Submitted by JMonkey on July 2, 2006 - 9:43pm

Lesson: Squeeze more sour from your sourdough

I am far from a sourdough expert. I’ve only been baking sourdough since February, and I still have a lot to learn about shaping, scoring and proofing to perfection.

However, there is one thing I have learned well: how to squeeze more flavor out of my naturally sweet starter. Here's the basic tips.

1) Keep the starter stiff
2) Spike your white starter with whole rye
3) Use starter that is well-fed
4) Keep the dough cool
5) Extend the rise by degassing
6) Proof the shaped loaves overnight in the fridge

Photos and elaboration follow.

It’s a common lament that I see on bread baking forums – Why isn’t my sourdough sour?

Personally, I blame Watertown. My evidence? I gave some of my starter to a friend who lives six miles away in Lexington. Within 6 weeks, she was making sour tasting sourdough. Her local yeastie beasties are clearly more sour than mine.

I don’t know what it is about the microflora that live in the little hollow between the hills that I occupy in Watertown, Mass., but treated traditionally, my white starter and my whole wheat starter pack as much sour taste as a loaf of Wonder Bread. That’s not to say that the loaves don’t taste nice. They do. They’re wheaty with a touch of a buttery aftertaste.

But they don’t taste sour, which is how I think sourdough ought to taste.

Anyway, I’ve finally figured out how to get the tangy loaves I love. If you’re facing the same sweet trouble as me, perhaps some (or all) of these tips will help.

1) Keep your starter stiff:

Traditionally, sourdough starter is kept as a batter. The most common consistency is to have equal weights of water and flour, also known as 100% hydration because the water weight is equal to 100% of the flour weight. That’s roughly 1 scant cup of flour to about ½ cup of water. Jeffrey Hammelman keeps his at 125%, and quite a few folks keep theirs at 200% (1 cup water to 1 cup flour).

I keep my sourdough starter at 50% hydration, meaning that for every 2 units of flour weight, I add 1 unit of water.


Barney Barm, my white starter is on the left; Arthur the whole wheat starter on the right. The bran and germ in whole wheat absorb a lot of water, so that starter is even stiffer than the white.

There are two basic types of bacteria that flourish in a sourdough starter. One produces lactic acid, which gives the bread a smooth taste, sort of like yogurt. It does best in wet, warm environment. The other makes acetic acid, the acid that gives bread its sharp tang. These bacteria prefer a drier, cooler environment.

(Or so I've read, anyway. I ain't no biochemist; I just know what they print in them books.)

A hydration of 50% is pretty stiff, especially for a whole-wheat starter. You really have to knead strongly to convince the starter to incorporate all the flour.


For example, here's my white starter after I've done my best to mix it up in the bucket. Time to knead a bit.


Here's what it looks like after kneading.


And here's what it looks like 5 hours later once it's ripe.

Conversion from 100% to 50% isn't hard to do if you've got a kitchen scale.

Take 2 ounces of your 100% starter. Then add 5 ounces of flour and 2 ounces of water. This should give you 9 ounces of starter. Leave it overnight, and it should be ripened in the morning.

From there on out when you feed it, add 1 unit of water for every 2 units of flour. I'd recommend feeding it 2 or 3 more times before using it, though, so that the yeast and bacteria can acclimate to the new environment.

There are additional advantages to a stiff starter beyond producing a more sour bread.

First, a stiff starter is easier to transport. Just throw a hunk into a bag, and you’re done.

Supposedly, the stiff stuff keeps longer than the batters. You can leave stiff starter in the fridge for months, or so I hear, and it can still be revived. Never tried it myself, though, so don't take my word for it.

Finally, the math for feeding is easy at 50% hydration, much easier than 60% or 65%. Just feed your starter in multiples of threes. For exmaple, if I’ve got 3 ounces of starter and I need to feed it, I'll probably triple it in size. To get six additional ounces for food, I just add 4 ounces flour and 2 ounces water. Piece of cake.

