The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Lamination: Croissant

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

Lamination: Croissant

After a few brain farts where I confused the matter of posting a simple reply as opposed to starting a new blog post:

I hereby declare this blog started. The main purpose of this blog is to record what works and what doesn't in my journey towards a great croissant crumb. Yes, it's the crumb I'm trying to perfect, not the taste. Some may disagree, but taste is hardly a problem with croissants - the dough is fermented for a very long time and contains both butter and sugar. It is hard to make it taste bad, in my opinion. What is much easier is to fail with the inner structure, the crumb. The first time I ate a really well made croissant I discovered how much of a difference a really good crumb structure can make. It's almost more important than the flavour for me.

To clarify, I'm looking for a very open, honeycomb/spiderwebby interior, with "walls" that look almost gelatinous. 

I will update this blog soon, with pictures of recent bakes. My overall goal is to change one or two things from bake to bake. I want to understand cause and effect in this process. This will probably mean that I make fairly slow progress, but I'm okay with that as long as it means I know what to do to improve - and what not to do of course! 

Here are some pictures of more or less recent efforts.

This one was from a batch made about one month ago. Below is a pic from my latest batch a few days ago:

Here is the crumb shot from one of those:

And just because, here is a comparison between the older batch and the new one:

And for those extremely interested few, here's the dough after the third fold, during the last roll-out before shaping:

The difference between these two batches is mainly one of my rolling technique and how much I kneaded the dough. The dough in the old batch was kneaded quite a lot, 7-8 min total. It was definitely developed a lot. The second dough got perhaps 5-6 mins, a couple minutes less all in all. I changed my rolling technique for the newest batch here, keeping the dough as square as possible, trimming the ends after rolling it out. Most importantly, I focus much more on forward motion nowadays. I move my rolling pin quite quickly over the dough, and try to make it move forward, so that the pressure is used to lengthen the dough. That way, I need less time to get it to the right length, which in turn makes my dough and butter stay colder than if I rolled with less 'forward push'. 

There is a lot to learn, but I think I'm starting to get somewhere. You can see my breadier croissants in this thread: 
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/45050/croissants-tight-crumb

I can see the honeycomb potential even more in these two batches than in any of the two pics I posted in the above thread. 

@Carlotta: these croissants are made with a higher protein (but still not very high) flour, 10,8%. Those in the above thread were made with a weaker flour, ~8,5%. 

For the next batch, I intend to do exactly what I did for this last one and use a flour with a protein percentage at 11-12%. 

I should mention that I use Jeffrey Hamelmans recipe (available at finecooking.com), with exactly those ratios of ingredients. 

Comments

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

Anyone who has a suggestion that might help me, or give me leads on what I should change next is welcome to speak up! Personally I'm thinking that I might do better with colder butter, and that I have to fix my fermentation. My croissants have a very clear "base", they should be more cylindrical I think.

lotaoto's picture
lotaoto

We are doing the inverse path, today i'm gonna try to make them with a lower protein flour. 

I'm thinking maybe this summer crossing the border and going to some ideal farm or bakery in France were I can learn how to make them!

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

These were baked with a ~12% protein flour. They are still far from perfect, but the result is pretty much the same as with the flour I used for the other two bakes (10.8%). Perhaps weaker or stronger affects the handling rather than the possible result.

lotaoto's picture
lotaoto

Yes, I was thinking the same. I have two tries with different butters now on the fridge, waiting for tomorrow.

One question: how do you do the 'first fermentation'? Some people gave me strong recomendations with that.

I think you are almost there!

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

For this last bake I only let the dough ferment for 2 hours in the fridge after mixing and kneading (for around 5-6 minutes). I don't think it did any harm, and it's much easier for me to make it fit with my schedule. I also wanted to see if I got more expansion and a more open crumb that way, since the dough didn't get as much time to rise. If I let it sit for 8-12 hours like I usually do, it always rises no matter what I do. In the end, it didn't seem to make much difference for my crumb though. 

Thanks for the encouragement :) Try changing the fermentation, I don't think it's going to hurt your results that much and it might make the process easier in the end. 

lotaoto's picture
lotaoto

What I mean about the fermentation is that they told me that if you let it rise you are 'ruining' the dough, because then there are micro holes that result from the fermentation and the butter melts in this holes, resulting into a more  bready crumb. 

