Lesson: Squeeze more sour from your sourdough

Submitted by JMonkey on July 2, 2006 - 9:43pm

Lesson: Squeeze more sour from your sourdough

I am far from a sourdough expert. I’ve only been baking sourdough since February, and I still have a lot to learn about shaping, scoring and proofing to perfection.

However, there is one thing I have learned well: how to squeeze more flavor out of my naturally sweet starter. Here's the basic tips.

1) Keep the starter stiff
2) Spike your white starter with whole rye
3) Use starter that is well-fed
4) Keep the dough cool
5) Extend the rise by degassing
6) Proof the shaped loaves overnight in the fridge

Photos and elaboration follow.

It’s a common lament that I see on bread baking forums – Why isn’t my sourdough sour?

Personally, I blame Watertown. My evidence? I gave some of my starter to a friend who lives six miles away in Lexington. Within 6 weeks, she was making sour tasting sourdough. Her local yeastie beasties are clearly more sour than mine.

I don’t know what it is about the microflora that live in the little hollow between the hills that I occupy in Watertown, Mass., but treated traditionally, my white starter and my whole wheat starter pack as much sour taste as a loaf of Wonder Bread. That’s not to say that the loaves don’t taste nice. They do. They’re wheaty with a touch of a buttery aftertaste.

But they don’t taste sour, which is how I think sourdough ought to taste.

Anyway, I’ve finally figured out how to get the tangy loaves I love. If you’re facing the same sweet trouble as me, perhaps some (or all) of these tips will help.

1) Keep your starter stiff:

Traditionally, sourdough starter is kept as a batter. The most common consistency is to have equal weights of water and flour, also known as 100% hydration because the water weight is equal to 100% of the flour weight. That’s roughly 1 scant cup of flour to about ½ cup of water. Jeffrey Hammelman keeps his at 125%, and quite a few folks keep theirs at 200% (1 cup water to 1 cup flour).

I keep my sourdough starter at 50% hydration, meaning that for every 2 units of flour weight, I add 1 unit of water.

Barney Barm, my white starter is on the left; Arthur the whole wheat starter on the right. The bran and germ in whole wheat absorb a lot of water, so that starter is even stiffer than the white.

There are two basic types of bacteria that flourish in a sourdough starter. One produces lactic acid, which gives the bread a smooth taste, sort of like yogurt. It does best in wet, warm environment. The other makes acetic acid, the acid that gives bread its sharp tang. These bacteria prefer a drier, cooler environment.

(Or so I've read, anyway. I ain't no biochemist; I just know what they print in them books.)

A hydration of 50% is pretty stiff, especially for a whole-wheat starter. You really have to knead strongly to convince the starter to incorporate all the flour.

For example, here's my white starter after I've done my best to mix it up in the bucket. Time to knead a bit.

Here's what it looks like after kneading.

And here's what it looks like 5 hours later once it's ripe.

Conversion from 100% to 50% isn't hard to do if you've got a kitchen scale.

Take 2 ounces of your 100% starter. Then add 5 ounces of flour and 2 ounces of water. This should give you 9 ounces of starter. Leave it overnight, and it should be ripened in the morning.

From there on out when you feed it, add 1 unit of water for every 2 units of flour. I'd recommend feeding it 2 or 3 more times before using it, though, so that the yeast and bacteria can acclimate to the new environment.

There are additional advantages to a stiff starter beyond producing a more sour bread.

First, a stiff starter is easier to transport. Just throw a hunk into a bag, and you’re done.

Supposedly, the stiff stuff keeps longer than the batters. You can leave stiff starter in the fridge for months, or so I hear, and it can still be revived. Never tried it myself, though, so don't take my word for it.

Finally, the math for feeding is easy at 50% hydration, much easier than 60% or 65%. Just feed your starter in multiples of threes. For exmaple, if I’ve got 3 ounces of starter and I need to feed it, I'll probably triple it in size. To get six additional ounces for food, I just add 4 ounces flour and 2 ounces water. Piece of cake.

Converting recipes isn’t hard either. First, figure out the total water weight and total flour weight in the original recipe, including what's in the starter. If the recipe calls for a 100% hydration starter, then half of the starter is flour and the other half is water. Divide it accordingly to get the total flour and total water weights in the final dough.

Now, add the total water and total flour together. Take that figure and multiply by 0.30. This will tell you how much stiff starter you’ll need.

Last, subtract the amount of water in the stiff starter from the total water in the final dough, and the amount of flour in the stiff starter from the total flour in the final dough. The results tell you how much flour and water to add to the starter to get the final dough. Everything else remains the same.

2) Spike your white starter with whole rye flour:

It doesn’t take much. Currently, my white starter is about 10-15% whole rye. Basically, for every 3 ounces of white flour that I feed the starter, I replace ½ ounce with whole rye. That small portion of rye makes a big difference in flavor. Rye is to sourdough microflora as spinach is to Popeye. It’s super-food that’s easily digestible and nutrient rich. That’s why so many recipes for getting a starter going from scratch suggest you start with whole rye.