Converting recipes isn’t hard either. First, figure out the total water weight and total flour weight in the original recipe, including what's in the starter. If the recipe calls for a 100% hydration starter, then half of the starter is flour and the other half is water. Divide it accordingly to get the total flour and total water weights in the final dough.

Now, add the total water and total flour together. Take that figure and multiply by 0.30. This will tell you how much stiff starter you’ll need.

Last, subtract the amount of water in the stiff starter from the total water in the final dough, and the amount of flour in the stiff starter from the total flour in the final dough. The results tell you how much flour and water to add to the starter to get the final dough. Everything else remains the same.

2) Spike your white starter with whole rye flour:

It doesn’t take much. Currently, my white starter is about 10-15% whole rye. Basically, for every 3 ounces of white flour that I feed the starter, I replace ½ ounce with whole rye. That small portion of rye makes a big difference in flavor. Rye is to sourdough microflora as spinach is to Popeye. It’s super-food that’s easily digestible and nutrient rich. That’s why so many recipes for getting a starter going from scratch suggest you start with whole rye.

Here I am, about to add rye to "Barney Barm," my white starter. I haven’t added rye to my whole-wheat starter, though. It hasn’t needed it – there’s more than enough nutrients in the whole wheat to keep the starter party going strong.

3) Use starter that is well fed: Early in my search to sour my sourdough, I’d read that, if you leave a starter unfed and on the counter for a few days before baking, it will make your bread more sour.

I’ve found that’s not the case. The starter gets more sour, but the bread doesn’t taste very sour at all.

The better course is to take your starter out of the fridge at least a couple of days before you use it, and then feed it two or three times before you make the final dough. Healthy microflora make a more flavorful bread.

4) Keep the dough cool:

When I first started out, I was following recipes that called for the dough to be at 79 degrees, and I’d often put it in a fairly warm place to rise. Warmth kills sour taste. Nowadays, I add water that’s room temperature, not warmed, and aim for a much cooler rise, no higher than 75 degrees and often as low as 64.

The cellar is your friend.

5) Extend the rise by degassing:

When I make whole wheat sourdough, I usually let the dough rise until it has doubled and then degass it by folding until it rises a second time. Along with cool dough, this means the bulk fermentation usually lasts 5-6 hours.

When I’m making pain au levain or some other white flour sourdough, I usually have the dough very wet, so it needs more than one fold to give it the strength it needs. In this case, I fold once at 90 minutes and then again after another 90 minutes. Usually, the full bulk rise lasts about 5 hours.

Here's a sequence showing how I fold my whole-wheat sourdough.


First, turn the risen dough out on a lightly floured surface (heavily floured if your dough is very wet).


Stretch it to about twice its length.


Gently degass one-third of the dough, fold it over the middle, and degass the middle section to seal.


Do the same for the remaining side. Take the folded dough, turn it one-quarter, and fold once more before returning to the bowl or bucket to rise again.

6) Proof the shaped loaves overnight in the fridge:

This final touch really brings out the flavor. So much so that, if you’ve incorporated all the other suggestions, proofing overnight might make your bread a bit too sour for your taste. My wife and I like it assertively sour, however, so this step is a must.

Normally, I’d suggest proofing your loaves on the top shelf where it’s warmest, so as not to kill off any yeast, but I find that if I put my loaves in the top, they’re ready in about 4-6 hours, at which time I’m usually sound asleep. So I started putting them in the bottom, and had better luck.

I hope this helps those of you who dread pulling another beautiful loaf from the oven, only to find it looks better than it tastes. Best of luck!

Great lesson!

Hi JMonkey,
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post the above sourdough lesson! I found it extremely informative with lots of great tips and photos...I have read your suggestions for using a stiff starter many times on this site, but I couldn't really grasp exactly how to go about it until now. Thanks for sharing your experiences with us :)

Nice job JMonkey!

