, until more science is found on this issue one way or another.

(excerpt from http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/scald)



It seems to depend on whether the milk is HTST (high temperature short time) or UHT (ultra high temperature) or ESL (Extended Shelf Life)



In the HTST process, milk is forced between metal plates or through pipes heated on the outside by hot water, and is heated to 71.7 °C (161 °F) for 15–20 seconds. UHT processing holds the milk at a temperature of 138 °C (280 °F) for a fraction of a second. ESL milk has a microbial filtration step and lower temperatures than HTST. Milk simply labeled "pasteurization " is usually treated with the HTST method, whereas milk labeled "ultra-pasteurization " or simply "UHT" has been treated with the UHT method.


excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization



This is fascinating! I just checked the fridge and see that the milk we buy is simply "pasteurized", indicating that it is HTST. Next time I make bread using milk, I may find myself scalding it - even though I'm pretty convinced that it won't really make much difference at all....


-Elizabeth


P.S. Amazingly, our copy of Harold McGee's "On Food and Cooking" does NOT have an entry about scalding milk!


P.P.S. Yikes!! I almost forgot to say: what beautiful looking bread, Audra!

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

 "Scalded milk is milk that has been cooked to 82°C/180°F. At this temperature, bacteria and enzymes in the milk are destroyed. Since most milk sold today is pasteurized, which accomplishes both of these goals, milk is typically scalded simply to increase its temperature."  I'm not sure who wrote this (which is sometimes the problem with Wikipedia), but part of that statement is incorrect.  Typical pasteurized milk is raised to 161 F, and it DOES NOT accomplish both goals.  As I mentioned above, that temperature will not denature glutathione.  It only kills microbes.  You must either scald milk to denature the protein fragment (which is not alive), or you must use high-heat dried milk, which is held at 190 degrees F for 30 minutes before it is dried and powdered.  No other dried milk will have its glutathione deactivated.


"A food scientist professor, however, believes that it is necessary. Zoe Ann Holmes (Emeritus Professor, Nutrition and Food Management, Oregon State University) writes that there is an element in milk that can weaken gluten. Food scientists aren't sure what it is yet (as of 2006), but suspect it's a protein in the milk that acts somewhat as a protease. Heating the milk to 198 F (92 C) inactivates the element -- whatever it is. If left active, the bread will be coarser and less risen than one made with scalded milk."   We know what the fragment is she's referring to -- it is the glutathione I just mentioned.  This is no longer a mystery.


If you'd like to learn more about this, I'd refer you to Paula Figoni's How Baking Works.  It can be purchased on Amazon.com, and it can answer things that McGee's excellent book just didn't have room for.  Cook's Illustrated magazine also did their own test, as they were skeptical of scalding having any noticeable effects.  Surprise! The loaves with scalded (and then cooled) milk rose significantly higher, every time.


That doesn't mean you absolutely must scald milk for yeast breads -- it just means there will be some difference.  Whether or not that matters is up to the baker.


--Dan DiMuzio

SteveB's picture
SteveB

Hi Dan,


If I remember my organic chemistry correctly (and that's a big supposition!), glutathione, in its reduced form, is a tripeptide with what I would imagine to be a fairly limited tertiary structure.  Is it possible that at high temperature, glutathione isn't so much denatured as perhaps oxidized, thereby preventing its free sulfhydryl groups from interfering with the gluten crosslinking?  Just thinking out loud...


SteveB


http://www.breadcetera.com


   

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

Well  . . . I don't know.


I have read the word "denatured" used in conjunction with the heating that takes glutathione out of the equation, but anybody who took organic chemistry, microbiology, or any other physical science in college (such as yourself) would know way more than me about that.  Should I stick with "deactivated"?


The key concept for a bread baker to know is that this protein fragment interferes with the formation of strong gluten bonds, and relaxes the gluten.  The same thing is present in dead yeast cells, which makes "active dry yeast" the form of manufactured yeast that will give dough a bit more extension.  Some bakeries purposely use active dry yeast or even completely deactivated yeast just to get the sort of relaxation that glutathione provides.  With bucky doughs made from spring wheat flour, the relaxation effect can be useful.