Here I am, about to add rye to "Barney Barm," my white starter. I haven’t added rye to my whole-wheat starter, though. It hasn’t needed it – there’s more than enough nutrients in the whole wheat to keep the starter party going strong.

3) Use starter that is well fed: Early in my search to sour my sourdough, I’d read that, if you leave a starter unfed and on the counter for a few days before baking, it will make your bread more sour.

I’ve found that’s not the case. The starter gets more sour, but the bread doesn’t taste very sour at all.

The better course is to take your starter out of the fridge at least a couple of days before you use it, and then feed it two or three times before you make the final dough. Healthy microflora make a more flavorful bread.

4) Keep the dough cool:

When I first started out, I was following recipes that called for the dough to be at 79 degrees, and I’d often put it in a fairly warm place to rise. Warmth kills sour taste. Nowadays, I add water that’s room temperature, not warmed, and aim for a much cooler rise, no higher than 75 degrees and often as low as 64.

The cellar is your friend.

5) Extend the rise by degassing:

When I make whole wheat sourdough, I usually let the dough rise until it has doubled and then degass it by folding until it rises a second time. Along with cool dough, this means the bulk fermentation usually lasts 5-6 hours.

When I’m making pain au levain or some other white flour sourdough, I usually have the dough very wet, so it needs more than one fold to give it the strength it needs. In this case, I fold once at 90 minutes and then again after another 90 minutes. Usually, the full bulk rise lasts about 5 hours.

Here's a sequence showing how I fold my whole-wheat sourdough.

First, turn the risen dough out on a lightly floured surface (heavily floured if your dough is very wet).

Stretch it to about twice its length.

Gently degass one-third of the dough, fold it over the middle, and degass the middle section to seal.

Do the same for the remaining side. Take the folded dough, turn it one-quarter, and fold once more before returning to the bowl or bucket to rise again.

6) Proof the shaped loaves overnight in the fridge:

This final touch really brings out the flavor. So much so that, if you’ve incorporated all the other suggestions, proofing overnight might make your bread a bit too sour for your taste. My wife and I like it assertively sour, however, so this step is a must.

Normally, I’d suggest proofing your loaves on the top shelf where it’s warmest, so as not to kill off any yeast, but I find that if I put my loaves in the top, they’re ready in about 4-6 hours, at which time I’m usually sound asleep. So I started putting them in the bottom, and had better luck.

I hope this helps those of you who dread pulling another beautiful loaf from the oven, only to find it looks better than it tastes. Best of luck!

Filed under:

Submitted by rmk129 on July 3, 2006 - 9:22am.

Great lesson!

Hi JMonkey,
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post the above sourdough lesson! I found it extremely informative with lots of great tips and photos...I have read your suggestions for using a stiff starter many times on this site, but I couldn't really grasp exactly how to go about it until now. Thanks for sharing your experiences with us :)

Submitted by Joe Fisher on July 3, 2006 - 12:33pm.

Nice job JMonkey!

To add a bit of my own experience:

I've found that even if you keep a fairly wet starter - mine's about a poolish - the overnight ferment will still give you a great sour tang. I feed my starter the night before, let it bubble about 4 hours, then refrigerate it overnight. Once I make the dough, if I want a really sour bread, I'll refrigerate it overnight again.

It does make a noticeable difference.

-Joe

Submitted by JMonkey on July 4, 2006 - 7:19am.

Wet starter

I used to keep a wet starter for my white flour -- 200%, so it was really wet. But it didn't make my bread very sour. I wonder if I spiked the 200% with rye what it would do? And I wonder what it might do to my whole wheat starter?

Hmmmmmm. I'm going to have to experiment next week .... Thanks Joe!

Submitted by Mini Oven on July 6, 2006 - 2:41am.

Wheat or Rye or Oat starters

I used to believe that any sourdough starter could raise a variety of other grains but I now believe each starter is specific to itself and it's pH. If you want a mixed starter, one for say wheat and rye, then combine two starters first, then feed with mixed flours. I also think the liquid that forms on top of the starter is the "sour" and should be used. I poured it off once and noticed a big reduction in sour taste. Mini Oven

Comments welcome on new forum topic under same subject. Thanks

Submitted by tony on January 7, 2007 - 6:08am.

flour for sourdough starter

This is an interesting discussion of ways to maintain a sourdough culture. I tried several methods when I began making sourdough bread. Different books make quite different recommendations -- and different preferments for different specific beads within the same book. All very puzzling to a beginner. So one day I asked the baker whose work I have been observing.

His reply was, "I'm not a good person to ask. I do everything the same way." He maintains his culture at 125% hydration, feeds it twice a day with half wheat and half rye flour, and uses a factor of eight. Sourdough culture is one eighth of the flour in a batch of bread, something like that. His culture is very lively with all that feeding and the warmth of the huge wood-fired oven in the bakery.

