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Substituting diastatic malt for non diastatic malt

Anonymous baker's picture
Anonymous baker (not verified)

Substituting diastatic malt for non diastatic malt

When diastatic malt is used mainly for flavour and colour will anything be lost from using non diastatic malt instead? 

Here is recipe using diastatic barley malt. The recipe explains on how to make it and recommends it's good for flavour and colour. 

If I were to make this recipe using crystal rye malt (very close to red rye malt) do you think it'll work just as well? I've got a lot of crystal rye malt grains and all I have to do is give them a whirl in the coffee grinder. 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

won't these freshly ground grains essentially act as diastatic malt ? As I understand, non-diastatic malt is created by boiling the grains. I think you may have exactly what the recipe calls for. They tout the fact that the crust should have a red tone thanks to the diastase. I have a load of diastaric malt and anytime I want it for flavor I boil it for fear of gummy bread (yes I have made many loaves of glue). Seems like you have exactly what the recipe calls for no ?

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I got the grains from a brewery shop and they're intended for those who brew beer. Had a difficult time finding red rye malt but found crystal rye malt instead. Very close! and look almost identical. But it's my understanding that both red and crystal rye malt are non diastatic. They arrived as whole grains and whenever I need some I just grind however much I need in the coffee grinder. It smells like malt beer and has a deep red colour. That's all I know about it. 

I suppose whatever the case I can't go wrong. It has the flavour and while the colour is more of a deep red than the barley malt in the tutorial then what's the worst that can happen? I'll have a more intense colour bread. 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

the shops here seem to have some knowledge of how there goods perform in baking situations as many bakers frequent them but that degree of detail seems (at least to my experience) subject to some conjecture and EOD you just need to try and hopefully not fail. I'm another note and related to your recent comedy video - it's kinda late in uk mate ! 'go to bed spotty' (do you know what britcom ?)

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Try it and see. Seems to be the best way in baking. 

Only vague memories. I was very young at the time. 

I'm glad the memories are only vague :) 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

yes ! Omg I laughed for a minute straight just now !!!!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

diastatic because the heat it is roasted at denatures the enzymes so it has zero power - except for the color and flavor enhancement.  Diastatic and non diastatic malts are not really interchangeable functionally since they do two different things - really great things both..... but very different

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

The most I get from it is flavour and colour? But it's not going to be the make or break of the final loaf. Will the differences be great when it comes to the finished product? 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

More starch will be converted to sugar and if the wee beasties don't eat it all the bread ends up sweeter and the crust will caramelize to a darker color than if it wasn't in there.  The flavor isn't sweet with non diastatic malt it is like the crust was nearly burn, but just max boldly baked and then ground up into powder.  Nothing is too much if you don't do too much of it in bread.  These are all flavors people are used to in bread so no worries.

suave's picture
suave

 

Just to give you some idea as to how close they really are.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

And left is rye crystal malt? Mine, when ground, has a deep red colour so that looks about right to me. 

suave's picture
suave

Left is Russian red malt, right is crystal rye, I am not 100% sure which, Fawcett or Simpsons, but they are about the same.  I've tried multiple batches of all three brands available in the US, those two and Weyermann, and they never come even close in color.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I bought rye crystal malt but it's definitely closer to red rye malt. Much closer! When ground, and comparing to photographs of the real deal, it's almost exactly the same. I'm glad we've had this conversation because I'm thinking perhaps I do have red rye malt which I've been using as a substitute. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Can you ask the brew shop what the diastatic power is on the grain? It is possible that the malt has some degree of DP.

I looked at the link, but it had no grain bill or specs. The shop should be able to provide that. If not, you can find out the company that produced it and then go to their site. The information you need should be listed there.

Dan

suave's picture
suave

Frankly, their description seems wrong - 100-120 EBC is a very, very light color.  Now, if they made a mistake and meant 100-120 Lovibond it'd make more sense, and it would be darker that crystal rye I've seen.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Hi, Suave,

What EBC or Lovibond is your Russian red malt? 

