The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Dough too slack to shape

five by five's picture
five by five

Dough too slack to shape

So i've recently jumped both feet in to sourdough baking, but sadly with little success. I succesfully made a starter with equal weights water and rye flour, feeding it twice a day until it doubled and then converting it to a stiff (50% hydration) breadflour starter.

I then broke out RLB's bread bible and tried her recipe for basic sourdough. My starter and subsequent dough doubles within all the times she recommends, but when I get the dough out to shape it into a boule for the final proof it is icnredibly slack. To the point where I cannot handle it without it sticking to my hands and anything else it comes in contact with.

I looked around here a bit and immediately thought I might be letting the dough sit for too long, but as I said, my doubling times are all well within RBL's estimates. I also thought I might not be developing the gluten enough, but after kneading the dough is plenty elastic. Could it be the heat? I'm letting it rise at temperatures around 81 degrees, is the heat negatively affecting it? The dough percentage is flour 100%, water 68%, starter 30%, salt 2%. So with that hydration I guess it's not supposed to be too stiff, but this is ridiculous.

Any advice here is highly appreciated it as I'm at my wit's end after making my third straight loaf that just spreads out once I'm finally able to wrestle it into a ball. I tried to proof it in a bowl with a floured towel the last time, and the stuck to the towel!

 

LindyD's picture
LindyD

I don't have the book so don't know the recipe, but are you measuring by volume or by weight?  What type flour are you using?  Bread flour?  AP?  Rye?

Are you marking your container with a piece of tape to measure the rise?  I find that's more accurate than going by time since if you look at the tape mark noting the height of the dough when you put it in the bowl, you will know for certain when it has doubled.

BTW, try a light spray of oil in your proofing bowl instead of a towel. The dough won't stick.

five by five's picture
five by five

Great questions and suggestions! I'm measuring by weight and using KA bread flour. Thoughts?

I've been letting it rise in a  measuring cup, pressing down a bit to get a good measure. I find this helps me tell when it doubles. It's doubling in about 5 hours (RLB says it should take 4 to 5).

I actually am proofing a loaf in a bowl right now with a spray of oil, hopefully that will work! I again had trouble even shaping a boule though b/c of the slackness of the dough.

Oh, by the way for those who don't know the recipe, i'm expanding about 25g of my mother starter to 200g over the course of 2 feedings, and using 150g in the dough with the percentages I listed above. I think this should prevent the starter from being "overripe" but perhaps not?

davidm's picture
davidm

I'm trying to get a picture of what's happening, five.

Are you saying the dough is more or less manageable and well developed right after kneading, but then turns to jelly after the bulk fermentation? Is it hyper-sticky and unshapeable before the bulk rise, or only after?

I don't have the book either, but I've made Hamelman's basic sourdough several times now, and Reinhart's too, and they are real similar to the percentages you give.

Hamelman's is 65% overall and Reinhart's is close to that. 68% will be a little wetter, sure, but should not be crazy wetter. My sourdoughs are a little stickier and slacker after the bulk rise than before, certainly, but it's not like a whole different world or anything. I do need a little flour on the bench so I can let go of them, and so they'll let go of me. I proof on parchment, and they do flatten out quite a bit, but jump up pretty strongly in the oven.

Interesting

five by five's picture
five by five

David,

  That's right, it is quite well developed after kneading, I would say it's tacky at best, but not too sticky. After the bulk rise it is a completely different animal. I try to shape it and it is nearly impossible. I also get very little rise during my final proof, if that tells you anything.

LeadDog's picture
LeadDog

I'm going to take a wild guess that the dough has developed to much acid in it and when this happens the gluten is weakened.  It doesn't seem like you are waiting long enough for this to happen but from the other comments above there isn't anything else I can think of that will make the dough go slack like you describe.  Just an idea to think about.

five by five's picture
five by five

From this forum and some other searching I'm starting to lean towards that same conclusion LeadDog. I guess the questions is...how do I avoid this? Should I be letting the starter and dough rise at a lower temperature perhaps?

proth5's picture
proth5

I had the same problem with my first few batches of sourdough.  Some things that I considered to get the process stabilized:

Lower the percentage of the flour that is pre-fermented.  This means using less of your starter in proportion to the bread.  With the numbers you have given, you are pre-fermenting 33% of your flour.  (100g of flour in starter/300g total  flour) This is not excessive by any means, but it could be reduced.

Make sure that the starter that you are using in the bread is properly mature-that is, well risen and full of bubbles - but not over mature - that is, collapsed with a crater in the middle

You may wish to lower your fermentation temperature.  Five hours at 81F after a couple hours and folds seems a little excessive to me.  My breads (and I always caution my starter, my hands, my altitude, my baking style) get no more than 4 hours total of bulk ferment at a somewhat lower temperature.

It is very important that the starter you use in the bread is at proper maturity, this is what made the biggest difference for me.

Also, young starters do take a while to become stable, even though they are active.  Time may be your friend.