Since they told me this I made this rutine: when I finish kneading, I put the dough in the freezer and let it be there around 4 hours. Then I put it in the fridge the time I want (from 2 to 12 hours).

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

I was sure I had responded, but apparently I'm turning senile at 29 years of age.

What you say is interesting because for this last batch I only let the dough rest for 2 hours in the fridge after mixing & kneading, which meant that it hadn't risen at all when I started. I think your method gives the same kind of result, but perhaps your dough tastes a little better since you leave it in the fridge for so long. 

The main reason I decided to try this was because I think my croissant either:

A) Have too little strength left when baking because the dough has gotten two long rests and lots of deflations (8+ hours after kneading, then ~8 hours before shaping)

B) Are simply overproofed (which would be a bit strange, they haven't been very puffy right before baking so far)

I don't know which assumption is more correct so far, but I want to get right of that flat bottom, they should be more cylindrical. 

How is your new method working for you?

I don't know if that "butter-melting-into-fermentation-holes" is what actually happens, but it's definitely possible.  

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

For my last bake I did things a little differently:

1. First fermentation was only 2 hours, instead of the 8-12 hours of the previous bakes

2. Used stronger flour compared to earlier bakes, 11,8% instead of 10,8%

All in all, it didn't make much difference. I wouldn't say that I handled the dough differently when it comes to rolling and resting. I was in a bit of a rush and used both a little more downward force and forward motion for the last roll-out, but I don't think it had an impact in the end. 

So what does this tell me? 

1. 2 hours of fermentation is enough.

2. The strength of the flour probably isn't that a make or break thing 

And most importantly:

3. I'm still getting fairly tight crumbs in my croissants and the reason is probably that my butter is fusing with the dough because it is too hot. The dough might be too hot as well. 

So for the next bake I will try to start out with even colder butter and dough, and rest more between the threefolds (1 hour or rest for each fold). I will not do the first two folds in one go.

Like I said, anyone is welcome to contribute.  

lotaoto's picture
lotaoto

Yes, it would be great if anybody wants to join the searching & conversation!

"butter-melting-into-fermentation-holes"

haha, well, this is the explanation that a woman that does really good croissants gave me. She was referring to the holes because at my first attempt I thought I had to rise the dough as if it was a bread dough, so she told me that any micro hole would ruin the lamination, and that's why she uses the freezer to radically stop the fermentation.

So we are having the same fermentation-time routine. I'm doing 8-8 hours aprox as well in the 2 fermentations. Maybe I will try to reduce the time of the first ferm, but at the moment this seems good for my croiss. 

New experimentations

I had the same conclusion as you:

It doesn't change a lot If I change the butter or if I use a weaker or stronger flour (of course I guess because the first parameters weren't too bad)

Definitely, I think it is a matter of temperature and the layering technique. 

Sooooo, I was thinking on focusing on that as well.

BUT I have a mental limit that I already approached and that I care more now: don't use a too cold butter or it will break, which was one of the causes of "butter pooling" for me.

After having the problems of butter pooling and a strange flavour I had in two bakes (when I increased the butter) I've realised that I appreciate a lot what I've (we've) already reached: a good taste and nice texture! I think we have the important think :)

Let us now what you get with this new changes!

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

Changing the fermentation (shorter ferm. after kneading) should help with rising power, and it definitely makes the planning easier... I mean, croissants take two days to make after all. 

I too am going to focus more on the lamination technique. I'm hoping that it'll help if I do just on fold at a time and rest at least an hour between each. I'll take your warning though, butter breaking is no good either. 

Good luck, I'll update the blog when I've made a new batch. 

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

Well... I tried a different schedule, see below:

- 3-4 minutes of (hand) kneading after getting a somewhat homogenous dough. Some gluten development, dough was a little elastic but would tear fast when stretched. Not sticky, not dry. 
- 2 hours of fermentation in the fridge + 15 min in the freezer (dough temp. was still at 3-4 C after fridge ferm, ~12,5 C after freezer)
- Butter was ~11 C during fold-in.
- Let the dough rest: 1 hours between fold 1 and fold 2, then 2 hours between fold 2 and fold 3. Then 6-7 hours rest before roll-out. I also rested the dough 30 mins in the fridge during the roll-out to make the rolling easier.
- Kept the rolling pin in the freezer (just a regular wooden one, but it got pretty cold)
- Half the dough was retarded in the fridge overnight, then got about 3,5-4 hours to rise, the other half has currently risen 1 hour since getting up to room temp. Batch 1 was proofed until very puffy and appreciably doubled in size. 