Yippee

suave's picture
suave

I don't know.  Last time I checked the Russians used some weird homegrown analytical method for quantifying malt colors and there was no clear way to translate their numbers to standard scales.  If I were forced to come up with a number I would say 150 L or so.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

You wrote, "When diastatic malt is used mainly for flavour and colour will anything be lost from using non diastatic malt instead? "

Diastatic Malt is used for it's enzymatic action. It provides food for the yeast and also causes the crust to brown better. Non-diastatic (ND) malt on the other hand has had all enzymes killed off because of the temperature of the roast. At high temps the enzymes are killed. ND is used for flavor. When darker varieties of ND are used, such as chocolate malts, the crust and crumb will bake to a dark color without fear of burning. Note; there are also malts that fall into the middle of the range. They can have their enzymatic powers reduced to varying degrees. In brewer's terms that is called their Diastatic Power (DP). 

Thanks for the many people that have helped me with this. Wendy, aka Lazy Loafer comes to mind.

I have used both types, but most often use the ND for flavor and coloring. Diastatic malt should be used in tiny quantities for fear of gummy crumb. It ain't a nice thing...

I get mine from brew shops. And as Geremy said above, the guys are generally not familiar with bread related uses. Their terminology is also extremely different from bread bakers. Each malt comes with a spec sheet (Ithink it's called a grain bill). It explains in technical detail the particulars about each variety. The diastatic power (DP) is the most important spec, IMO. Buy a little of different types. Smell and taste them. I suggest using only 5-10 grams per loaf initially. The stuff is strong.

Dab, may chime in. He uses, and even roast his own.

Danny

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I meant the opposite and don't know why I wrote it that way round. Diastatic malt (such as the barley malt in the description) is used for enzymatic activity. And non diastatic malt (such as my rye crystal or possibly red rye malt; see my conversation with Suave) is purely for flavour and colour.

EDIT: oh it just occured to me... I actually meant it that way round :) 

I remember now... the original poster was using diastatic malt but purely for flavour and colour. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I am always saying the opposite of what I mean. After 33 years my wife, Patsy, knows exactly what I mean <LOL>

I kind of this about malt like I do coffee beans. Take the same bean, roasted in various ways produce different flavors.

There is no concern for failure when using non-diastatic malt.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

That's what I wanted to hear :)

Thank you Dan

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

  Good Morning,  Hope this email finds you well.   I have a question about your Crystal Rye Malt...  https://www.home-brew-hopshop.co.uk/rye-malt/729-193-crystal-rye-malt.html#/49-weight-3kg/50-consistency-crushed  Bought this as a substitute for Red Rye Malt, which is very difficult to find, used for Russian Sourdough breads.   It was my understanding that they were similar. Certainly when these grains arrived, and after I had ground them, the colour seemed almost identical to Red Rye Malt. However I have since learned that Crystal Rye Malt is very light and cannot be confused with Red Rye Malt.   By any chance, due to a mistake (which would be a good one btw), different grades of colour for crystal rye malt or for any other reason do I have something that is close to red rye malt or it is one and the same thing?   Can I ask you for more detail on this product? A friend of mine is under the impression that the colour # given (he is more of an expert than me) doesn't match the deep red colour of this grain.   Thank you, - Abe.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Crystal mat has zero diastatic power meaning it was heated high enough long enough to denature the enzymes.  This usually means a darker color of malt.  I've never used crystal malt in brewing but if I had gone to the store to get some I would have expected it to make stout or porter.  Oddly, the pictures I have seen of some is a mid brown color.  But, to denature the enzymes it only takes 170 F for a short time and then the color would be a modest brown rather perfect for a pale ale.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Dab, I have 3 different Crystal malts. They seem to have different diaststic powers. Browse this chart. http://www.lahomebrew.com/Brewing-Grains-s/1817.htm

I find brewer’s malt difficult to translate to baker’s needs. Basically, if the malt is light in color I take that to mean it was not roasted very hot and could have diastatic power. Not sure if that is correct, though. I feel very safe with darker colored malts.

Dan

suave's picture
suave

Everything referred to as crystal or caramel should be dead.  Of the roasted/kilned varieties only Munich malts should retain diastatic power.