We don't need to sound an alarm about it, because you can make good bread without bothering to scald.  The dough just won't be quite as strong as it would be otherwise, and more often than not this will provide less volume.  It can also cause a coarse crumb.  If that's not a problem for the baker, then it isn't a problem at all.

audra36274's picture
audra36274

if I read you correctly then don't scald? Tall, soft and on the verge of collapse  for bread to make a sandwich maybe with a spread. Such as homemade pimento cheese? Scald for a tighter crumb? Then using steam manipulate the crust texture do achieve the desired crust for the purpose of the bread. Tougher crust holding semi soft bread interior for maybe a sandwich containing meat? Or either, toasted, such as in a panini to obtain the same results.


   In your opinions ( Steve and dghdctr) would there be a great amount of difference between the two? Each containing the same ingredients, just scalding the milk. Like I said above, I am planning to make more middle of the week. The recipe could easily be halved, using scalded milk in one loaf, not scalded in the other.  What would be your ( anybody's) prediction ? Same? Scalded outperforming the non scalded? Any body else want to participate in this controlled experiment?


   Funny thing is my children LOVE warm, fresh bread, and would not give two cents for all my pondering. Just give them some softened butter and a jar of homemade jam and they could care less!


                                                                         Audra


 

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

I'm sorry if my comments were not clear in their conclusions.


I am not recommending either course of action in any general sense.


If your bread seems to suffer from issues with reduced height (as compared to using just water) or its crumb seems too coarse, you would want to consider either scalding fresh milk or paying the expense of getting high-heat dried milk from a source like King Arthur's catalogue.


But scalding is a pain, and I think high-heat dried milk is going to be expensive to get from a specialty supplier like King Arthur, so, if you're happy with your bread, just keep doing what makes you happy.  As the folks at Cooks Illustrated confirmed, there is a difference in the results, but whether it's an important difference is a personal decision, I think, for any home baker.

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

Keeping in mind that I'm not telling anybody to go out and get high heat dried milk, I did Google the designation and I found a few sources for anybody who wants to play with it.  This one seemed to be affordable at $3.60 for a pound (I'm sure shipping is added).  King Arthur's is $8.50 per pound plus shipping.


http://www.butcher-packer.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=316

halfcaperfarm's picture
halfcaperfarm

Hi all,


I'm new here, but just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.  We use raw goat's milk instead of water in our bread and it turns out just fine without scalding - we just warm it up.  I did notice that when the girls weren't producing enough milk and we used water in the bread, that the crumb was coarser and spongier - not nearly as nice!

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

BTW, I just followed Steve's link to his blog page, and the breads pictured there are stunning.  Y'all should check it out.


--Dan DiMuzio

SteveB's picture
SteveB

Dan, denaturation typically refers to the disruption of the tertiary structure of a protein.  I don't see how we can go wrong by your suggestion of using the term "deactivated" instead.


Many thanks for your generous words concerning my blog.


SteveB


http://www.breadcetera.com


   

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

Hi Steve,


Sounds like you're the person to help clear this up for me. I am unclear about which form, oxidized or reduced glutathione relaxes and which strengthens gluten. It sounds like you're saying oxidized glutathione results in better cross-linking for a stronger gluten network, and reduced glutathione interferes with cross-linking for a more relaxed dough? Am I correct in assuming that deactivated yeast provides the reduced form? It was the recent discussion on the Bakers Bonus thread, coupled with statements made about glutathione by Michael Gaenzle and Shirley Corriher that had me thinking about this, but unfortunately, no where is it stated clearly which form goes with which effect. If you can clear that up, I'd be grateful :-)


Here's what Michael Gaenzle wrote in Carbohydrate, peptide and lipid metabolism of lactic acid bacteria in sourdough, Food Microbiology 24 (2007) 128-138:



The reduction of oxidized glutathione (GSSG) to reduced glutathione (GSH) by glutathione dehydrogenase could be linked to increased acetate production by L. sanfranciscensis (Vermeulen et al., 2006a; Fig. 1B). GSSG, GSH and protein-bound glutathione are present in micromolar levels in wheat dough and play an important role in the oxidative cross-linking of gluten proteins (Grosch and Wieser, 1999). Accordingly, the reduction of glutathione has a profound impact on gluten cross-linking. L. sanfranciscensis increased the concentration of low molecular weight thiol compounds in wheat dough as well as the free thiol groups in gluten proteins (Vermeulen et al., 2006a). Wheat flours also harbour glutathione dehydrogenase activity; however, the cofactor availability in wheat dough favours glutathione oxidation over glutathione reduction (Grosch and Wieser, 1999). In contrast, bacterial hexose metabolism via the pentose phosphate pathway [heterofermentation] provides an ample supply of reduced cofactors that shilfts the equilibrium towards the formation of reduced glutathione (Vermeulen et al., 2006a). L. sakei and L. perones, which metabolize hexoses via the Emden-Meyerhoff pathway [homofermentation], do not exhitit glutathione dehydrogenase activity and exert opposite effects on thiol-disulfide interchange reaction in wheat sourdoughs when compared to L. sanfranciscensis (Vermeulen et al., 20061).



Note: In addtion to fructose, which I've talked about before as being the most abundant co-substrate in lean white doughs made without additives, oxidized glutathione is another co-substrate (electron accepter) that can facilitate acetic acid production. With the help of glutathione dehydrogenase, oxidized glutathione (GSSG) becomes reduced glutathione (GSH), and acetyl-phosphate becomes acetic acid.


Debra Wink

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

Sometimes just asking the question is all it takes to make the connection. Had GSSG and GSH been presented as GS-SG and GS-H, I would have seen that they were as much molecular structure as abbreviation. So if the sulfur on a glutathione is already linked to the sulfur of another glutathione, it is not free to bind with gluten, and gluten can rebind with itself, making it stronger. Did I at least get that right?


Many thanks,
dw

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

which can be condensed into one word: huh?????


At the risk of dumbing down this fascinating conversation, would it be possible to explain the GSSG, GSH...erm...stuff...in a way non-chemists can follow? It seems like something important is being said here. 


Sorry for the intrusion and thanks in advance!


FP

SteveB's picture
SteveB

Debra,


Exactly!  Reduced glutathione (GSH, notice the free sulfhydryl (aka, thiol) group?) can react with gluten's intramolecular disulfide bonds (or with a free sulfhydryl group of the gluten) leading to glutathione's binding to the gluten and disruption of the gluten's crosslinking, leading to a weaker dough.  If the glutathione is in its oxidized state (GSSG, notice the disulfide bond?), its sulfhydryl groups are tied up and unavailable to react with the disulfide crosslinking of the gluten molecule, leading to a stronger dough.


SteveB


http://www.breadcetera.com


 

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Forgive my ignorance, I don't mean to sound rude.  Please could you explain this in a language we can all understand? It sounds like there is something really important to be learned here...but am I the only person who has no clue what that is? If explaining the mechanics is too hard then could you perhaps distill this wisdom in the form of 'implications for bakers'.


Thanks!


--FP


 

suave's picture
suave

Basically what they are saying is that gluthathione is a compound chemically similar to the portions of gluten proteins responsible for binding and gluten formation.  Glutathione has two forms - active (GSH) and inactive (GSSG) - where it reacted with another glutathione.  In milk it is predominantly in active form due to an enzyme that keeps it that way.  Scalding denatures this enzyme and in time all gluthathione ends up in more stable inactive form and can't interfere with gluten formation.

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

Thanks for the brief interpretation -- my head was repeatedly hitting the monitor before you posted that, and I have no major medical insurance.