I used a really high quality flour, with 11,5% protein. The result? Disappointing to say the least. The first batch was overproofed, but also very bread-like. There is an evenness and a 'swirl' in the crumb that looks kind of laminated, but the cells were very small and overall the crumb was dense. Batch 2 was better but still appeared overproofed, which suggest that I should have shaped them tighter. Other than that, the crumb was also slightly better but still bread-like. 

What did I learn? 
1. I need to time myself during folds and see to it that the dough is not out in room temp for more than 4-5 minutes. 

2.I also need to pay attention to if the dough is resisting during rolling. In the recipe I use the dough is supposed to be about 60 cm. I get it over 50 without significant trouble, then I have to spend more time on those last cm's. I will have to try and avoid this and simply rest the dough.

3. So far the "proof until very puffy and jiggly" has done anything for me. I will give my croissants 2 hours, not much more, and see where that gets me. 

Overall this bake was just frustrating, and I don't know why it turned out worse than the batches before it. The flour is good, the dough got plenty of rest and was overall slightly colder than before. 

Next bake:  Shorter rolling times, pre-ferment, even colder dough (not butter), long rests (1 hour min.).

lotaoto's picture
lotaoto

Hey, how is it going?

What we finally concluded helped me (1st fermentation of 2 hours and resting the dough all night long after the third fold-over). I've also been caring a lot about freezing the rolling pin and puting ice bags on the table to cool it.

This is my last bunch before autumn, I think I'm almost there!

We did a good job

 

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

Hey! Long time no see :) Great looking crumb, now it's just a case of tiny changes to get your perfect result. Really, well done! For me attempts have been less successful, but I'm trying out different things and have managed to get slightly better results than before. Last batch was pretty good - the outside was quite spectacular, with very good height and very clear layering. Inside was better than before, but it's still a mystery.... I'm pretty sure I know one thing now: my fridge isn't cold enough! I've baked croissants at my sister's, and the dough was definitely more cold. Well see what the future holds :) 

 

lotaoto's picture
lotaoto

Hello :)

Yess, now I'm happy with the result, it's not that tight crumb that I use to have and I could stay like this, but I guess with practice I will improve.

Which kind of crumb are you getting now? Is it the 'bread' type or the tight one?

Yes, it seems cold is VERY important. Have you tried with putting the rolling pin in the fridge and cooling the table?

 

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

Hi! Sorry for being so very late in replying. The thing is, summer came and so did a lot of work and obligations of different kinds (excuses, excuses, but still true). I kind of put croissant baking on hold for a long time, because I didn't really see any improvement and figured I could use a break from trying without results. 

I'm basically still getting the same 'bready' crumb. I made a batch with sourdough (no commercial yeast at all) yesterday, and while they taste great the crumb is bread-like, with a little honeycomb cell here and there. I seriously don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I suspect it has to do with keeping the dough even colder. That said, I have chilled the metal surface I work on, I have rolled out my dough in between 2-4 minutes, etc., kept it rectangular - all those things. So I think I'll have to make a drastic change if I want to start learning where I go wrong. 

Hope you're doing well, and that your croissants keep looking like the one above here :)

lotaoto's picture
lotaoto

Hi! I casually made croissants yesterday again. I didn't want to because here it's 30º and I don't have air conditioning or similar, but I went to France and I bought some good butter that was about to expire.

I still have similar results to the last one I showed here, and I'm happy. 

So, I'm pretty sure that what makes my croissants this way is COLD.

After all our experimentation, I started getting this results when I did this particular changes: freezing the table and the rolling pin in every step of the lamination. I'm also doing the short "first fermentation" and the long rest after the last fold. In the last batches I've changed the butter, I've changed wheat and kneading (making it by hand or with a machine). But keeping the other things regular, I've gotten the same results.

It's curious because in your update of april 11th it seems you are doing the same process as me.

On one hand, it's true that I was not having-bready crumb, I was just having the really tight crumb. So maybe your solution is still something different than mine.

Nevertheless, it makes sense that it is related to the cold, because it seems that bready crumb is the result of melting butter as if it was a brioche and not separated layers.

Let's hope for good news this autumn if you (we) are still on the go.

Have a good summer!