Whatever he said, I have had success with all kinds of wholegrain and white bread, including 100% whole rye bread, doing this:

My storage culture (what stays in a crock in the refrigerator) is 125% hydration whole rye sourdough -- though there are traces of the original whole wheat from the original wheat-based sourdough I began with.
Twenty four to thirty hours before I plan to mix dough I get the crock out of the refrigerator and add enough rye flour and water to make the amount of culture I'll need for the bread, four parts by weight of flour to five parts of cold tap water (we live in the country and have a good well).
The crock then stays on the kitchen counter till the next stage 12 hours later.
Which is making a leaven for the dough. I use various combinations of freshly milled whole wheat, spelt, and rye flours and germ added/retained wheat and King Arthur artisan wheat flours, all organic. While the culture is fermenting I will have mixed the flour for this particular bread. Each leaven contains one part culture and seven parts flour and water, using the flour I've just mixed. The leaven ferments for 12 to 16 hours in the bowl I'll use for the dough.
Using the baker's factor of eight, the leaven contains one eighth of the flour in the dough; the culture used to start the leaven contains one eighth of the flour in the leaven. So to mix the dough I add the requisite flour and water, and after some autolyse however much salt, seeds, nuts, raisins, or what have you.
Bread making proceeds from there through bulk fermentation, dividing and shaping, proofing, and baking.

To summarize, I have one kind of sourdough culture and then make a preferment for each bread using the flour for that particular recipe.

Submitted by mmorse757 on September 30, 2009 - 3:04pm.

Separate starters

In my (very limited) experience with sour dough, every thing I have read indicates that the bacteria (candida milleri, saccharomyces exiguus and lactobacillus sanfranciscensis) are the same, regardless of the flour used.

As for the the fluid on top, I also poured it off once and did not like the results. I stir it back in and use it.

Submitted by Mini Oven on January 4, 2010 - 1:46am.

I have since changed my mind

Thought I'd just mention that since this thread popped up. My starters don't have hooch anymore. I haven't seen hooch on my sourdough in years! Keep it fed and it will feed you!

This is the Topic that got me on to firmer starters and am I glad! Thank you again JMonkey!

Consider yourself bear hugged! :)

To add a generalization:

Although we tend to think of making and baking bread as building and creating something "magic," it is sometimes helpful to think of making dough as a degenerative process.

Once water is added to flour, the flour starts to autolyse and decompose, we add ingedients, change temperatures, speed up decomposition by adding more yeast and sourdough and then slow it down trying to bake the dough when the flavor is to our liking but hasn't lost all of its ability to still stretch and rise to bake into the foodstuff we call "Bread."

Flour starts out very alkaline and slides thru the pH scale until it is very acid. The closer we get to acid end of the scale the trickier it gets to control and still manage a decent loaf before its stucture breaks down too much. Fresh flour and water at one end of the scale, used up exhausted dough at the other end. Even then, we can use this broken down dough to further or speed up the fermenting (decaying) process in another batch of dough going up and down the scale until we're satisfied enough to shape and bake it.

Mini

Submitted by Floydm on July 3, 2006 - 1:43pm.

Great article

Yeah, very nice article, JMonkey. Would you mind if I featured it in one of the two main blocks on top of the front page?

Submitted by JMonkey on July 4, 2006 - 5:25am.

Floyd

Sure! I'd be tickled pink!

Submitted by Doug Waugh on July 4, 2006 - 5:32pm.

Thanks, JMonkey

I was delighted when StumbleUpon took me to your sourdough page. I baked with my Alaskan starter for ten years, with lots of fun, both hits and misses. I still use the starter, but only for pancakes and waffles. But after reading your suggestions, I'm inspired to get back into the kitchen and do some more dough play. My loaves, though everybody, including me, loved them, never achieved the sourness that I usually sought. Now perhaps, with your help.... I'll let you know.

Doug

Submitted by JMonkey on July 5, 2006 - 6:36am.

Alaskan sourdough

Great! Glad to hear it inspired you to go back to the bread-stuff. Can't wait to hear if it helps.

Submitted by JMonkey on July 5, 2006 - 9:33am.

Converting to a stiff starter

I realized that I didn't add anything about how to convert your 100% starter to 50%. Again, it's not hard to do if you've got a kitchen scale.

Take 2 ounces of your 100% starter. Then add 5 ounces of flour and 2 ounces of water. This should give you 9 ounces of starter. Leave it overnight, and it should be ripened in the morning.

(I've also added this to the lesson itself)

Submitted by wagner on July 24, 2006 - 6:10pm.

incorporating the stiff starter into the dough

hi J,

thanks for your blog, very informative indeed.

sorry to ask you a stupid question but once the stiff starter has "matured" and you are ready to bake a loaf, since is stiff, how do you incorporate it into the dough? , do you chop it and mix it in?.

i use a 100% rye starter, can I make a stiff version out of it too?

been baking for a couple of months so just a beginner.

cheers,

Submitted by JMonkey on July 25, 2006 - 6:54am.

Incorporating stiff starter

Basically, W, I just knead the bejeezus out of it.

Well, that's actually only for whole wheat sourdough, which I make most often. But really all I do is tear it up into about a dozen chunks, mix it up with a spoon and then proceed to kneading. It incorporates well just by kneading alone.