Mike, would you be willing to post a more in-depth explanation of the interaction between gluten-forming proteins and glutathione in laymen's terms?  Also -- maybe define active and inactive glutathione, oxidized vs. reduced glutathione, and why it is important to distinguish between them?  I think more of us can follow the science behind bread making when the terms are drawn mostly from everyday vocabulary.


No offense intended to Debra or Steve, who have been generous in expanding and better defining this conversation.  I'm sure that the collective decades of experience they have can't be reduced to a few paragraphs, but I'm hoping that someone can clarify the salient points for those of us challenged by hexose and cross-linking.


Wishing you all the best in glutathione dehydrogenase activity,


--Dan DiMuzio

suave's picture
suave

Dan, my hope is that at some point we'll be able to make this conversation into a chapter in TFL handbook

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

My fault---sometimes in my excitement, I start speaking in tongues ;-)  I was just thrilled to find someone who understood the difference between oxidized and reduced glutathione. (Thank you Steve!) But, I really wasn't trying to leave anyone out, I was trying first to understand it myself. I find that's usually best before trying to explain something to others. Then I had one of those pop-myself-on-the-forehead "Why-didn't-I-see-that!" moments when I finally got that oxidized glutathione is actually 2 glutathiones joined (at thier thiol site) by a disulfide bond. That was the missing piece of the puzzle for me.


In CookWise, Shirley Corriher talks about gluten formation and dough oxidizers and improvers. If you don't have it, look on page 56 next time you're in a bookstore, to see a simple diagram of what happens to gluten when something like GSH "blocks" the cross-linking (disulfide bonds, meaning one sulfur of a thiol group grabbing onto another) between gluten molecules. The best analogy I can think of is that the disulfide bonds are like two magnets stuck together. You can pull them apart (what happens when you stretch the gluten coils in kneading) and when they return or get in close proximity to another, they grab ahold of each other again. But if an outsider, such as GSH forms a disulfide bond with the gluten, then that disrupts the cross-linking within the gluten network.



When gluten-forming proteins are stretched out, the sulfur of a neighboring protein is not the only thing to which a protein's sulfur can link. In freshly milled flour, there are villainous little things called thiol groups. These little fellows are all over the place in the new flour, both on the proteins themselves and on other molecules in the flour. These thiol groups hook onto a sulfur when it is pulled loose from another sulfur. Now that there is this outsider, the thiol group, hooked onto each sulfur, the two sulfurs cannot pull back together. There goes your elasticity.


Oxidizers like iodate of calcium or potassium or potassium bromate are added to flour not to bleach but to oxidize these villainous little sulfur groups in freshly milled flour. Oxidizing these little rascals (S-H groups permits better cross-linking of the gluten and gives dough better air-holding ability. The miller can add these oxidants for better gluten formation. Frequently, commercial bakers add them as a dough conditioner mix.



In my google search, I found this page, which shows the chemical structures of the molecules in question:


Click here: Glutathione: reduced glutathione : oxidized glutathione


dw

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Thanks Debra.


I'm going to read and re-read that. I think I'm starting to understand. GSH = weak dough....am I right? So any GSH from milk or milk powder will weaken the dough as it inteferes with the gluten network as it hooks on to available sulfurs (thiol groups?). 


I got a bit lost with the Gaenzle co-substrate quote though....


Cheers,


FP


 


 

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

I don't know enough about milk to say what's going on there. So far in this thread it's been suggested that scalding milk a) denatures GSH, b) oxidizes GSH, or c) destroys an enzyme which protects GSH from oxidation, thereby allowing it to become oxidized. I really have no idea which is correct, but the bottom line:


Reduced glutathione (GSH) interferes in the gluten network by latching onto the thiol groups of gluten, and blocking them from cross-linking with each other to form a strong mesh.


Don't get too bogged down in the Gaenzle quote. It ties in with the lactic acid fermentation article that I posted, in that oxidized glutathione (GSSG) is one of the co-substrates which increase acetic acid production in sourdough. Since heterofermentation turns a GSSG into (2)GSH, I think he's saying that heterofermentation contributes to greater extensibility and/or slack dough. However, homofermentation does not have the same effect, and substances in the flour itself, seem to support oxidation of glutathione (in the mixing stage is my guess?) which improves strength and elasticity.