To add a bit of my own experience:

I've found that even if you keep a fairly wet starter - mine's about a poolish - the overnight ferment will still give you a great sour tang. I feed my starter the night before, let it bubble about 4 hours, then refrigerate it overnight. Once I make the dough, if I want a really sour bread, I'll refrigerate it overnight again.

It does make a noticeable difference.

-Joe

Wet starter

I used to keep a wet starter for my white flour -- 200%, so it was really wet. But it didn't make my bread very sour. I wonder if I spiked the 200% with rye what it would do? And I wonder what it might do to my whole wheat starter?

Hmmmmmm. I'm going to have to experiment next week .... Thanks Joe!

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Wheat or Rye or Oat starters

I used to believe that any sourdough starter could raise a variety of other grains but I now believe each starter is specific to itself and it's pH. If you want a mixed starter, one for say wheat and rye, then combine two starters first, then feed with mixed flours. I also think the liquid that forms on top of the starter is the "sour" and should be used. I poured it off once and noticed a big reduction in sour taste. Mini Oven

Comments welcome on new forum topic under same subject. Thanks

flour for sourdough starter

This is an interesting discussion of ways to maintain a sourdough culture. I tried several methods when I began making sourdough bread. Different books make quite different recommendations -- and different preferments for different specific beads within the same book. All very puzzling to a beginner. So one day I asked the baker whose work I have been observing.

His reply was, "I'm not a good person to ask. I do everything the same way." He maintains his culture at 125% hydration, feeds it twice a day with half wheat and half rye flour, and uses a factor of eight. Sourdough culture is one eighth of the flour in a batch of bread, something like that. His culture is very lively with all that feeding and the warmth of the huge wood-fired oven in the bakery.

Whatever he said, I have had success with all kinds of wholegrain and white bread, including 100% whole rye bread, doing this:

  • My storage culture (what stays in a crock in the refrigerator) is 125% hydration whole rye sourdough -- though there are traces of the original whole wheat from the original wheat-based sourdough I began with.
  • Twenty four to thirty hours before I plan to mix dough I get the crock out of the refrigerator and add enough rye flour and water to make the amount of culture I'll need for the bread, four parts by weight of flour to five parts of cold tap water (we live in the country and have a good well).
  • The crock then stays on the kitchen counter till the next stage 12 hours later.
  • Which is making a leaven for the dough. I use various combinations of freshly milled whole wheat, spelt, and rye flours and germ added/retained wheat and King Arthur artisan wheat flours, all organic. While the culture is fermenting I will have mixed the flour for this particular bread. Each leaven contains one part culture and seven parts flour and water, using the flour I've just mixed. The leaven ferments for 12 to 16 hours in the bowl I'll use for the dough.
  • Using the baker's factor of eight, the leaven contains one eighth of the flour in the dough; the culture used to start the leaven contains one eighth of the flour in the leaven. So to mix the dough I add the requisite flour and water, and after some autolyse however much salt, seeds, nuts, raisins, or what have you.
  • Bread making proceeds from there through bulk fermentation, dividing and shaping, proofing, and baking.

To summarize, I have one kind of sourdough culture and then make a preferment for each bread using the flour for that particular recipe.

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Great article

Yeah, very nice article, JMonkey. Would you mind if I featured it in one of the two main blocks on top of the front page?

Floyd

Sure! I'd be tickled pink!

Thanks, JMonkey

I was delighted when StumbleUpon took me to your sourdough page. I baked with my Alaskan starter for ten years, with lots of fun, both hits and misses. I still use the starter, but only for pancakes and waffles. But after reading your suggestions, I'm inspired to get back into the kitchen and do some more dough play. My loaves, though everybody, including me, loved them, never achieved the sourness that I usually sought. Now perhaps, with your help.... I'll let you know.

Doug

Alaskan sourdough

Great! Glad to hear it inspired you to go back to the bread-stuff. Can't wait to hear if it helps.