You can certainly make a stiff rye starter, though with rye, you probably won't need to do so. Rye is pretty much the perfect food for sourdough cultures, so your rye starter should be plenty sour. I keep my rye at 100%, myself.

Submitted by wagner on July 25, 2006 - 3:11pm.

thanks

got it now J, thank you.

have a nice1.

Submitted by Alice on November 12, 2006 - 1:06pm.

my first sourdough

Hi everyone, im new to the site and new to bread baking, i made my first sourdough loaf today, roughly following a recipe Floyd posted. Here it is in all its glory!

I used a mix of white bread flour, with 5 grain bread flour and a bit of rye thrown in for good measure. I let it bulk ferment for 3 and a 1/2 hours with 2 folds during that time. a quick knead and then left it to proof for about 45mins. I did slash it, made a bit of a pigs ear of it but it turned out ok.

My starter was quite liquid, so next time im going to follow your suggestions Jmonkey and see if i can change the flavour. Ive never eaten sourdough before, let alone baked it, so im not sure if it tasted as it should! Will try and increase the sour taste and see if im on the right track. It definitely had a nice tang to it. My dad liked it, hes my barometer when it comes to all things edible, so it cant be bad.

Im going to buy a bread book as a present to myself, probably going for The Bread Bakers Apprentice as seen some great comments about it on this site.

Alice x

Submitted by Teresa_in_nc on February 19, 2007 - 4:36pm.

Thanks, JMonkey!

With your encouragement I divided my Carl Griffin's starter and made part of it very much stiffer than usual. I then used that starter to bake a wholegrain loaf this weekend. It turned out great! I couldn't believe that I was raising bread dough with 10 grain cereal, flax seed, and mostly whole wheat flour as light as it rose in both the bowl and the loaf pan - and absolutely no commercial yeast!

I'd like to post a picture, but the little green tree is not cooperating - or it could be me. If you reply here, please tell me how to post a pic.

Thanks for your expertise and helping all of us along on our sourdough adventures.

Teresa

Submitted by JMonkey on February 19, 2007 - 5:34pm.

Teresa - glad to hear it worked!

I've learned a lot, however, since this posting 8 months ago. A couple of things that I now know make a LOT of difference.

Make sure that at least the final rise at about 85 degrees F: It really does make a huge difference in flavor and rise. The loaf I made today was just bursting out of the pan after only 2 hours of proofing at 85 degrees.
Lengthen the fermentation time: Whatever the amount of starter you're using, deflating the dough (preferably through stretching and folding) to give the dough more time to ferment will definitely increase flavor.

Of all of these, the 85 degree proof is, I think, by far the most important.

Submitted by Floydm on February 19, 2007 - 6:59pm.

Warm rising

I'm finding similar things about rising sourdough: I can give my low yeasted breads more time and eventually they'll rise, but my sourdough really does need to be risen at warmer-than-room temperature to do its thing.

Submitted by kolobezka on February 6, 2010 - 11:53am.

Higher temperature?

Why is a higher temerature so important when other bakers recommend ordinary room temperatures or even refrigeration for the proofing?

zdenka

Submitted by Brian D on May 29, 2008 - 8:59am.

JMonkey...

Sorry to revive this thread after so long of a period of rest. But I have a question. I looked for an email address but didn't fine one. Oh well...

You indicate that when feeding your sriff starter to add 1 unit of water for every 2 units of flour. But you did not indicate how much starter to use. You state early on to use 2 ounces of 100% starter to 5 ounces flour and 2 ounces water giving you 9 ounces of starter. How much of that start is used for the next feeding? All 9 ounces increasing the whole starter to 12 ounces? Or a portion like 2 ounces and discarding the other 7 ounces?

Like I said, sorry to be a pain and revive this thread. Thanks.

Submitted by somegeek on June 17, 2008 - 5:59pm.

Thanks for taking the time

Thanks for taking the time to post this! Noted. :)

Submitted by jackmw@cableone.net on June 21, 2008 - 8:47am.

Very interesting reading----

At almost 88 I am just getting into bread baking----and a week ago mixed my first starter batch in a quart fruit-jar-----3 days ago the bubbles started and it was like watching a baby chick hatch-----maybe this old WW-2 Marine is getting senile-----you have a very good instructional site

Jack Whitesell Prescott Az.

Submitted by Paddyscake on June 21, 2008 - 6:56pm.

Nah..not senile..

You just joined a group of people who are obsessive about their sourdough/starters, some even naming them! Welcome to the mix! Look forward to hearing about your baking adventrures.

Submitted by LindyD on June 21, 2008 - 8:11pm.

Welcome, and thanks, Jack.

Glad to have you on board, Jack. Terrific that you're starting to bake.

And thanks for your service. Keep us posted on your yeasties!

Semper Fi!

Submitted by Wild-Yeast on June 22, 2008 - 12:31am.

