Newbie Diastatic Malt User
Hi -
I am new to the forum, but an experienced (somewhat) sourdough baker that is interested in Diastatic Malt powder (DMP) as the next step ahead in this rabbit hole of a journey. I have solid knowledge and understanding of the basic scientific and biologic workings and of the the common techniques of handling and baking the dough. I have done my due diligence research on DMP and it use and benefits. I have some unanswered questions that I cannot locate the answers to. My basic sourdough recipe is 80% White Lily Bread Flour & 20 KA Whole Wheat - 100%, Warmed water -75%, Salt 2.1% I use Kosher, but any salt works, 100% Start - Starter flour is 60% White Lily Bread Flour / 40% Bob"s Red Mill Organic Dark Rye Flour.
My questions:
1. If Whole Wheat flour is very nutritious for the starter, why does it need DMP for a better raise?
2. I have read on several sites it is recommended to add between 0.5% - 2.0% DMP, I may be splitting hair here but if the Bread flour already has the DM. We figure the amount DMP based solely on the whole wheat flour?
Opinions are welcome, but explain why.
I don't see what you want to accomplish using diastatic malt powder. The White Lily bread flour is already malted. By adding DMP you could cause the crumb to become gummy or even collapse (if you used too much). You don't really need to try to add more to get your non-malted flour to have the same percentage as the White Lily.
As a checkpoint, I just baked a fine loaf of bread that was 80% unmalted whole wheat flour and 20% King Arthur bread flour (which is malted, or has added amylase enzyme which does the same thing). I got very good expansion of the loaf and a fine (non-gummy) crumb. No extra DMP needed.
Could it be that you think your loaves should rise higher? If so, could you post some pictures of a loaf and its crumb?
TomP
Hi Tom-
I'm happy with my bread. I would like my sourdough pizza crust to have more color and a different flavor profile. 100% White Lily Bread flour. I am looking for some Type 00 to try. But I wouldn't mind a bit more rise, without sacrificing the crumb quality in my bread. I chatted with KA and.all they would say is the AP and Bread have less than 1%. I found an unofficial source the said KA was .83% DMP added. And based on some videos I could start low and work up the amount. This is just experimenting and learning for me now that I consistently turn our loaves that mee my criteria.
Yes, those loaves look terrific, all right.
You could just try adding some sugar to your pizza dough...
My local supermarket for some reason sells Anna brand type 00, which is a product of Italy, and now they often stock KA 00 too. It's a surprise because this chain, Martin's Foods, hardly ever has anything very adventurous.
I have a container of DMP but haven't found a place to use it yet. I think it's the kind of thing that if you have enough, more won't be better.
You could scald some of the rye flour that goes into the starter. This would free up sugars. Here's a TFL thread -
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11812/rye-amylase
Yes, I should have thought of that. My yeast pizza dough has a small amount of sugar added. From Chainbaker.com: Sugar acts as a liquefier. It absorbs water, weakens the gluten structure, and makes the dough looser. The dough expands more when baking achieving an airier and softer crumb. It also makes it stickier and a little harder to work with.
I think I will try both sugar and DMP in separate trials. BOth additions have similar good and bad affects on the dough.
First I love that name!
And - try it - see what happens - adjust accordingly. Enjoy!
I plan on trying a couple different things with DMP.
I've improved color of both bread and pizza using Dried Malt Extract, which is non-diastatic, Basically added as a sugar substitute. I get it from home beer brewing sources.
Recently studied and experimented with both amalyze powder and diastatic malt. The available literature and products specs are scanty. Most retailers seem to have no idea what exactly they are selling and most recipes are less than specific. There is considerable diversity of diastatic malt products.
I settled on a 60 degree Lintner diastatic malt product and found that in test of my sourdough starter over a short period of time there was little difference in either rise time or rise volume. Over a longer (24-48 hour) cold ferment of a very lean traditionally yeasted dough, though, the diastatic malt seemed to make a significant difference.That experiment was guided by Tony Geminari's Pizza Bible. He specifies 2% of a low power diastatic malt (20 degrees lintner) so I used only 1/3 the amount.My preliminary assessment is that the added diastatic malt provided both better rise and color in that situation.
The amylase powder was a waste of time and money. The bread rolls I made with it wren't bad but there are just too many unknowns.I regret buying 1 pound of it. :)
No matter how little I used the DM makes a horrible gummy mess of the dough. But low and behold the converting by baking as noted in my link below is a game changer !! It imparts the most wonderful flavor and texture isn't affected adversely but is definitely improved by adding it to bagels and pizza dough most notably. I converted every ounce of the 1 # container I had and have never looked back. You will get enhanced flavor, rise and color all with a couple tsp/grams. It's definitely something that should be much better popularized and documented.
If you only have diastatic malt powder, but need non-diastatic, King Arthur Baking recommends spreading the diastatic malt powder on a sheet pan and baking at 350°F for 5 minutes.Feb 2, 2024
I've been including some malted barley flour, which is non-diastatic, in the flour mix for some bakes and I've liked the results, both with sourdough and soda breads. I'm not sure I would say it imparts better texture or rise, but the flavor can be pleasing. One example is 15% barley, 15% graham (whole wheat), and 70% bread flour.
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I'm not sure if the failure was cause by me totally screwing up the recipe I cobbled together or by adding 1% DMP to White Lily Bread flour 70% and KAF Whole Wheat. The malt flavor is too strong for my liking and the crumb is gummy but I did cut the first baguette while warm. I plan on trying one more bake with the DMP at a smaller %. and then will probably deactivate the amalyze as described above.
I found myself experimenting with diastatic malt after seeing many pizza makers and home bakers using it in Italy.
In both Italy and the UK where I am based, there is no malt/enzymes included in flour, unless specifically indicated, so it makes some sense to have it in one's baking tool kit.
I think that diastatic is popular in Italy because people are much more likely to use a biga preferment and what I found when trying to learn the technique is that, for some reason, the biga seems to drive up the fermentation activity substantially in the bulk ferment and this seems to use-up the available sugars quickly, leaving the final loaves a little pale, unless some diastatic malt is included.
But it is definitely the kind of ingredient where 'less is more'. I would not use more than (an abundant) half tsp per 400g of total flour. The line between a lovely tasty loaf with a fine crunchy crust and a loaf with a gummy crumb is very fine.
I have become more curious to experiment with malts after seeing how they are used in brewing. There were some interesting posts/discussion about using different malts here: Malt taste testers: chocolate malt, caramel Munich and biscuit malt | The Fresh Loaf