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

My last batch was actually a success story! The croissants definitely had a more open, cell-like structure inside. They were not as open as I want them to be ideally, but they had the right kind of crumb. As it happens, these croissants were made with a firm starter (no commercial yeast at all). I never thought sourdough croissants would be my first good ones...

The solution (for me) is as simple as this: everything needs to be colder, in every step. What I do now is:
1. let the dough spend 20-30 min of every rest in the freezer, plus and extra 10 min during the last roll-out (before cutting triangles)
2. chill my work bench (metal counter) and rolling pin (wood) at least 30 min before rolling out
3. let the croissants rest in the freezer for 10 mins after cutting them up

Actually, I think I could get away with chilling the dough more during the third fold or even the roll-out, because (as my pictures show) I've had very nice, clear lamination up to the third fold. So it is possible that I'm going overboard with this freezer obsession during rests (and proof time is definitely much longer because of it) but I want to make sure the layers are there. 

I have a batch of sourdough croissants proofing right now, will get back with results later...

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

I just made a batch of sourdough croissants that ended up rather bready, but I think that was due to overproofing them (a lot!). I'm officially giving up on sourdough leavening for a while, despite my previous success. It's just too damn hard to know when they're going to be ready . This batch was huge after 20 hours of proofing, but collapsed during baking. 

 

lotaoto's picture
lotaoto

Great!

Hopefully this winter everything will be easier for both of us.

I've done some batches this august, one two days ago. It was good I didn't enjoyed at all because here we have almost 30º and there was melted butter everywhere. Still I had good results with the 'cooling' routine. 

20 hours in the fridge?

 

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

Yes, I hope do winter will be better for us both but honestly, I don't think temperature is to blame in my case. But 30 degrees, that's insane weather for laminating dough O_O

No, even worse: 20 hours at room temperature. I didn't have a choice, because the dough hadn't risen nearly enough after the first 10 hours (probably because I chilled it so well between each step), and I had to leave for work. This is a shame, because it turned out just like before - this kind of bready quasi-laminated look was all I got for my troubles. Oh well. Here's how it looked:

Before rising: 
https://goo.gl/photos/NBez1fuhToNwhHmu9

After 10 hours:
https://goo.gl/photos/sUY49Ey1E7SZ4YPJ6

After 20+ hours....................
https://goo.gl/photos/CMxLDthbcUZJVVr88

Here's a few photos from the batch before (the successful one):

Shaped:
https://goo.gl/photos/8Xw1CnVuHAVufp6V8

Baked:
https://goo.gl/photos/dtFezFg34wMqDjvL8

Crumb:
https://goo.gl/photos/SJCzdwZEvVrgugKr9
https://goo.gl/photos/vM24hkAqh35CSadA9

I don't know if the last batch was actually good, because I think the overproofing killed the potential it had. 

lotaoto's picture
lotaoto

Yes, I think I did a god job with the cold, but every time I touched the dough with my hands I gos butter sticked on it. 

The 20 hours photo seems really on the limit, but I dn't really know if that could do this bready crumb. What I heard from some 'croissant masters' is that the more floofy the better. 

Resume: I really don't know what can you change yo improve the crumb.

By the way: how is the texture? is it airy on the inside and crunchy on the outside? It seems so by the baked photos.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

baking at a slightly lower temperature?

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/45932/croissant-dense-center-honeycomb-structure

or rolling up the croissants loosely or differently?

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

... not in the direction you're suggesting. In fact, I've been upping the temp for the first few minutes, even touching on 225-240°. Will try lowering the temp to the 150° suggested in that thread. In terms of shaping, I have to admit to the same aggressive pattern as with the temp, because I've only ever tried to roll them tighter, never more loosely. 

I'll have to this out, a big thank you for the suggestions. What always irks me is that I can see the laminations each time, but they seem to evaporate at bake time. Without being full of myself, I have to say that my sourdough croissants looked gorgeous up until the bake, in terms of layering. Also, I have had several batches that have had very nice layer separation on the outside (much like the ones in the thread you linked), but the inside is goo, or just bready.

Again, thanks. I hope to strike gold next time. Or maybe the time after that....

ETA: If these suggestions don't work I might opt for doing just 1 x four fold + 1 x threefold, and settle for fewer (but separated) layers. 