Converting to a stiff starter

I realized that I didn't add anything about how to convert your 100% starter to 50%. Again, it's not hard to do if you've got a kitchen scale.

Take 2 ounces of your 100% starter. Then add 5 ounces of flour and 2 ounces of water. This should give you 9 ounces of starter. Leave it overnight, and it should be ripened in the morning.

From there on out when you feed it, add 1 unit of water for every 2 units of flour. I'd recommend feeding it 2 or 3 more times before using it, though, so that the yeast and bacteria can acclimate to the new environment.

(I've also added this to the lesson itself)

incorporating the stiff starter into the dough

hi J,

thanks for your blog, very informative indeed.

sorry to ask you a stupid question but once the stiff starter has "matured" and you are ready to bake a loaf, since is stiff, how do you incorporate it into the dough? , do you chop it and mix it in?.

i use a 100% rye starter, can I make a stiff version out of it too?

been baking for a couple of months so just a beginner.

cheers,

w

Incorporating stiff starter

Basically, W, I just knead the bejeezus out of it.

Well, that's actually only for whole wheat sourdough, which I make most often. But really all I do is tear it up into about a dozen chunks, mix it up with a spoon and then proceed to kneading. It incorporates well just by kneading alone.

You can certainly make a stiff rye starter, though with rye, you probably won't need to do so. Rye is pretty much the perfect food for sourdough cultures, so your rye starter should be plenty sour. I keep my rye at 100%, myself.

thanks

got it now J, thank you.

have a nice1.

w

my first sourdough

Hi everyone, im new to the site and new to bread baking, i made my first sourdough loaf today, roughly following a recipe Floyd posted. Here it is in all its glory!

I used a mix of white bread flour, with 5 grain bread flour and a bit of rye thrown in for good measure. I let it bulk ferment for 3 and a 1/2 hours with 2 folds during that time. a quick knead and then left it to proof for about 45mins. I did slash it, made a bit of a pigs ear of it but it turned out ok.

My starter was quite liquid, so next time im going to follow your suggestions Jmonkey and see if i can change the flavour. Ive never eaten sourdough before, let alone baked it, so im not sure if it tasted as it should! Will try and increase the sour taste and see if im on the right track. It definitely had a nice tang to it. My dad liked it, hes my barometer when it comes to all things edible, so it cant be bad.

 

Im going to buy a bread book as a present to myself, probably going for The Bread Bakers Apprentice as seen some great comments about it on this site.

Alice x

 

 

Thanks, JMonkey!

With your encouragement I divided my Carl Griffin's starter and made part of it very much stiffer than usual. I then used that starter to bake a wholegrain loaf this weekend. It turned out great! I couldn't believe that I was raising bread dough with 10 grain cereal, flax seed, and mostly whole wheat flour as light as it rose in both the bowl and the loaf pan - and absolutely no commercial yeast!

I'd like to post a picture, but the little green tree is not cooperating - or it could be me. If you reply here, please tell me how to post a pic.

Thanks for your expertise and helping all of us along on our sourdough adventures.

Teresa

Teresa - glad to hear it worked!

I've learned a lot, however, since this posting 8 months ago. A couple of things that I now know make a LOT of difference.

  • Make sure that at least the final rise at about 85 degrees F: It really does make a huge difference in flavor and rise. The loaf I made today was just bursting out of the pan after only 2 hours of proofing at 85 degrees.
  • Lengthen the fermentation time: Whatever the amount of starter you're using, deflating the dough (preferably through stretching and folding) to give the dough more time to ferment will definitely increase flavor.

Of all of these, the 85 degree proof is, I think, by far the most important.

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Warm rising

I'm finding similar things about rising sourdough: I can give my low yeasted breads more time and eventually they'll rise, but my sourdough really does need to be risen at warmer-than-room temperature to do its thing.

JMonkey...

Sorry to revive this thread after so long of a period of rest. But I have a question. I looked for an email address but didn't fine one. Oh well...