-dw

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   I did love the taste and texture of this bread. I will definitely make it again. I will try not to over proof. The recipe said to rise till it gets to the top of the pan. Well it got to the top in about 45 minutes, which I had expected it to be slightly longer. And then I had to let the oven preheat.It had more than doubled at that point.


  I may try the milk powder, and the scald method just to compare notes. I don't for see this bread as being hard to get rid of at our house. Eviltigerlily, thanks for the insight on the Jewish part. I am not, and was thoroughly thrown off by it. I wonder what they did use a century ago instead of the powder, or did they just not eat this during certain religious holidays. You'll have to help me on this.


   Phil, thank you for putting the book into my head and getting me to order it. I love it. I have read it all the way thru almost and only had it a few days.


   Dan, I would like to try a side by side on the scalded v. non just like they did in C. I.  That is such a great magazine.


  Sylvia, thank you and great to hear your in the house!


   emj, thanks for all that info, and to think that when I ask the question this morning, I had no idea I would learn all this! Wow! You guys are the best.


                                                              Audra

eviltigerlily's picture
eviltigerlily

I suppose they would just make sure not to eat anything made with milk dough together with meat products. Many traditional recipies use other enrichments in bread instead of milk and butter. That's why Challa is made with eggs and oil, so it can be eaten with the main meal (which would typically contain meat dishes).

ques2008's picture
ques2008

glad you started this discussion.  i too was wondering about why some recipes specify milk powder versus actual milk.


folks, can you give me some brands of powdered milk - i know carnation is one.  i live in canada and i'm not sure what brands are sold here.


thanks.

ejm's picture
ejm

We buy "no name" powdered skim milk from NoFrills (Loblaws). I have no idea if it is the same kind of powdered milk that is called for in various recipes. But I do know that it works just fine. (Next time I bake bread that has milk in it, I'll try scalding the reconstituted milk to see if it makes any difference to the rise and/or texture of the bread.)


Thanks, Audra, for introducing the subject! This has been fascinating.


-Elizabeth

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   I had no idea when it came up that there would be so much information over a seemingly simple question. I am a big Alton Brown fan ( I need to know why to understand things ) I can't just accept that something is. I probably drive my husband nuts! This one did sneak up on me though. Had someone just told me the Jewish kosher issue, I would have been satisfied and never looked back. But the scalding angle has been fascinating to say the least. Same ingredients, just changing the heat of one item and it changes the whole outcome. Cool huh?


                                               Audra 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Audra,


Your Milk Bread looks wonderful! Your posts are starting to look very professional:>)


If you have a chance, could you post the recipe for this?


I'm also wondering how Bakers Buttermilk powder compares to regular dry milk. I use buttermilk liquid in a direct swap for milk or water and it seems to give me a nice rise and soft crumb.


Nice thread Audra, thank you.


Eric

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   This is from Secrets of a Jewish Baker, and Phyl's photo inspired me to get the book and strike off! I'll try to post a Linc to his post http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11879/weekend-bake-courtesy-george-greenstein .


   There were several different processes, but the one I used was the sponge method. Also the big issue, I used whole milk instead of the water and powder.


   Milk Bread, Sponge Method ( page 37 )


 Sponge: 2 cups warm water


             2 pkg.s active dry yeast   (1 1/2 Tbsp.)


              3 cups A P flour


 


Dough: 4 tsp. sugar                               2 Tbsp. unsalted butter, softened


           2/3 cup skim milk powder            2 - 3 cups A P flour


           2 tsp. salt                                  water or melted butter for brushing loaves


 


Sponge: In a large bowl, add warm water and yeast and allow to stand for about 5 minutes. Add the flour and mix until smooth. Cover and let rest until doubled in volume, about 30-45 minutes.