Hope this helps.

five by five's picture
five by five

I will definitely try your suggestions on the next loaf. I'm hopeful that one of them will be the one to work! The bread by the way, is still quite tasty (a bit too sour, maybe b/c of the acidity), and has a decent enough crumb. It's just a bit dense and misshapen from the trouble I have getting it into a loaf.

 

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

I've had this problem in the past, albeit temporarily. Things got better initially, and were pretty stable over the last 6 months or so. However just in the last few weeks things have started to go very wrong. My starters are behaving somewhat erratically.

The white starter was the first to go...and as yet, no attempt to rescue it has proven successful. My WW starter has lost most of its aroma/'character'. Last to be hit was my rye which, just yesterday, got a case of the 'smelly bacteria'...which a mild vinegar addition has yet to cure.

To clarify - all of the starters are very active and bubbly, but the dough I'm making from them are exhibiting exactly the sort of problems with strength as fivebyfive mentions.

To give an example: a simple 'direct' pain au levain during bulk fermentation at 70F with 25% prefermented flour loses almost all strength within 2 to 3 hours. No amount of shaping/bench resting is able to salvage bake-able/proofable bread. 

I have spent the last week testing every factor I can think of, from water, flour and salt through to starter hydration, feed ratio, temperature and mixing technique. On a good weekend, I can get through about 6 or 7 bread flops. Nothing, it would seem, can stop my starters from destroying gluten.

Frankly I'm at the stage where it's probably best to scrap my starters and begin again which seems a real shame. I'm particularly reluctant to do so, since I have still not identified the problem - there's no telling when or how the problem might reoccur. Until then, I'm unable to bake bread.

 

five by five's picture
five by five

So sorry to hear about your struggles, but comforted that I'm not the only one! I'm hoping I won't have to start all over again with a new starter as the bread I'm making right now has a good flavor, the dough just won't behave. Also I would have liked my first starter to work.

Hope yours improves foolishpoolish, hope mine does as well!

possum-liz's picture
possum-liz

I Have a similar problem only with my lean plain white sourdoughs and yeasted breads.  My problem is caused by super soft water. There's a thread somewhere on the site about the problem, I haven't figured out how to do a link yet.

Liz

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

For comparison, I made a (commercial) yeasted dough today. I used a stiff preferment and the total fermentation time was close to 5 hours.

Absolutely no problems with dough strength. Shaping and handling was an absolute pleasure.

Sooooo...it would seem that for me at least, the problem is with something in the starter. Seems like new starter is the way to go.

FP

 

five by five's picture
five by five

My yeasted breads come out just fine, it just with the starter that i'm having trouble.

pattycakes's picture
pattycakes

I didn't read through all the comments, but I wanted to offer this advice:

When I first started working with slack doughs, I found these very helpful.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4365/kneading-slack-dough-hand

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3052252168119120428&pr=goog-sl

 

It may be that the dough is the wrong hydration for what you're doing, but if you try these methods, you may find that it works fine. I love slack dough bread, but it takes some getting used to!

 

 

 

five by five's picture
five by five

I actually am folding my dough twice during the early part of the bulk fermentation. The water on the hands trick is also something i've picked up here and is quite helpful. I will definitely use these in the future.

However, my real problem is the fact that the dough is really not slack or sticky prior to bulk fermentation. It's a bit wetter than my usual doughs perhaps but not difficult to manage. After the rise though it's just a monster to deal with, sticks to everything regardless of the amount of flour or oil I try to use and won't hold a shape to save itself. I would say something is definitely going wrong during this stage, although the resultant bread is quite tasty, if a bit dense.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I didn't follow up on it yet but she had a very good writeup on the role enzymes play and sometimes they run amuk and can cause all manner of problems with the stretchiness of the gluten.

Another thread I was going to followup with was the role of vitamin C with whole wheat. (I've had some very frustrating coneection problems the last week-should be resolved)

Try doing a search on enzymes and vitamin C.

five by five's picture
five by five

If you track it down. I found some threads on enzymes, but to be honest it went a bit over my head.

five by five's picture
five by five

I was going to wait until I actually tasted the bread before I posted, but I can't help myself. I just want to thank everyone on here, especially davo and proth. Since I first posted I've been feeding my starter by keeping only about half as much of the mother starter as I had before. I figured if the acidity was high this might help correct it. Yesterday I started my bread making cycle. When I added the starter to knead in I was pleasantly surprised that it was much less sticky than in the past (I use a stiff starter). I reduced the flour from starter to 33% to 30% and folded it 4 times every during the first two hours of bulk fermentation rather than 2. I let it rise at a much lower temperature this time, 68ish and for only 4 hours total. I shaped it and it was easy to handle and not at all slack. I let it proof for about an hour and then refrigerated it overnight. I took it out this morning and popped it in the oven after I let it come to room temperature. I was a bit concerned as it had not come close to doubling, but I followed proth's advice and just put it in the oven. It turned out that it had massive oven spring and nearly doubled in the first ten minutes. It's cooling now but I was so excited that it rose well and the dough was manageable that I thought I'd post. I'll let you all know how it tastes. But in the meantime a million thanks to all the posters who answered my questions on this thread. I was about to give up on sourdough but now I'm hooked again. Thank you all.