Firm Active Starter...,

JMonkey's experiences and findings parallel my own closely. I use white rye flour as a sour note director when needed. One interesting point that's beginning to emerge is that low temperature starting aids oven spring. Clocehing the bread in the beginning retains steam but also lowers the rate at which the dough absorbs heat allowing a longer period of yeast activity and gas expansion. I had the same experience without cloching when the oven wasn't ready but the bread went in anyway. The spring was nearly double to what usually occured. Turing the oven up as the bread bakes to obtain the right carmelization of the crust is without question. It's just the initial conditions that are important. Come to think of it the old steam injection method injected water which lowered the ambient temperature of the oven. I believe that this is what we've actually been experiencing. Below is an example of my standard bake. The loaf is, by necessity, becoming larger due to the rate at which it disappears!

Wild-Yeast

Standard Loaf rev. 2

Submitted by Mini Oven on June 22, 2008 - 12:51am.

WY, Lovely loaf!

Mini O

Submitted by ehanner on June 22, 2008 - 9:59am.

Very Nice W-Y

Very nice expansion Wild-Yeast. Is that a sour dough Italian inside? I'd be curious to see the crumb if you have it.

Was the loaf pictured above covered or steamed?

Eric

Submitted by Wild-Yeast on June 22, 2008 - 5:19pm.

Crumb Structure

Thanks MiniO.

Eric, It's a sort of mix of types. We like toasted bread and sandwiches resulting in a smaller crumb with a rich velvety texture somewhat similar to cake. It's very similar to Italian bread but has similarities to French. It has a sourdough smell but a distinctly sweet taste (strange I know). The loaf pictured above was baked on a stone covered with a stainless steel steam tray pan for the first 15 minutes. I preheat the oven to 450 F. using convection mode; parchmented dough is slid onto the stone and covered with the steam tray pan; the temperature is reset to bake at 400 F. The cover pan and parchment are removed after 15 minutes and the oven temperature increased to 450 F. Baking continues for 12 to 17 minutes longer, just enough to brown the crust but not long enough to bake too much moisture out of the crumb.

Wild-Yeast

Crumb Shot; Std. Bake

Submitted by mredwood on January 5, 2009 - 3:46pm.

sourdough

I keep trying sourdough with not much success. Mostly my sour is not too sour especially since I lost my Ak sourdough. They don't revive well. They're not sour. They will not rise a loaf of bread. When I whip up a no knead recipe which is essentially a preferment with 1/4 tsp of yeast it comes out really nice. Large, flavorful and pretty with holes. I rarely make a fast rising bread anyway. I did once. People liked it. It seems so odd after slow rises. I have a few more things to try. I better get cracking. Oh I just realized something. I use to use Guisto's bakers preference thing. Everything came out great. I am using Pendleton Super Power Bread Flour and Various AP flours. I guess I best be changing back. I love Guisto's. It's so sweet.

Submitted by noyeast on April 26, 2009 - 6:33pm.

mredwood, not sure why your

mredwood, not sure why your starter is not producing sourdough bread. Are you saying the starter does not revive well ?

What exactly have you tried in terms of trying to revive it ?

SD starters ferment naturally all by themselves ( with feeding) so I'm puzzled that yours won't revive ?

This may help in some way: I am currently using my first and only SD starter which started 6 weeks ago with nothing more than flour and water. Its been working very well producing great SD loaves which take 10 hrs to double at cool room temps, then I cold retard overnight. Once at room temp again the next day they take a further 4 hours to complete 2 risings and foldings in warm temp. Thats quite a long time I think but the thing is, it works and the loaves have great crumb and sour flavour. I am just beginning a three day regime of feeding my SD starter at 4 hourly intervals during the day, then I will leave it overnight at the end of the 3rd day and then use my starter to make SD on the 4th day.

I believe this is going to optimise my starter and I expect very much quicker rise and proof phases. We'll see if it works... ! I'm not too concerned about hydration levels right now, only that I end up with a fairly dryish starter at the end of this feeding regime. I will learn more about hydration as I progress in my baking and reading up here in this forum.

My buddy who is a very experienced pro baker says it will work. In fact he says the starter when treated like this, performs much closer to instant yeast. I'm not sure about SD flavour though.

Let us know what those steps were to revive your starter.

Paul.

Submitted by mredwood on April 27, 2009 - 12:23pm.

sourdough

Thanks for your input. You are probably going to want more info than I can give. Here's what I do. Out of the fridge I take the crock. Open it air it out. After an hour or so I add flour & purified water to maintain the batter like consistancy I like. Ok I'm going to take it out now. Ok it's out. The culture always bubbles and smells good or not much at all. When it slows down I add more. Bubbles again. Not bad so far. Then when I am ready to bake it will be bully starter that I add per the recipe I am using. This is where things slow down and possibly change smell.

I guess my rooms are always on the cool side. I will expect that the dough developement will take longer now. But as it continues to rise the smell changes. Sour yes. But not the nice sourdough I like. An odd sour. Like too sour that you want to add something to mello it out or change it. Not plesant, odd. Not spoiled.

Usually after a time I give up and add a small amount of instant yeast.

Well another day another loaf. This science is understandabe as I read it but putting it into practice leaves a bit to be desired. I wish there was a simple rule to memorize. Like in planting. Fuzzy but down. Like cold or flu? Neck up cold.

Thanks again

Mariah

Submitted by Oldcampcook on April 27, 2009 - 12:56pm.

