Hi there,
I've been trying to make pain de mie in my KA mixer with the dough hook. So this is what happens , when I start mixing on low at the beginning when the dough starts to from it pulls away from the bowl and wraps around the hook nicely (after about 2min), but as i keep kneading on low the dough eventually just puddles on the bottom. I just let the dough hook keep kneading for the amount of time called for in the recipe which is a total of 15 min on low. But the dough never does pull away from the bottom. At the end of 15min i just pull the dough out of the bowl and shape it into a ball for it to rise. I tried to do the window pane test but I don't feel it's a reliable test for me. I've had failed window pane tests where the final product turns out just fine. My loaf is in the oven now, so i guess i'll find out soon if the dough had developed enough but i find that it's not only with this recipe that I have this problem with. I always get a nice ball of dough after the first few minutes then it ends up just puddling at the bottom. I've adjusted the setting for the dough hook already so I don't think it's that.
Thank you for any insight you may have
LL
What is the hydration of the dough?
My dough in the KA behaves the same way, although I would call it "sticking", not "puddling" in the bottom of the bowl. I believe it's normal and is just the flour absorbing the liquid over the time of the mixing. Fifteen minutes is getting up there with a mixer, so the windowpane is useful in that regard. When the dough is adequately mixed, the bit I scrape from the bottom is not particularly sticky and is easy to handle, but I keep hydration around 62%. Overmixing can cause breakdown, but that produces a noticeable gooey miess.
TxFarmer and Mariana have posts showing gluten development. A search for those two would be informative. Here is one of Mariana's.
Thank you so much for your reply. You're right it's not puddling. After your comment, I think what could be happening is, when the dough sticks to the bottom it's not getting kneaded adequately. It's odd because I've used this recipe before in the past (with very little bread making experience) and my pain de mie had turned out beautifully. BTW, my loaf I was making yesterday turned out very dense but it did double in the first proof and had risen nicely in the second proof. also, when i pulled the dough off the bottom of the bowl to shape, i can't remember if it was stretchy and didn't break because I kinda lifted it out from the bottom. But for sure it was overworked. the dough was a little sticky but not too hard to handle after pulling out of the bowl but after the first proof when i was trying to shape it into a log it was stickier and harder to handle.. the hydration of the dough is 64%. I'm curious when your dough sticks to the bottom, do you do anything? Or just let it keep kneading? I was thinking maybe if i stop the mixer and scrape it so the hook can grab on?? there are a few other factors that i'm thinking of but it may not be why my loaf is dense because I've used this recipe with success before. Firstly, the 9x4 x4 pullman with the lid on , could that be causing the density because it's compacting the bread but I've used that pan before with the lid on which leads me to think maybe it's the flour type. Could i have used a different brand of flour the other times (can't remember). but i seem to remember my other yeast bread doughs being almost smooth and silky after kneading, not tacky at all. Anyway, thank you again.
Sorry i meant for sure my dough was not overworked yesterday
The Pullman pan could have been a factor. You can tell by whether the top is very flat, maybe with sharp edges. If it's not, and the top is flat on the center but has rounded shoulders, then the pan hasn't squashed the rise much if at all.
TomP
Thanks, but what i meant was maybe the amount of dough is too much for the 9x4x4 and the compaction is causing the denseness.
Yes, I know, and I said what signs to look for to see if the dough rose too much for the pan (which would mean the amount of dough was too much).
Your main concern seems to be that this mixer isn't developing the dough properly. I don't think the small quantity in the bottom of the bowl is a problem. A scientific member once explained that even dough wrapped around the hook is getting worked. I think that's what he said. Anyway, that windowpane test is important for this evaluation.
My similar dough is kneaded for 6min, at #2, in the KA. Dough amount is small--300 or 350g flour, so it's not the ideal mixing amount for the 6-qt, but still gets developed, along with the bottom stuff. I can only suggest mixing for less time than 15min and doing stretch tests after 6-or-so mins.
Thanks, but that's just it. The dough isn't getting picked up by the hook. I'm kneading at the lowest speed for 5 min and after the butter gets incorporated , another 10min. It's a 500 g flour loaf. I just adjusted the height of my mixer so I'm going to try again today. As I said, this recipe has worked for me before. A case of beginner's luck maybe. It's just that i notice this happened to all my doughs , not just this one.
The MASS of dough isn't being mixed? That happens when you add fat, so yeah, use a spatula and scrape it up, turn in the sides. It takes awhile. Sometimes, I cheat and crank it up to high speed. When the butter is thoroughly incorporated, the hook will work as it should--except for that tacky bit on the bottom. My hook is set as low as it will go and there's still clearance under it.
Thank you so much for your help. I kneaded for longer, kept scraping the dough off the bowl and pushed it towards the hook, turned the power higher. It took way longer than what the recipe said but the dough finally started to pull away from the bowl. I think in the past, I didn't know the concept of overkneading so I just let it go until the dough started to pull away from the bowl. As I read more about bread making, I started to worry about over kneading. So I started becoming too conservative. My second loaf turned out lighter. I think I could have kneaded even a bit more.
Which Pain de Mie recipe are you using? It's pretty difficult to over-knead, but I guess more possible in a mixer. I never knead beyond speed 2 on my KA - especially if a sourdough recipe. There are also visual things to help you. When you stop the mixer and the dough relaxes, it should appear much more smooth (less ringworm type bumps). I tend to use the dough hook just to where a windowpane -almost- passes (but tears). Then I put into bulk and begin coil folds every 30 mins for 2 hours (4 sets). By the 2nd or 3rd set of folds, you can definitely see the glossy sheen and smooth surface that is a telltale sign of gluten strands lining up!