Dough:  Stir down the sponge. Add the sugar, butter, milk powder,  2 cups of the flour and the salt. Stir until the dough comes away from the sides of the bowl. If it is too sticky add the remaining four 1/4 cup at a time as necessary.


  Turn out onto a lightly floured surface and knead, turn, and fold until dough is smooth and bouncy ( about 8 min ) . Cover and allow to rest for 10 minutes.


   Shape into 2 loaves, and place them seam side down in two greased loaf pans ( I used parchment instead) . Place, covered, in a warm place till dough reaches the top of the pan. Slash down the center, and brush with your choice of either the water or butter.


Bake: Preheat the oven to 375. Bake with steam on the middle shelf of the oven till lightly brown ( 35 to 45 minutes) . If you want a crustier crust, remove the bread from the pan for the last 5 minutes of the bake. Brush again with melted butter and let cool on a wire rack.


    Makes 2 loaves.


note to myself: 1# the rise in the pan came very quickly ( about 45 minutes) Have that oven ready to go!  


     2# By dividing the dough into weighed equal portions and shaping them into little "buns" and lining them in the pan ( like hot dog buns are in a bag in the store) ((single row only, didn't double stack )) you can simply pull off a section while they are hot from the oven without having to slice. Nice for those of us who love warm from the oven bread, and it doesn't upset those who insist that it must cool on a rack before slicing. 


 

Marni's picture
Marni

There's  always something new to learn on this site!  Thank you Audra for asking a question I also wondered about.  I bake my breads that call for milk with rice milk- that should really throw off the "how it rises" comparisons.  As was said here before, my family loves the result and that's what matters.  Thank you also for sharing the recipe, I might compare how a rice milk version compares visually with your dairy version.  Yours looks great - tender looking crumb, a definite kid pleaser!


Marni

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   When I joined I could make very nice rolls, and had a desire for more, I just didn't know how far that road would take me. At that time I thought if I could make a decent french bread along with the rolls I'd be satisfied, maybe a challah to show off with ( that was the search that landed me here) . But you get so inspired with the photo's and recipes everyone post. It's not a snob site. No question is ridiculed. There is always someone here to help. You feel at home the minute you enter the virtual door. And home is a great place to be.

Marni's picture
Marni

This is a wonderful site!  I get inspired here all the time, I just have to find the time to try everything.  (and get my kids to eat them!)


Since challah started you here, I wanted to share what I think is the best challah recipe around.  Eric (ehanner) posted it here and I have made it two or three times.  I can't find the link for some reason, but I copied to my email, so if you'd like it, just send me a message and I'll get it to you.


Marni


 

ejm's picture
ejm

Marni, I was intrigued and did search... here is Ehanner's Challah recipe. (At least, I'm pretty sure that's the one.)


Wow, lots of egg yolks! What do you do with the whites?


-Elizabeth


audra36274's picture
audra36274

   a cake takes 12 egg whites. I love to make Angel Food Cake. It never even gets a proper cut slice. We just go by and pull out plugs and keep walking, happily munching. If you've never made one, they are much better than the store versions.


   So Eric's challah and cake would be a good ( eggy ) friendship.


                                                      Audra

xaipete's picture
xaipete

And have done that exactly: one challah plus one angel food cake (we did slice our those).


--Pamela

audra36274's picture
audra36274

   but bread and cake......well now that's a whole 'nother ballgame!


                                                           Audra 

ques2008's picture
ques2008

well said, audra. i agree 100%.  this is not a snob site.  it's actually a very democratic platform, like open source technologies.  duh...what a comparison.

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

I'm resuscitating an old thread, I know, but I have a query that is sort of the reciprocal of one that was addressed above.


I have a SD bread recipe that calls for the addition of milk, but I want to use milk powder instead. I guess I need to substitute water equal to the quantity of milk in the recipe, but how do I then calculate how much milk powder to use? I'm just a little concerned that if I get it wrong the hydration of the dough will be skewed and that this might have an adverse effect on the finished loaf.