Starter - Mariah

It seems to me that you may not be feeding your starter enough and that is why it is not raising your dough.

This is the method I have used for several years, both for the starters I developed and for others that people have sent me.

FOR FLOUR BASED:

1. Put one teaspoon of starter in a clean container. Add four teaspoons of flour and 3 teaspoons of filtered (non chlorinated) water. Stir well.

2. Repeat the above at 12-hour intervals, discarding the excess. I do this at 6 am and 6 pm as that suits my work schedule.

If you flush the excess down the drain, use plenty of COLD water. Also wash your utensils and containers with COLD water. Remember, the paste you made as a kid was just flour and water!

3. When the starter is nice and bubbly, you can start building up to the quantity you need for your recipe.

4. Use this ratio: one portion of starter, 4 portions of flour and 3 portions of water. Example: ¼ cup of starter, one cup of flour and ¾ cup of water will give you more than a cup of starter, which is what a lot of recipes call for.

Others use the ratio of 1/2/2 or even 1/6/6. But the 1/4/3 works for me.

5. After you remove what you need for your recipe, feed the starter again and refrigerate.

6. I usually start feeding on Thursday evening for a Saturday bake. That way I know my starter is good and healthy.

Another thing you can do with the excess starter is store it in a large container in the fridge and use it for sourdough biscuits and pancakes. Waste not, want not!!!!

IF YOU USE A SCALE, USE EQUAL WEIGHTS OF STARTER, FLOUR AND WATER.

Like I said, this has worked for me very successfully. You might also check my site at www.allthingsbread.bravehost.com to see if there is anything else helpful to you.

Bob

Submitted by Walking Dude on November 14, 2009 - 2:56pm.

I take it, this is for a

I take it, this is for a 100-200% hydration starter?

If so, how would you do this with a stiff starter? Still the equal weights?(I always try to weigh my ingrediants)

thankx

Submitted by mredwood on April 27, 2009 - 2:02pm.

starter- oldcampcook

okey dokey I am going to do it. Now, Today. This means it should be good and going in a few days. We shall see. Thanks

Mariah

Submitted by Grospellier on July 15, 2009 - 9:44am.

Sourdough success

I had tried sourdough without success until I browsed your site. My sour did not revive well and could not rise a loaf of bread. So I followed your recommendations. I divided my starter much stiffer than usual and I used it to bake a wholegrain loaf. And it worked beautifully.

Thank you so much for helping me with my sordough experimentations,

Grospellier

Submitted by pjaj on July 16, 2009 - 4:36pm.

PoilaneStyle Souedough - very sour

I too have been baking sourdough only since the beginning of this year and with moderate success. The loaves have not been especially sour. But recently I bought a copy of BBA and tried the Poilane-Style recipe. It does take up to 4 days.

Day 1 - create a barm from standard wet seed culture. let it become active and refrigerate over night.

Day 2 - create firm starter from barm - let it double in size and refrigrerate over night

Day 3 - make final dough - let it prove, shape as required, rise, refrigerate over night.

Day 4 - bake

The result was very sour indeed, probably due to the extended fermentation times. I've never tasted any sourdough (mine or commercial, UK or US) as sour as this.

You can cut out some of the over night refrigeration, for example bake on the 3rd day.

Submitted by deblacksmith on July 16, 2009 - 5:09pm.

Too Sour for me.

Very interesting thread and history. I want to go in the other direction -- my starter makes good bread that is excessively sour for my taste.

What I think I have learned from reading this and other threads and comments is that what I need to do is take my starter -- out of the refrigerator and build it / renew it 3 times a day for 3 or 4 days and move to a high hydration starter 125 %. Then make my bread and do not retard it over night but plan on baking the same day.

We will see how I do.

Dave

Submitted by pjaj on July 16, 2009 - 5:28pm.

Re: Too sour for me

Yup, that should do it. My earlier attempts were "everything in a day" and they were decidedly less sour. Even I don't know if I want my bread quite as sour as I described above.

Submitted by pattycakes on July 19, 2009 - 11:17am.

Too sour...

As I understand it, cold encourages growth of the sour aspects, warm encourages more of the lactobaccilli. This is clearly not the scientific explanation, but I'm sure you can find that on this site. I keep my starter on the counter and discard daily all but a slight skimming in the bottom. It's 100% hydration, and in this summer weather is ready in 4-5 hours. I can use it or just continue to refresh. I try not to put it in the refrigerator because I don't enjoy the sour as much as the complexity the starter adds.

Patricia

Submitted by georgejforeman on July 20, 2009 - 2:45pm.

My god

God it looks good. Makes me hungry just looking at the final picture right now.

Submitted by Frank Damore on October 1, 2009 - 8:36am.

Sour Dough

One thing to understand about sourdough starters is that it is a community. As the culture matures in a fementing dough different organizims will take a dominate or passive role based upon the PH on the fermenting body. The PH changes as the waste of the culture accumilates. The sour flavor that we hope for is the result of viniger like compounds that build up.