RickyHuynh's picture
RickyHuynh

Hi guys, I'm Ricky, I'm newbie in Croissant. I follow the recipe of Bruno Albouze and the taste is very nice. But, I have trouble with the lamination. My croissant is collapse. I don't know why. After that, I change to another recipe with less fat while mixing but it's collapse as well. I thought it's about my rolling method and today I changed to the 3*3*3 with French method when cover butter and the result worse than before. My croissant tear out afte I put in oven for 3-4 mins. 

Could you guys help me explain why ? How can I get beautiful Croissant like yours ? I want it puff up, not collapse anymore... Hope you guys help me. Thanks a lots. 

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

I do not feel like the guy you should be asking when it comes to croissants. I have gone through almost all possible variables to make my crumb better, without reliable success. That said, my croissants at least look good on the outside. 

Anyway, I'll give it a try:

You say that your croissant collapses, and if I'm getting you right that means it 'deflates' and becomes flat after you've baked it. Possible causes:
1. The gluten in your dough is not well-developed, possibly because the flour you are using is not suited for croissant making (too weak, perhaps)
2. You are rolling incorrectly, and making the butter and the dough mix with eachother instead of being separate layers. Croissants become puffy when baked for two reasons if I remember correctly:
a) the yeast in the dough releases gases which expand the air bubbles in the dough, and
b) the BUTTER is melting and producing steam which makes the croissant rise even more (also creating a honeycomb crumb if you're lucky/skilled)

It could be a combination of these two aswell.

If your butter has been absorbed by the dough when you're rolling it, I don't think you'll get the same puffiness as if the layers were separate. This has been my experience. The only thing I can think of besides all these things is that your croissants may be overproofed, which would mean that the gluten has broken down, which in turn would make the croissants flat. 

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

For example hubby brought home some salt free French butter,  "Bocage" from Bridel (Retiers Fromy, France) and it certainly has more ingredients other than butter fat.  He wanted me to use it in my Brioche and I refused, didn't know what would happen if I did.  The stuff stays firm even at 27°C!  And impossible to cut right out of the fridge.  First time I had to cut butter pats for breakfast guests to get the butter softer.  Don't know how it rolls out for lamination.  

"Contains: Vegetable hydrogenated fat: copra, buttermilk (milk), butter (milk), lactose (milk), acidifier: lactic acid, emulsifier: E471, coloring agent:beta carotene, natural aroma."   80% fat 

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

The butter I use is free of additives, and starts to stick and smear somewhere around 13-15°C. If I soften it a little bit too well it can start to smear at even lower temps. I think it behaves as it should, but somehow it melts into the dough during fermentation.

The fat content is 82% or higher, IIRC, but at least not below that mark. I will make a post in the general forums and see if anyone has encountered these problems, i.e.; croissant dough that shows clear, ample layering (even after shaping) but completely loses it during fermentation and baking. 

One thing though; I've been having recurring problems with both yeast and gluten development: 
1. The yeast doesn't work as expected. At 1,5% yeast (baker's percentage) the croissant are expected to double in two-three hours according to most of my books. I end up proofing for up to 6 hours+ and see my croissants sag even after two hours. I know, books are guidelines, let the bread decide, etc. but that is way off...
I should add that I use the freezer a lot to keep the dough cool enough - not all of the rest time is spent there, but at least 20 mins freezer time is used during the last two folds. I also put the dough in the freezer for ~45 mins after mixing it (of course, before encasing the butter).


2. Gluten development: for some reason, as I said, the croissants show signs of sagging and losing their shape during proof. By the time they are reach that requisite "jiggly" stage, they completely collapse during baking. At the same time, baking them before they've even doubled is only going to cause butter pooling and greasiness. The only benefit to that would be to see if the layers are more intact compared to a fully proofed croissant. 

Ironically I think I'll try going back to my old method, those croissants were at least better than the one's I'm pulling out of the oven for the last months. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

first before laminating?  Is that a silly question?  

This French butter spits and pops like crazy when tossed into a hot pan.  There must be a good amount of water in it.

Jaaakob's picture
Jaaakob

Not in my book, at least :) 

I don't dust the butter during when I soften it (just keep it packed up > beat > fold > beat, > fold +shape > done).
I have tried incorporating flour in the butter block, ~10% worth of the butter weight. It didn't make much of a difference, but I might experiment with if nothing else succeeds. I still learn things even with the failures, but what irks me most is that it pretty expensive (and wasteful) experimenting.