Would I reduce the substituted water a little to offset the weight of the milk powder, so that their combined weight equals that of the liquid milk in the original recipe?


I'm guessing I would, but that still leaves me with the dilemma of calculating an appropriate quantity of milk powder to use. I'm sure this is a dumb question, but I can't get my head around the required calculations! Can anyone help, pls?


Cheers
Ross

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

For American NFDM(non fat dry milk), it's 1 part nfdm to 9 parts water.


So if I want to make 10 oz of milk, I would use 1 oz nfdm and 9 oz water.


If I want an 8 oz cup of milk, put .8 oz nfdm in container and add 7.2 oz water.


etc, etc...

greydoodles's picture
greydoodles

Use 1/3 cup powder with water to make 1 cup milk. Being too lazy to determine the exact amount of water needed, I use 3/4+ cup. No problems so far, but I guess I will check the exact amounts needed, both volume and weight, the next time I bake. It will take a minute out of my life to do so. *lol*

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Just wondering, mrfrost, is there a difference that you know of for making the calculation with full fat milk powder?


greydoodles,


On no account would I want to be responsible for costing you that minute! There's a lot you can do with that time! Use it well. :)


Cheers
Ross

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

For Nestle Nido whole milk powder, the ratio is 1.05 oz powder to 8 fl oz water. This works out to a milk that is about 88% water, 12% milk powder.


So if you want to make an 8 oz cup of milk:


8 oz x 12% = .96 oz powder


.96 oz powder + 7.04 oz water = 8 oz milk. Of course you could just round to 1 oz powder + 7 oz water.


Good luck.

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

I used the 12% calculation in my current dough. The only thing is, you end up with the same weight of 'milk' as in the liquid state, but less actual liquid. The dough was too dry, so I added water by feel until I thought it was right, weighing as I added, and interestingly, it came together when I had increased the water content to about the weight of liquid that would have been in the recipe if I used milk in liquid form! This is the first time I have done this bread, though, so it might be that it would have seemed under-hydrated anyway with the flours I'm using. Curious to see how the finished bread turns out...


Cheers
R

diah's picture
diah

Audra i use full cream milk and scald it for my monkey bread. That's the name of the bread I got from "Peripulus Mini cookbooks". The bread rise well and it taste good. My son says it taste like cheese bread. But there is no cheese added. I make it in the shape of sandwhich loaf. It looks exactly like your loaf as in the picture. In fact I like the taste of it too. I have been baking this monkey bread for severaly time cause my kids love the taste. I will also try to bake other bread. I would like to try baking baguettes. But still have no confident.

ejm's picture
ejm

Generally there is a legend on the milk powder package (or sign over the milk powder bin at the bulk store) saying how much milk powder to use to make 1 cup of milk.


The skim milk powder we usually use is 1/3 cup (80ml) powder for 1 cup (250ml/ 250gm) water. (Sorry, no idea what the weight of milk powder is.)


Once it is constituted, whether it is full fat or low fat, milk should weigh pretty much the same as water. But if you really want to weigh everything carefully for your percentages, you could whisk the amount of powder into water and then add that to your bread.


Hope that makes sense.


-Elizabeth


 

rossnroller's picture
rossnroller

Thanks, Elizabeth...I had reached the same conclusions, and applied them in the bread. Worked out well. Very well, actually.  As stated above, I had to adjust the hydration up on the original recipe, but I suspect this was more about the flours I was using (and the fact that my dough composition deviated quite a bit from the source recipe) than about using dried milk instead of milk in liquid form.


Will do a separate post on this interesting and very yummy bread as soon as I have time.


Cheers and thanks all for your help re the dried milk issue.

Antilope's picture
Antilope

to inactivate the enzyme glutathione, that range from heating the milk to 180-F, 185-F, 190-F or all the way to 198-F.

Times to hold at the scalding temperatures range from just "briefly", or holding it there for from 10 to 30-minutes.

Is there some authoritative source that states a temperature and a time for scalding milk to assure that glutathione is inactivated for baking purposes?