What the culture is after is sugars that it finds in the moist dough. The less availible these sugars are the harder the culture will work to find them. This process involves compounds that break complexed elements of the mix into the simple carbs that these critters are after.

Eventually in the later stages of this process as carbs become less availible and protiens are more abundant the yeasts produce a compound called "protiese". While these compunds have a strong sour flavor and smell. The otherside of this part of the yeast community is that they use the "protiese" to break down the protiens into more useful componants. Sugars, water and carbon dioxide the gas that makes our bread expand. Without well developed protiens our bread has weak body and will often rip from oven spring. It is even hard to butter with warm butter.

Rye flour starter will give you a headstart on producing a sour flavored sourdough. But this also compromises the integraty of the crumb.

In 1970 I went down to San Francisco to find out if the Guru's of sourdough would help me make a sour sourdough. I was told that they used malt viniger to flavor their bread and that the real advantage of sourdoughs is not only the subltle flavors that come from the yeast but also the character of the crumb and crust that comes from the slow development of the bread.

I have been making sourdoughs for 40+ years and make at least 15 varieties everyday. I do have some that are more sour that others and the technique used does profoundly impact the result. But the flour used, the temps maintained, the time fermenting and the dertermine how it will come out in the end. Strong elastic crumb and great crust usually don't go with powerful sour flavor. Commercial baskery supply houses offer a number of flavorings for those folks that have devloped their notion of what sourdough is suppoed to taste like from having eaten flavored doughs.

I suggest that we go for the best crumb and crust and the wonderful and subtle sour will be there.

Submitted by droidman on December 1, 2009 - 9:13am.

great advice

I followed several of your tips, including stiffening the starter, spiking with rye, and increasing my refrigerated phase. Been using the Basic Sourdough recipe from BBA and a starter initialized with Beth Hensperger's recipe from the Bread Bible.

My most recent loaf had a secondary fermentation in the fridge for 48 hours, and the loaf is as sour as anything I had in San Francisco.

Submitted by SourdoughBaker on January 2, 2010 - 3:57pm.

Starter categories

Been following this conversation for quite a while now - an amazing amount of great information and testament to the enterprise and collaborative spirit of all levels of baker - home, commercial and academic.

I've been writing about sourdough starters in quite distinct categories, as this subject has popped up for me before in the process of collating my own couple of decades worth of bakery knowledge into something that makes sense to others.

It does occur to me that starters fall into three distinct categories. There may be more, but this is where I'm at with it for what it's worth. I don't have an opinion as to which is best or whatever - they are three entirely different starter maintenance philosophies, leading to three quite different textures of starter. And yes, they definitely do have different flavour characteristics too.

The first one is what I believe could be termed 'liquid starter', which covers everything from about 80 percent hydration, up to 200 percent. As a reference point, though, I've worked on 100 percent as the 'median'.

Here's the link:

http://www.sourdoughbaker.com.au/starters/liquid-sourdough-starters.html

This type seems to be the way most sourdoughs begin life - anything from a milky to a thick batter, or even thicker. But generally it's pourable. This type of starter is characterised by the fact that it produces mild flavoured sourdough bread. Liquid starter ripens more quickly if maintained in a more liquid state. Thus, some 'runny' liquid starters need to be fed a couple of times a day. These starters produce very delicately flavoured sourdoughs, and are also commonly maintained as 'preferments' for other styles of artisan breads.

On the other hand, there are those liquid starters which are kept at a very thick batter consistency, barely pourable, which only reguire feeding (in a domestic context, at least) on a weekly basis. These are a little punchier in flavour, and once well established can be easily controlled by storage temperature and feeding cycles. Essentially, thicker liquid starters allow a wider bandwidth to produce controlled 'sourness' in the bread made, up to a point.

The next distinct category of starter I would classify as the 'Old Dough' Sourdough method. This is where a piece of the dough made from a sourdough, either before or after the addition of salt, is reserved and stored as the 'starter' for the next batch of bread. Obviously, the original leaven for this must come from somewhere - and often it originally comes from a liquid sourdough starter which is then 'turned' into a chunk of old dough.

I would say that the hydration percentage of this type of starter would be in the vicinity of 55 percent to 75 percent, but is dictated by the liquid ratio within the actual dough recipe.

Here's the link for more information on this type of starter method:

http://www.sourdoughbaker.com.au/starters/old-dough-technique.html

This technique produces a more cultured flavour of bread, as there is a slower, more consistent micro environment for the sourdough 'community of organisms' to live in.

The old dough technique is used in many commercial bakeries worldwide, as it is simple and consistent. It doesn't allow the same flexibility of use that the liquid method is blessed with, but it can be used domestically very well, particularly if the home baker makes similar breads each week or fortnight.

The third distinct category of sourdough starter would be what I'll call the 'dry dough' method. This is what jmonkey and others are working with in this blog. It also includes, I think, 'desem' starter, and 'cowboy' starter, to name a few I've come across. These all tend to be characterised by the use of less than 50 percent hydration in the recipe. They use a very 'tough' starter, one which has used the actual fermentation process of the sourdough culture to forcibly 'dry' the dough out to a biscuit or cake like consistency.