You indicate that when feeding your sriff starter to add 1 unit of water for every 2 units of flour. But you did not indicate how much starter to use. You state early on to use 2 ounces of 100% starter to 5 ounces flour and 2 ounces water giving you 9 ounces of starter. How much of that start is used for the next feeding? All 9 ounces increasing the whole starter to 12 ounces? Or a portion like 2 ounces and discarding the other 7 ounces?

Like I said, sorry to be a pain and revive this thread. Thanks. 

Thanks for taking the time

Thanks for taking the time to post this!  Noted.  :)

Very interesting reading----

At almost 88 I am just getting into bread baking----and a week ago mixed my first starter batch in a quart fruit-jar-----3 days ago the bubbles started and it was like watching a baby chick hatch-----maybe this old WW-2 Marine is getting senile-----you have a very good instructional site

 

Jack Whitesell Prescott Az. 

Nah..not senile..

You just joined a group of people who are obsessive about their sourdough/starters, some even naming them! Welcome to the mix! Look forward to hearing about your baking adventrures.

Welcome, and thanks, Jack.

Glad to have you on board, Jack. Terrific that you're starting to bake.

And thanks for your service. Keep us posted on your yeasties!

Semper Fi!

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Firm Active Starter...,

JMonkey's experiences and findings parallel my own closely.  I use white rye flour as a sour note director when needed.  One interesting point that's beginning to emerge is that low temperature starting aids oven spring.  Clocehing the bread in the beginning retains steam but also lowers the rate at which the dough absorbs heat allowing a longer period of yeast activity and gas expansion.  I had the same experience without cloching when the oven wasn't ready but the bread went in anyway.  The spring was nearly double to what usually occured. Turing the oven up as the bread bakes to obtain the right carmelization of the crust is without question.  It's just the initial conditions that are important.  Come to think of it the old steam injection method injected water which lowered the ambient temperature of the oven.  I believe that this is what we've actually been experiencing.  Below is an example of my standard bake.  The loaf is, by necessity, becoming larger due to the rate at which it disappears!

Wild-Yeast

Standard Loaf rev. 2

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WY, Lovely loaf!

Mini O

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Very Nice W-Y

Very nice expansion Wild-Yeast. Is that a sour dough Italian inside? I'd be curious to see the crumb if you have it.

Was the loaf pictured above covered or steamed?

Eric 

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Crumb Structure

Thanks MiniO. 

Eric, It's a sort of mix of types.  We like toasted bread and sandwiches resulting in a smaller crumb with a rich velvety texture somewhat similar to cake.  It's very similar to Italian bread but has similarities to French.  It has a sourdough smell but a distinctly sweet taste (strange I know).  The loaf pictured above was baked on a stone covered with a stainless steel steam tray pan for the first 15 minutes.  I preheat the oven to 450 F. using convection mode; parchmented dough is slid onto the stone and covered with the steam tray pan; the temperature is reset to bake at 400 F.  The cover pan and parchment are removed after 15 minutes and the oven temperature increased to 450 F.  Baking continues for 12 to 17 minutes longer, just enough to brown the crust but not long enough to bake too much moisture out of the crumb.  

Wild-Yeast

Crumb Shot; Std. Bake 

sourdough

I keep trying sourdough with not much success. Mostly my sour is not too sour especially since I lost my Ak sourdough. They don't revive well. They're not sour. They will not rise a loaf of bread. When I whip up a no knead recipe which is essentially a preferment with 1/4  tsp of yeast it comes out really nice. Large, flavorful and pretty with holes. I rarely make a fast rising bread anyway. I did once. People liked it. It seems so odd after slow rises. I have a few more things to try. I better get cracking. Oh I just realized something. I use to use Guisto's bakers preference thing. Everything came out great. I am using Pendleton Super Power Bread Flour and Various AP flours. I guess I best be changing back. I love Guisto's. It's so sweet.

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