Ive been trying Elaine Boddy's Master recipe. Using KA bread flour and tap water; starter strong.
Last two tries have come out VERY sticky! Sticks to bowl & hands. In her vids, after a first S&F the dough quickly becomes smooth with no sticking - seems to handle easily.
I'm guessing I need to reduce the water. Her recipe:
50g starter
350g water
500g flour
The dough is mixed and 4 S&F's are done before final proof.
I've often seen the tip to reduce water - but am always unsure as how much to reduce it by! Can I just reduce it by a moderate amount and if too dry just keep adding more (tablespoon at a time - or so)?
And add more if it seems too dry.
The best way to think about it is by using baker's percentages. That means to express all the amounts relative to the weight of the flour. Your water is 350g/500g = .70 => 70% baker's percent. I suggest trying a reduction of 3 percentage points, that is, down to 67%. So the new amount of water will be 0.67 * 500 = 335g of water. That is a reduction of 15g. This should make the dough fairly good to handle. If the dough seems a little dry, so that it's very stiff or hard to get all the flour hydrated, add more about 5g at a time. That's about 1 teaspoon's worth.
If the dough still seems a little wet, it should come around after a few more stretch and fold sessions. If it seems a little too sticky to handle, wet your hands with just a little water first.
Handling wetter dough is a skill that you can develop with practice and in a few months you may find that the exact same recipe doesn't seem that hard to work with any more.
Gary's comment suggests reducing more water than mine. He's not wrong (nor am I :) ), it's just that there is no one right answer, and we can't see and feel your dough.
TomP
Thanks! will try your numbers.
Very sound advice from GaryB & TomP.
I just wanted to ask a few questions, as I use KA bread flour often and I've never known it to be hard to work with at 70% hydration.
--how was the dough before your last 2 tries that have been so sticky?
--did anything change in your process since then?
--are you at low or high altitude?
--are you in an especially humid or especially dry environment?
--how much salt are you using?
--how fresh is the flour?
Cheers.
Rob
I am in Marlton NJ - very temperate. In a senior living apartment - quite comfortable. Very little salt - 2g or so. Flour was just purchased a week ago. I've tried the recipe twice, and both tries were STICKY CITY! I feel the British flour Ms. Boddy is using is very different from the KA bread flour i am using. will try the water reduction.
2g of salt for 500g of flour is quite low (less than 1/2 a percent by weight.) Elaine Boddy uses 4g, which is still less than half of what many bakers use (2% by weight seems to be the recipe standard.) I'm a low-salt person myself and seldom use more than 1%. Salt has a big impact on the feel of dough ... but it should still come together. Good luck & thanks for the quick answers. Let us know how it goes with the water reduction.
Rob
The salt is necessary for gluten development. If you are attempting to reduce your sodium intake try using 5-7 g. 10g/500g flour is what most bakers would use 2%.
You will have a completely different manageable loaf when you increase the salt. Good luck! c
AI's version of what Trailrunner said:
The optimal salt level to balance dough strength and stickiness is generally 1.8% to 2% of the flour’s weight. This range strengthens gluten, reduces stickiness, and helps with dough handling without making the dough too tight or overly salty. Going below 1.5% can make the dough weaker and stickier, while above 2% may make it too stiff and slow fermentation excessively. For most bread doughs, especially at 70% hydration, 1.8–2% salt is ideal for both structure and ease of handling.
It's a good point and I had not noticed the low salt content. I'm not sure how it fits in, though, because the original question concerned the difference between a video's dough and the dough made by the poster. If they used the same low salt content, they were still different in their handling properties. Heck, for all we know the amount of salt in the original recipe was a mistake.
I agree to just bite the bullet and use the conventional amount of salt.
... it's wrong 🤣🤣 ... at least for me.
These days, I bake with around 1% salt. It's a taste thing: that's the maximum amount of salt I enjoy without bread tasting overly salty to me. Yes, I tend to bake ryes and so perhaps have a high tolerance for sticky doughs, but I don't find my wheat breads are particularly hard to handle either. I regularly bake 100% hydration pan de cristal with 1% salt and it isn't sticky and comes out fine. I've also baked pane sciapo -- Tuscan bread with no salt -- at 70% hydration and that came out fine, too.
It all really depends what alan856's preferences are. If I were baking this -- and maybe I will -- or advising alan856, I'd start with what Elaine Boddy uses when she bakes her own master recipe --- 4g of salt, or about 0.8% by weight.
Cheers!
Rob
Rob, I disagree (and argue) with AI on a daily basis, but does he listen? No, he does not. He will tell me I am correct but continue in his incorrect ways the next time I ask the same question. Chatbots do not learn from our conversations, only from alterations in their databases (if that is the right term). A chatbot told me that.🙄
Anyhow, the salt answer seems quite reasonable for most bakers who are not expert at handling wet dough.
I asked ChatGPT if it was able to assess the quality of its responses. The answer: "No". Which is right in line with how they are known to work.
Just experienced it. I was following directives years ago that said “ salt kills the yeast”
“ develop the dough BEFORE adding the salt”.
All of those well meant instructions were of course meant to be taken “ with a grain of salt”.
I’ve been making yeast breads since the ‘70’s and putting things together in the order given. Always adding salt after the yeast bloomed and with other ingredients but well before kneading .
. I’d never made sourdough so was following the instructions. I’m so glad I abandoned all the steps and plunked everything in together because developing dough without salt is a much more unenjoyable task than with.
Everyone has their own ways . Mine is very popular with some folks and not with others . I’m all for the easiest route to an excellent outcome. I am glad I found it and share it for those who are interested.
Salt is definitely a factor in developing the gluten . To what degree I guess is a matter of experience, preference and taste.
I know nothing of AI except it grabs information and spits it out. I’m speaking from direct experience as are others.
I hope the baker reading this makes changes , gains experience and returns to share the results . Sharpened skills will definitely play a part.
Onice again TFL members offer up great chances to learn! 🙏 c
Start with their numbers - go from there. What more can ya do - depends on the above. Enjoy!
I found another version of the Master Recipe. In this version Elaine Boddy has increased the salt to 7g:
https://cotswoldflour.com/pages/sourdough-master-recipe
If we add the levain flour to the total flour (as I think we should) then the salt rate is 1.33% - slightly nearer to what most bakers would use, but still some way off.
But I agree with Rob; although salt does tighten up the gluten network, it's not totally necessary. If you look at King Arthur's Tuscan bread recipe, it has no salt and a hydration of 74.1%
https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/tuscan-bread-pane-toscano-recipe
Also, although I've never used King Arthur bread flour, I'm pretty sure it will absorb more water than most UK milled bread flours.
I would suggest trying a similar recipe, but using yeast rather than sourdough, just to eliminate any possible issues with your starter.
Lance
I've been holding off on another bake, but am ready to try with less water. Did not know how salt effects stickiness. Will def be back after next run.