As starter matures, it consumes the carbohydrate, making it softer and more 'liquid' (though actually the liquid component hasn't changed). The dry dough technique utilises this 'softening' to thicken the starter beyond the point of 'dough'. When it's really thick, a whole different enzyme balance happens in the 'community of organisms', as I like to call them. Please remember, I'm a baker, not a scientist.

Anyway, they become very sour over time. There is a much deeper level of fermentation going on in the dry dough style.

Here's the link:

http://www.sourdoughbaker.com.au/starters/desem-sourdough-starter.html

This type of sourdough method is characterised by the intensely sour flavour in the bread it makes, especially if used at 'typical' levels in a sourdough recipe - say 20 to 30 % against the flour weight. However, dry dough is powerful and balanced, so it can also be used at much lower levels in a recipe. This produces a rather more subtle flavour in the bread, but rather like an old wine, it is simply a little more understated, rather than any less sour. I use my dry dough at 10% against the flour weight in a recipe, and it is very deeply a part of the flavour of the bread, even at this level.

It is also possible to make dry dough, even in a commercial bakery, on a weekly basis, as it usually takes a good few days to return to useability after a feed. Again, while it takes a bit of doing to get one of these going, and there is a whole lot of discussion I know in this forum already on this subject, they are also amazingly low maintenance once established.

I think it's amazing that this forum exists, and I just felt inspired to contribute. Hope it makes sense!

Cheers.

Submitted by frenchcreek baker on February 6, 2010 - 12:11pm.

dry dough feeding

Thanks everyone for sharing sourdough knowledge!

I have a question, Sourdough Baker, about this statement:

"It is also possible to make dry dough, even in a commercial bakery, on a weekly basis, as it usually takes a good few days to return to useability after a feed."

Can you explain what you mean by "it takes a good few days to return to useability after a feed"?

Was this another way of saying you need to feed your old dough dry starter several days before it is ready to use for baking?

I found it very helpful to learn that you are using 10% dry dough. I have created a new dry dough culture, feeding it for the last week. I started the culture using old dough from a potato bread. It is being maintained at room temp of 69 F, fed whole wheat once daily (except twice a week I include 10 percent of rye with the whole wheat feeding flour). According to the info posted here, the resulting bread should be sour. I am not as interested in a strong sour flavor as opposed to the depth of flavor with a touch of sour. I will try your recommended 10 percent of dry dough when baking.

Do you keep individual dry dough starters of white, rye, etc or simply customize the "mother" dry dough with multiple feedings of a particular flour of choice when the need arises?

cheers,

anne

Submitted by SourdoughBaker on January 4, 2010 - 11:06pm.

Cold

Yes, that's right. Every time you take a ferment through a range of temperatures, it increases in sourness, as the lactic acid builds up in the ferment. This also applies to dough - each time it passes below about 15 degrees celsius, it increases in sourness slightly.

Here's a link with more info:

http://www.sourdoughbaker.com.au/starters/liquid-sourdough-starters/starting-the-sourdough-starter.html

Cheers!

Submitted by maryserv on January 10, 2010 - 2:19pm.

SOUR dough

That very succinct post I will remember the next time I prep a loaf. What a great thread!

Thanks all!

Submitted by SourdoughBaker on February 7, 2010 - 4:39pm.

dry dough feeding

Hi Anne,

Great questions! I see the ambiguity in what I wrote. You can still use dry dough a day after a feed - but in bakeries we tend to work with set volumes, and customers have completely unpredictable demands. Thus, you can find yourself pushing out more bread, and leaving yourself less of the dry dough than you would like to rebuild. For example, if you used 90% of a particular dry dough for orders, and had to rebuild your set volume, you might find it will take 3 days to become active again.

On the other hand, if you managed to retain, say, 50% of the dry dough, it would be ready in a day or less.

That's why, in a bakery at least, I would keep two desems, and rotate between them each week. Another way would be to simply feed it a small amount (a top up) each day, though this tends to defeat the purpose a bit.

I just keep mine with different flours feeding it - I'll swing it white for a while, then give it a feed of whole rye or spelt every now and again. I find it doesn't effect the look of the bread made from it all that much. If, however, you are a fully commercial bakery, I would definitely keep a number of different grades for different products. The difficulties of doing this, though, can come to the fore when staff mess things up (and they tend to!)..

I also have an almost unripe (freshly fed) frozen liquid starter for a backup, which can be used immediately after thawing just in case everything turns to poo - but it never has (touch wood) in recent years...

(see http://www.sourdoughbaker.com.au/stories/the-day-the-starter-died.html for the story about this)

And yes, 10% is about ideal for this type of starter. 25% and above is, for my taste, just too strong to be palateable.

This is such an amazing thread! Cheers to all - I'm learning so much, and I'm also learning what detailed scientists us home bakers can be! What a great thing this forum is. Thanks to those who keep it all running!

Search

User login

Recommended Books

Favorite Recipes

Comment viewing options

ALSO ONTHE FRESH LOAF

RSS Feed

Advertisement

ALSO ON
THE FRESH LOAF